Braking

[redfox1]

Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.

-Ditto

[Dave48]

I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end!

[Frosties]

I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end!

In simple terms - imagine a speed boat going at 40mph then throw an anchor out the back....that nose will come down 

[sadlonelygit]

try using the front brake when you're doing a wheelie. i use the back to get the bike upright quicker in S's on track or scrub off mid corner speed ........there'll be a video later on today fwiw!
not using both sets of brakes is like removing a carb from the engine

[Hedgetrimmer]

try using the front brake when you're doing a wheelie. 

Exactly what I was thinking. To get the front end down when doing a wheelie, you use the rear brake. I'm no physicist, but I guess the bike's forward momentum translates into a turning force at the rear when the rear brake is applied. I would imagine hard braking on the front has a much stronger effect in this regard, but then you have the weight of the whole bike, plus the forward momentum loading it. So it's about degree of control, comparing the two?

[celticdog]

Scream up to roundabouts and junctions, tighten up everything on your right hand side THEN pull in the clutch, shut your eyes and hope you stop on the right side of the give way line.

[unfazed]

Scream up to roundabouts and junctions, tighten up everything on your right hand side THEN pull in the clutch, shut your eyes and hope you stop on the right side of the give way line.

the fact your still alive amazes me 

[joebloggs]

I had a Katana that didn't have a rear brake at all, well it had a caliper with the piston etc removed, never once did I feel the need to use the rear brake, although a friend had one hell of a shock when we went around Cadwell park and swapped bikes halfway though a session lol

[celticdog]

the fact your still alive amazes me 



Me too!    Seriously though, I'm strictly an old school rider, 80% front 20% rear and 50/50 in very wet conditions.

[unfazed]

I have noticed that the "older and wiser" riders seem to be more inclined to use both brakes more often

[Grahamm]

Nobody's mentioned engine braking. I probably use it as much as I use the brakes.

The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.

This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...

[Val]

I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end!

In simple terms your bike moves forward - so there is forward force and inertia, the bike wants to move forward even if you disengage the clucth ok? Now when you apply rear brake its the same like you start pulling your bike backwards, the rear brake friction slows down the rear wheel and creates backward force.

What we have here is two opposing forces the sum of these 2 forces is a new force which is down and forward. What we have down and forward on a motorcycle? Front wheel. Applying rear brake also stabilizes the bike because it straighten and aligns the rear with the front (remember the backward force), and finally applies the down force to the front too to answer your question 
 
Too much use of rear brake not good because:

1. We already know the front gets loaded, but because we have forward force too that means the rear goes the other way - up. Extreme sample of the rear gone too far is stoppie. If you apply too much rear brake when the rear wheel goes up you will lock the wheel.
2. Rear wheel gives you the power for the movement - you can lock the rear by using too much engine stopping when down shifting and also been heavy handed and dropping the clucth. Slipping the clutch when you have downshifted more then one gear down is a good idea. Personally I found slipping easier for me than exact blipping.

The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.

This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...

I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?

The only problem I see is somebody can rear end me if I slow down with the engine only, hence making sure you touchthe brake lever just to light up your stop light is wise 

IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you 

And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it 

[darrsi]

I may be missing something here but can anyone explain to me in simple terms how use of the back brake loads the front end!

In simple terms your bike moves forward - so there is forward force and inertia, the bike wants to move forward even if you disengage the clucth ok? Now when you apply rear brake its the same like you start pulling your bike backwards, the rear brake friction slows down the rear wheel and creates backward force.

What we have here is two opposing forces the sum of these 2 forces is a new force which is down and forward. What we have down and forward on a motorcycle? Front wheel. Applying rear brake also stabilizes the bike because it straighten and aligns the rear with the front (remember the backward force), and finally applies the down force to the front too to answer your question 
 
Too much use of rear brake not good because:

1. We already know the front gets loaded, but because we have forward force too that means the rear goes the other way - up. Extreme sample of the rear gone too far is stoppie. If you apply too much rear brake when the rear wheel goes up you will lock the wheel.
2. Rear wheel gives you the power for the movement - you can lock the rear by using too much engine stopping when down shifting and also been heavy handed and dropping the clucth. Slipping the clutch when you have downshifted more then one gear down is a good idea. Personally I found slipping easier for me than exact blipping.

The advice these days is "Gears to go, brakes to slow", not least because in the IPSGA system (Information, Position, Speed, Gears, Acceleration), Speed comes before Gears, ie you slow down *then* change down.

This is, of course, situation dependent, but I was recommended that for changes in speed of more than about 10mph, use the brakes first as brake pads are cheaper to replace than gear boxes!

As for using the rear brake whilst cornering, the reason is that there's a trade off between grip and braking effect, if you brake too hard you are going to run out of grip and it's easier to recover from a rear wheel slide than a front wheel slide...

I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?

The only problem I see is somebody can rear end me if I slow down with the engine only, hence making sure you touchthe brake lever just to light up your stop light is wise 

IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you 

And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it 

"...In simple terms your bike moves forward..."


Yeah, i think you've nailed it there Val. 

[mr self destruct]

This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.


Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.

[darrsi]

This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.


Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.

As Celticdog said earlier, i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.


You must remember if you use the road properly with your wits about you, and even more importantly have decent trustworthy tyres that you have a lot of faith in and are always in good nick, then braking can change altogether as well.
If you're one of these people that chances tyres down to being illegal, or rides a few inches behind a low loader lorry, then more fool you when it rains.


Just to put a spanner in the works, this is how the Dutch do emergency stops, which i simply couldn't do as described, especially in the wet, but bear in mind they're probably stoned as well so couldn't give a shit anyway. 


Joe Bloggs, are you Dutch perchance? 


http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/

[Hedgetrimmer]

i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.

I can't remember what I was taught in the dim mists of time 


On the other hand, I also don't recall being taught technique for 'spirited' riding, or for that matter, how to deal with rough/loose surfaces etc. Different situations may call for different approaches to braking. Learn or crash.....ahem 

[unfazed]

 Brakes only stop the wheels,  it is how the rider applies that knowledge that stops the bike

[His Dudeness]

I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.

[andybesy]

The other thing about engine braking is because it happens at a steady rate it encourages planning ahead. You're watching what's going on ahead and coming off the throttle early and simply rolling down the gears so you slow in time for the junction or hazard ahead. The brakes are just for fine-tuning as you slow, and then brining yourself to a final stop should you need to.

I try to use them 80/20 as I was taught, but as soon as I'm unsure of grip then it's 50/50 or not at all, and just using planning and engine braking.

This of course is all day to day riding. I guess if you're in a race and approaching a corner then you want to be going faster for longer and in that case brakes are your friend, but this is not the type of riding that fills my days.

Andy

[Fazerider]

I use the rear (in combination with the front) in the wet, but its main use for me is in corners. Applying a slight drag, not significant in terms of actual braking force, just enough to keep the drivetrain loaded, makes for a much smoother transition between slowing down and accelerating.

[fazersharp]

I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.

also along with some throttle blip sometimes, clutch in, change down, blip throttle, new gear two fingers on the brake at the same time and a bit of back brake too. (i used to play the drums!)

[darrsi]

I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.

also along with some throttle blip sometimes, clutch in, change down, blip throttle, new gear two fingers on the brake at the same time and a bit of back brake too. (i used to play the drums!)

I think I know that tune. 

[Ebme Geek]

There's another question,
Which fingers do you use and how many ?
 
Depends on how wet it is 
 
Like balance and method, do what feels good 

[mickvp]

Which fingers do you use and how many ?
 
Depends on how wet she is 

Fixed that for you

[sinto]

I use whatever brakes I need at the time.
Could be front and back together.
Or just the front, or just the back.
It all depends when you need to use them and what situation your in.
As long as they stop you in time
So I voted for front and rear