Date: 07-11-25  Time: 16:34 pm

Author Topic: No sympathy for Gunmen  (Read 16689 times)

slappy

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,797
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #50 on: 06 January 2017, 02:54:59 pm »
Mark Duggan wasn't carrying the gun in order to harm others..


How do you know that for certain? He was carrying a gun, there was always the possibility that he was going to use it. If not why was it a replica that had been converted to fire live ammo?

Bretty

  • Naughty Corner
  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #51 on: 06 January 2017, 03:02:32 pm »
If you're interested in police marksmen, I've just read Tony Long's book which is quite an interesting read and covers many of the details around most of the high profile shootings.

maddog04

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,569
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #52 on: 06 January 2017, 03:19:49 pm »
Tony Long was on tv not long ago discussing his work, very interesting. He went public and got all sorts of crap off people

mtread

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,007
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #53 on: 06 January 2017, 03:40:52 pm »
If he was going to use the gun, why did he throw it over the fence as he got out of the car?

Oldgit

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,331
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #54 on: 06 January 2017, 03:47:32 pm »
the Minimum, the Maximum, and the Fuck I'm---C**T got what he deserved.

pilninggas

  • Naughty Corner
  • Club Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #55 on: 06 January 2017, 05:08:39 pm »
If he was going to use the gun, why did he throw it over the fence as he got out of the car?

Is this a serious post?

Also describing Duggan as a 'minor criminal' in a in earlier post is outrageous. Minor criminals commit minor crimes, carry a gun (with or without intent, and no legitimate reason) is serious.

Don't people have to be responsible for their actions anymore? Straight out of the Shami Chabrabati school of liberal apologism.

tommyardin

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,836
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #56 on: 06 January 2017, 07:24:41 pm »
If he was going to use the gun, why did he throw it over the fence as he got out of the car?

Is this a serious post?

Also describing Duggan as a 'minor criminal' in a in earlier post is outrageous. Minor criminals commit minor crimes, carry a gun (with or without intent, and no legitimate reason) is serious.

Don't people have to be responsible for their actions anymore? Straight out of the Shami Chabrabati school of liberal apologism.


I agree with the last statement by pilninggas.
I don’t know the details of the crime or the specific offence/case.
If you carry a gun how is any police officer meant to know what your intentions are.
Even if it’s a replica gun how is the officer meant to know.
We are not talking school playground stuff here, the police put their life on the line, he or she possibly has a spouse and children at home who love and rely on him. They may also only have a second to make the decision.
Point a gun or verbally threaten to shoot a policeman with a gun and expect to get shot, if you not prepared to accept that you will probably die, don’t carry a gun.
It’s not unlike the sh-t you hear on the TV News most weeks of the year:
This is hypothetical by the way, I have not done it yet.
He strangled his wife when the state of his mind was emotionally unstable, upset and confused or he was in a state shock, well he may have been emotionally unhinged, confused, or his mind in a state of shock, or any other term you might like to use, but, he still strangled her, he took her life, he is guilty of the crime.
It might seemed hard because we don’t know how he had been (Hypothetically) provoked or what she had done but he still took her life.
Pilingggas said “Don't people have to be responsible for their actions anymore?and he is spot on.

Graham53

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 710
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #57 on: 06 January 2017, 07:38:18 pm »
I agree with tommy, if you carry a gun or get in a car with people with guns then you have made a choice and that choice is you risk getting shot by firearms officers.
Flip it around and if that person went on to shoot an innocent child , the outcry would be that police are not tackling gun crime.
I worked in south London as a bus driver and had a gun pointed at me and knives more than once and I can tell you it's fucking scary and the area I worked (Stockwell ) had a child get shot and crippled in crossfire from a gangs shooting at each other.
Gun crime is not something to be treated with mamby pamby attitudes 

mtread

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,007
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #58 on: 06 January 2017, 08:35:21 pm »
Yes it was a serious post. Obviously I was the only one who watched the documentary. He was being used as a gun courier. Serious criminals use them all the time because they know they are under observation. Often they use kids. They're not major criminals, and more than likely don't even know how to use it. Watch the documentary and then you'll know the facts.

tommyardin

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,836
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #59 on: 06 January 2017, 08:37:22 pm »
I agree with tommy, if you carry a gun or get in a car with people with guns then you have made a choice and that choice is you risk getting shot by firearms officers.
Flip it around and if that person went on to shoot an innocent child , the outcry would be that police are not tackling gun crime.
I worked in south London as a bus driver and had a gun pointed at me and knives more than once and I can tell you it's fucking scary and the area I worked (Stockwell ) had a child get shot and crippled in crossfire from a gangs shooting at each other.
Gun crime is not something to be treated with mamby pamby attitudes


Hear! hear! two other voices of reason.

pilninggas

  • Naughty Corner
  • Club Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #60 on: 06 January 2017, 09:14:40 pm »
Yes it was a serious post. Obviously I was the only one who watched the documentary. He was being used as a gun courier. Serious criminals use them all the time because they know they are under observation. Often they use kids. They're not major criminals, and more than likely don't even know how to use it. Watch the documentary and then you'll know the facts.

If you believe that any documentary will report the facts exactly as they are, then more fool you.

Graham53

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 710
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #61 on: 06 January 2017, 09:28:57 pm »
Yes it was a serious post. Obviously I was the only one who watched the documentary. He was being used as a gun courier. Serious criminals use them all the time because they know they are under observation. Often they use kids. They're not major criminals, and more than likely don't even know how to use it. Watch the documentary and then you'll know the facts.

If you believe that any documentary will report the facts exactly as they are, then more fool you.
Documentaries can be edited to suit the agenda of the editor / producer / production company
Courier or not he was carrying a gun knew,criminals with guns and knew what guns do/can do and was no choir boy I wonder if opinions would be the same if the gun that was " thrown over the fence " was picked up by a kid and used to shoot another innocent child. He didn't give shit when he did that like he didn't give a shit what the gun carried might do.
Simple don't associate with guns / gun runners / gun users don't get shot
Or it's a good excuse for some scumbags to go on a rampage for some new TVs and set bonfires and smash honest hard working people's property

mtread

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,007
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #62 on: 06 January 2017, 10:01:35 pm »
Yeh Yeh Yeh, all documentaries are fixed. So did you actually watch it? The documentary reported facts based on police evidence, video evidence, witness evidence, inquest evidence, the decisions of the inquest jury. I'd rather take my position based on those facts rather than subjective uninformed opinion.
As to whether he 'deserved it' well if you think also a kid transporting a package where he might even not know what's in it deserves to be shot and killed, because the police know it's a gun 'just in case they use it',  then I would suggest some people need to examine their morals.
Also, I'm glad I'm not a motorcycle courier.

Graham53

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 710
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #63 on: 06 January 2017, 10:36:47 pm »
If he didn't know what it was why throw it over a fence ?
No I didn't watch it I will admit it didn't interest me  but I've had a gun pointed at me ( could have been a replica but it looked real ) because someone wanted a free bus ride which was a pound then maybe it was a gun that he couriered that was in my face , all for a £1 bus ride !!!
I worked many years ago at kings college hospital A&E and I've seen more people shot than most, I've then picked the dead ones up from the resus trolley and put them on a trolley and then into a fridge in the mortuary so maybe my view of people that carry guns , traffic guns and gun crime is a bit more personal than most.




tommyardin

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,836
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #64 on: 06 January 2017, 11:06:23 pm »
Don't you just love a calm and reasoned adult debate about issues that effects each and everyone of us in society.
Well it may not actually effect us (as yet) but as someone earlier said if the police get knocked off the top of the pile as the biggest gang on the block it might just effect us soon enough. Hey I get the feeling we might be turning into a mini USA, if he/they carry a gun then so should I to protect myself. We seem to follow the USA in every other way, 40 years ago we were a nation of 10 or 11 stone guys, now most people are fat bastards, like our buddy's across the pond.
I bet that rattles a cage or two.  :lol

mtread

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,007
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #65 on: 06 January 2017, 11:34:22 pm »
I'm not saying he didn't know what it was in the Duggan case. I'm saying that the police didn't know that, and the documentary showed that he did not pose a threat when he was shot. It was a mistake by a police officer, and then they conspired to cover it up.
On the subject of turning into America, perhaps we should aim to be more like Japan http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38365729

Graham53

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 710
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #66 on: 06 January 2017, 11:43:09 pm »
Don't you just love a calm and reasoned adult debate about issues that effects each and everyone of us in society.
Well it may not actually effect us (as yet) but as someone earlier said if the police get knocked off the top of the pile as the biggest gang on the block it might just effect us soon enough. Hey I get the feeling we might be turning into a mini USA, if he/they carry a gun then so should I to protect myself. We seem to follow the USA in every other way, 40 years ago we were a nation of 10 or 11 stone guys, now most people are fat bastards, like our buddy's across the pond.
I bet that rattles a cage or two.  :lol
Noooooo tommy anything but emulating our American cousins .... well all have to ride Harley's believing they're good anything but that  :'(
Where did I put that gun so I can end it all  :2guns

tommyardin

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,836
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #67 on: 07 January 2017, 10:10:15 am »
Shoot first ask questions later...


http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_586df7c2e4b00729cab30968



Yeah but she asked for it, selling her wares around Buck House, (I've seen the Tea Towels) growing all sorts of 'plants' in the multiple green house in her back garden, she gets driven around in really expensive motors and has a gang of heavies around her at all time that are carrying pieces of hardware. Thinks she is untouchable.
I saw the video clip that was edited off the end of her Christmas speech when she finished off saying 'I'm a bad assed mother f----r so dont mess with me and my family' well there you have it unrefutable evidence, I rest my case. She will get her comupence.


I think she is great really xx it is people like the Queen that make Gt Britain GREAT. BIG hug for the Queen. Yeahhhhh!

tommyardin

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,836
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #68 on: 07 January 2017, 10:13:44 am »
Sorry about the last post, I had not had my morning meds, I am much better now :lol

mtread

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,007
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #69 on: 07 January 2017, 11:54:32 am »
All back on our meds. The weekend is here. Off our soapboxes and back on our bikes 😀

Graham53

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 710
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #70 on: 07 January 2017, 02:06:26 pm »
All back on our meds. The weekend is here. Off our soapboxes and back on our bikes 😀


Amen to that Mark
Medication taken
Soapbox put away
Bike out


Slaninar

  • Naughty Corner
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,329
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #71 on: 08 January 2017, 04:44:43 am »
Many years ago (before Dun Blane) I held a firearms licence and had a couple of pistols. One of these was a S&W .357 Magnum.
Around the same time I worked at Gatwick airport and had to attend an anti-terror training session at the police station. This was when airports were one of the few places you would openly see armed police. During the session they talked about the weapons they used and the ammunition. Their advise at the time was if a situation occurred in the terminal buildings, get behind the plant pots as their ammunition was "soft" and low charge for the sole intention that it would not pass through the targeted terrorist and would splinter up causing massive internal injuries preventing the terrorist from doing anything other than dropping down dead.
I must admit, I did take the piss a little as my .357 was a genuine S&W model whereas the plod version was a cheap copy into which they were not allowed to use the magnum cartridges as they were deemed too powerful :rollin

the MP5 they used at the time, and derivatives are still used now, have a significant range/accuracy advantage over a pistol with a 6" barrel so are the favoured weapon and the one used at all times unless they run out of ammunition on the MP5. Unfortunately, even the low powered ammo they use can still pass straight through a body at close range and unless it hits a bone, exits out the read of the body in one piece. It's a risk worth taking unless you are in a densely populated situation.

In my country (and most of Europe for all I know), 9 mm parabellum is the standard police pistol cartridge. Decent penetration, but not too much noise, flashing, and low risk of over-penetration (and hitting people behind obstacles). USA have a different policy as far as I know, using cartridges with better penetration, being able to go through a car door, arm, then through the chest to the heart.

Pistol ammo will hardly split up and cause massive internal injury - it's a moot marketing point IMO. High power cartridges from long barrels - yes, but not pistol ammunition. Unless you pierce the heart, or the brain/upper spine, "dropping dead" time depends on the target's mentality. However, I understand that airport police would use the ammo with minimal over-penetration ability, not for the purpose of criminals "dropping dead" more quickly, but to minimize risk of the police shooting injuring other people.


Personally, I'd love to see a law giving life sentence to anyone caught with a firearm, even if not doing any crime. Preventing firearm use to everyone, including the police (so criminals don't fear being shot at, and for that fear doing something even more stupid). Army and special task force to deal with terrorism and a few armed criminals. Maybe I'm too naive, but I think it would work.

lew600fazer

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,253
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #72 on: 09 January 2017, 12:35:18 am »

The vast majority of police officers and police forces would rather not have to carry arms. Society in the UK is making that choice more and more difficult every waking day. There is gun crime practically every night in and around the major cities and towns the length and breadth of the land.
Get caught carrying a gun 10 years jail minimum. Point and use a gun at the police, you have crossed the line and that should be 20 years minimum. Shot and kill a police officer life with no chance of parole.

darrsi

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,671
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #73 on: 09 January 2017, 06:49:47 am »

The vast majority of police officers and police forces would rather not have to carry arms. Society in the UK is making that choice more and more difficult every waking day. There is gun crime practically every night in and around the major cities and towns the length and breadth of the land.
Get caught carrying a gun 10 years jail minimum. Point and use a gun at the police, you have crossed the line and that should be 20 years minimum. Shot and kill a police officer life with no chance of parole.


Probably find that the common denomination with most of these street people with guns is drugs.
That's where society is going down the pan, it's a booming business, but where there's a big demand then these people will be around to supply it, and protect themselves and their business in the process.

lew600fazer

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,253
Re: No sympathy for Gunmen
« Reply #74 on: 09 January 2017, 10:22:27 am »
Darrsi, I agree entirely with what you say, so how about the Government remove the middle man and legalise drugs. The money raised by the sale of drugs could used to prop up the failing NHS.