Author Topic: Starting issue (Read 9858 times)

ghostbiker · « **on:** 25 February 2012, 06:23:31 pm »

Well was out on the bike today doing a spot of Geocaching. This ment there was about 8 stop/starts in 10 or so miles. for between 5 and 45 mins long each time.
As i left home the bike started as normal on the touch of the button.
1st stop it seemed fine also. but the 2nd stop it took maybe 5 seconds of turning over to start. (fast turn over)
3-4th stops same thing but sometimes took up to 10 seconds to start.
then on the next couple of tries it just wouldnt start at all, turned over for 5-10 seconds at a time and tried 4-5 times then finaly it caught.
by the time it got to the last 8th stop (was gunna be 12 stops but thought i wouldnt be able to so went home) again still wouldnt start. this time affter multi tries the battery finaly started to labour a bit so as i was on a hill at the time i decided to bump it. took a bit but it finaly caught on about the 3rd run.

when its running its running as allways, sweet and smooth. its just strugling to start.
once home i turned it off and back on stright away and it started. but i then waited 2 mins and it wouldnt untill the battery was allmost flat. so thats now on charge. but it was fine and is fairly new at about a month old and fully charged. bike was running and starting fine the last 2 days that i have been useing it. although last night i did slip on some fuel at the petrol station and droped the bike while getting off it. it went down slowly and controled with me pulling to try to stop it. it didnt "hit" the ground as such.

Now i am thinking along the lines of a stuck float maybe flooding the engine, might have got stuck when the bike was droped last night?
what else might it be.... over to the knowlage base of foc-u :P

sirgalahad3 · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 February 2012, 07:29:30 am »

Thats an odd one. Sounds like either too much fuel or not enough at the time of starting. If its to do with the falling over it may well sort its self out if your lucky. If one float etc were to stick the bike would start but only on 3 cylinders,your prob seems to be total loss ,is pump working properly,ie are you getting the prime buzz?

nickodemon · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 February 2012, 10:45:07 am »

Is there a strong smell of petrol when its turning over? Have you tried draining the carbs in case some dirt from the bottom of the float bowls has found its way into somewhere either keeping the float at the wrong height or blocking the pilot jets jets? Are all the cut out switches operating correctly?

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 February 2012, 12:29:48 pm »

A stuck float would result in fuel overflowing so it doesn't sound like that. I think the fall is probably irrelevant as the starting problem preceded it.

See how it is when the battery is fully charged again. Check the charging voltage on the bike and report back.

When were the plugs etc last changed?

ghostbiker · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 February 2012, 09:38:45 pm »

slept all day lol so havent had a chance to take a look.
Plugs were changed with a full service in june last year, since then its done a fraction over 5k miles plugs are iridiums
Battery was replaced with a new gel one less than 2 months ago

although i havent checked charging voltage today it was checked when i replaced the battery and was bang on spec from the haynes manual.
but will recheck once i get off my arse tomorrow

going by how well it was turning over for the first starts i wouldnt think it was battery related. it took a lot of punishment before it started to labour at all.

there was a smell of fuel when the problem was starting but there isnt a smell or fuel under the bike since i parked it up at home.
there is the normal buzz of fuel pump on start up and other than it not starting within 1 second of the button press everything else seems normal.

I didnt think about the fuel float being stuck would be just 1 of the 4 stuck so yeah thats a very unlikely one.

hope i will know more tomorrow when i try to start it again. battery is fully charged again and as i didnt let it run complealty dry it should be fine.

ghostbiker · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 February 2012, 04:27:06 pm »

well this is an odd one.
Went out today and bike as allways started at first touch of the button (with choke)
came off choke affter 2 mins idle and took it for a blast.
bike behaved faultlessly other than the tyre letting go a number of times. but its just passed its wear markers and the grip just seems to have gone from good to 0 in about 50 miles lol
anyway, clocked up about 40 mile then stopped. waited 2 mins and started fine, rode a few miles. stoped and waited 5 mins.... bike wouldnt start.
turns over like a good un but just wont catch. there is a smell of fuel but not realy strong.
affter a few mins trying it fired up and the instant it fired up it ran perfectly again.
stopped a few miles down the road again, waited 5 mins and again it wouldnt start. took a few mins trying and then it caught and away i went.
Parked up at home left bike for an hour or so and went out. started first press.
im at a loss

sirgalahad3 · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 February 2012, 06:49:03 pm »

Tank breather blocked,fuel exaporation,hot fuel pipe collapsing when no fuel flowing through it,pull pipe off pump and check for strong prime. Never turn it off?

tomlinscote · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 February 2012, 07:57:27 pm »

Not sure if it is a fazer prob, others will no doubt set things straight, but could it be fuel evaporation?
I had a 3500 Rover once and the genuises (?) at Buick, Rover or BL decided to route the fuel line around the block so after a small stop the fuel in the line would evaporate etc. A longer stop would not have an effect as the fuel cools enough to work normally. Just a thought..................

P

sirgalahad3 · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 February 2012, 08:24:26 pm »

oops typo exaporation = evaporation!

garysimmo · « **Reply #9 on:** 27 February 2012, 09:13:30 pm »

valve clearances?

ghostbiker · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 February 2012, 10:35:10 pm »

bikes at 30k and had valves checked 4k ago, little early but was under the tank anyway. all well within spec 4 k ago

Just seems odd the bike has not shown this problem in over 4 years that i have had it. then boom its there.
i doubt its a problem like the rover as the fuel pump would just feed fresh in surely?

the blocked breather is a possable as i did notice a build up of sand around the filler cap a couple of days ago, will check that over. oh the joys of living next to a sandy beach

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 February 2012, 03:02:16 am »

How long is the fuel pump 'clicking' for each time you turn on the ignition?

First start of the day, I'd expect a few seconds of priming but thereafter, it should just be a very short run. Any different might point at a problem.

The Male Whale · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 February 2012, 07:30:46 am »

Water in the fuel maybe? Your problems started after a fill up so could be related.

Turn the tank tap off and drain the carbs at the minimum although I would be sure and drain the tank too.

Whale

Tmation · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 February 2012, 08:32:04 am »

Coils breaking down due to heat soak when you are stopped? When riding they are cooled by the breeze, try leaving it longer before trying to restart.

ghostbiker · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 February 2012, 09:14:06 am »

Quote from: Falcon 269 on 28 February 2012, 03:02:16 am

How long is the fuel pump 'clicking' for each time you turn on the ignition?

First start of the day, I'd expect a few seconds of priming but thereafter, it should just be a very short run. Any different might point at a problem.

Normaly 1/2 - 1 second just a couple clicks (its deff fuel pump not exup btw the nose is very diff from the 2)
first start is closer to 2 seconds

Water in fuel would give constant issues though wouldnt it? used 3/4 of the tank so far and need to pop to taunton today so that will put me on red and a fill up.

leaving it an hour or more and it starts perfectly on the button so that might be an option. but would be unuseal for all to go down? as when it has the starting problem it isnt even fireing on 1, there is no attempt at catching untill it fires up on all 4.

will try to force it to happen again today and see what happens

fazersharp · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 February 2012, 10:01:48 am »

I had very simular starting probs- and it was the spark plugs FZS 600. But you said that yours were replaced. Its funny that it seems that when people have probs and say sparkplugs have been replaced - they always seem to be the iridium ones ! - I just put the norm ones in

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 February 2012, 12:13:06 pm »

Coils on the Gen 1s are usually pretty sound. However, the connection between plug lead and plug cap can become suspect over time. Consider trimming the leads and refitting:

http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59207

I'm thinking you have a combination of weak spark and if the motor doesn't catch immediately you're getting wet plugs.

ghostbiker · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 February 2012, 02:56:17 pm »

been useing iridium for years now, since they first came out.
as they are now just a couple quid a set more expensive i tend to use them and replace as service interval but every time they get replaced they look as good as new so have never realy needed to be replaced.
i dont buy in to most of the hype but they do seem to last well. as for the increased mpg and better bhp.... if its true then its such a tiny amount i have never noticed it.

Well an update.....
Went out this morning, started as allways on the button with choke.
ran it down the road for a few miles and parked up for 5 mins.
wouldnt start.
finaly once started i did a few more miles then parked up for 2 hrs while i did my odds and sodds in town. came back and started first time.
filled up with fuel, started first time and have now tried for the last 3 hrs to make it do it again and cant.
fingers crossed it seems to have cured itself. wether it was fuel or something else i dont know but touch wood it seems ok again.
will keep a close eye for next few days though.
very very odd thats for sure.

The Male Whale · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 February 2012, 03:27:30 pm »

I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave earlier.

It was fine before you fuelled up and was not fine after - ergo it is likely you had a crap tank of gas.

"When walking down the road and hearing hoofbeats behind, turn and expect to see horses not zebras".

The obvious solution is often the correct one and is no less worthy a solution for being obvious.

Whale

ghostbiker · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 February 2012, 03:45:45 pm »

never said it wasnt fuel, just it was odd how it only effected it at certain times.
its also why i wanted to make sure i got well in to the red before refilling so it was as much fresh fuel as possable.
but if it is as it seems and now cured (only time will tell that story) then i think as you say it can safely be put down to fuel
if it was fuel its the first batch i have ever had that has had that much effect on the running of a bike, maybe i have been lucky. it was Esso Fuel to which bugs me more than if it had been tesco or something. dont know why i should think one is better than the other but just niggles me lol

ghostbiker · « **Reply #20 on:** 05 March 2012, 02:01:24 pm »

Ok the problem is back, so realy onl went away for a day or so riding.
did it a couple of times yesterday but not for long and then today its been a real pain in the ass and 1 more added part to it.
While i was out riding i was doing around 60 and starting to line up an overtake when it just compleatly died on me. clutch in (thought it was something serious lol) and coasted to a halt. tried to start and just turned over.
ignition off and on a few times, each time trying to start and again just turning over. try it one more and it fired up with a very loud back fire (new boxers please) and ran as allways perfectly.

went to my local spanner and told him. problem is because its intermitent its a bitch to trace. i was lucky and when i tried to start it in front of him it didnt start.
He confirms as i said, there is deff no spark. turn it on and off a few times and it may or may not start. there seems to be no rhyme or reason.

Without me spending a small fourtune for him to have it in he threw two ideas my way that are mew ideas.
1 i had been thinking off ... the data tool imobaliser.... and the other is ignition pick up problem.
now he hasnt heard of one playing up on a fazer but has seen it on other bikes and it normaly shows up when the bike is warm. so it could be that.
problem is finding out just which problem it is.

Now i have a data tool imobiliser on the bike. it was on it when i got it at 3k miles and has never given any trouble. i dont know if it was factory fitted or not. the wires are hidden behind the rear panel so its hard to see but he says "some" yams have a plug and play type alarm plug, and you can buy a bridge plug from yam to unplug the data tool and plug in the bridge plug. anyone know about the data tool thing? its like a little tab fob that i touch on to the pad on the bike.

might get round to removing the rear end and looking for it to see but would save me time if someone happened to know.

Ghoti · « **Reply #21 on:** 05 March 2012, 03:32:09 pm »

I may be getting Datatool and Meta mixed up as I cannot remember which bike had which, but one or the other relates to a Datatool alarm

...

on my Triumph the 'bridge plug' has to be returned to the manufacturer of the alarm to prove installation. The manufaturer then destroys the plug (for safety). Triumph don't make more plugs than bikes (for safety). On ringing around, one Datatool installer said he could manufacture a bridge plug from the alarm plug, but this was not needed in the end.

Alternatively, on my 02 Fazer there was no plug and play facility and the alarm was wired in by cutting into wires. Don't know when Mr Yam put a plug and play facility on the Fazer for alarms, but I guess after 2002.

Most half decent mechanics can (or claim to) be able to remove alarms. Think it cost £25 to get the one off my Fazer [and it any theiving scroat is reading - before relacing it with a full singing and dancing, top of the range, super duper alarm - honest!]

I would blame the alarm/imobiliser, but then I'd blame them for anything wrong with the bike.

ghostbiker · « **Reply #22 on:** 05 March 2012, 04:18:06 pm »

Well the mech i spoke to wasnt sure if the fazer had a plug n play, just that some yams did. affter striping the back plastics and rack etc off i can say .... it has not got plug and play lol (2004). the damn thing is wired in via black wires and spread all over the frecking place to.
as much as i hate alarms and imobalisers this one has been problem free untill now. and to be honest i am not convinced at all its the problem now either.

As a side note and "maybe" related but doubt it, the fan fuse had blown. i did think to myself last week i had not heard the fan cut in when the bike is warming up on the stand. this is why lol

nickodemon · « **Reply #23 on:** 05 March 2012, 07:37:47 pm »

If i was a betting man i would put it down to the immobiliser. Had a crappy datatool on a zzr that did exactly the same thing. I also had an sv 650 that had the datatool disconnected because it had starting problems. Fazer's 2003 on.. have a plug to attach meta/datatool alarms. My mate wired a meta 357t to mine direct into the harness (More secure!) when i bought it new. Its now 7 years old and i'm wishing he had just plugged it in, so that if it packs in i could remove it.

ghostbiker · « **Reply #24 on:** 05 March 2012, 08:14:58 pm »

Had a thought when out just now, if its a short stop (most problems but not all seem to happen on short stops) i tend to place bike on side stand, if its a long stop i tend to use main stand.
I did think it might be side stand switch playing up but dose it have to be in gear for that? hmm random thought is all lol