HID Headlights

[b1k3rdude]

What is your problem? Tell you what, I am bored now,

I don't have a problem, I am simply stating facts. If people can choose to ignore them, they do so to thier detriment.

[PaulSmith]

What is your problem? Tell you what, I am bored now,

I don't have a problem, I am simply stating facts. If people can choose to ignore them, they do so to thier detriment.

The technical term for what you have been doing is "Expressing opinions" which of course, you are perfectly entitled to do. The difference between opinions and facts is that opinions do not require evidence where as facts do. And since you have utterly failed to provide any hint or suggestion of evidence, and instead provided a continual stream of unspecified carping and knocking of something that clearly provides a very real safety benefit to bikers, you will have to forgive me when I disagree with you and say; yes, you do have a problem.

If any of your opinions held merit, and you have expressed a lot of them, from the qualities of the reflectors to imperfections in the position of the low beam shield, then it should have been a simple thing to find supporting evidence for at least one of them. But no. Not even a single link to a crackpot or conspiracy web site and this despite all your authoritative sounding statements suggesting you're expertise. All you have done is bemoaned and denigrated and come up with one weak excuse after another for why it shouldn't work. The fact that I and many others have been successfully using HID replacements for H4 bulbs for  years simply hasn't entered your consciousness. Why is that? What gives you the right to assume that I drive around being flashed by one road user after another and am not aware of it? Or are you assuming that I am lying about the use and benefits of HIDs and want to trick other people into using them for some nefarious reasons? So I will ask you again, what is your problem. Please take your time to think about your answer because your behaviour is clearly not normal.

 

[b1k3rdude]

Everything I have said is fact based on common sense and first hand experience, all people have to do is look at one of these telescopic HID bulb's and they will see what I am referring to - period. Just because lots of people have been using HID kits for years does not mean that should be, and your use of the word successful is extremely contextual.

Can we just agree to disagree at this point,  all I set out to do was make the OP aware of all the issue's with HIDs, not derail the thread with a pointless ping-pong.

[AyJay]

i'm very drunk, so I might regret this post but.... I'm a fan of popcorn and a good argument. Understanding comes out of many arguments.

PaulSmith, please rebut every single one of the points that BikerDude has made. Just because you have measured 28.5mm from base does not answer the point about lateral free play, for instance. And what about overheating and longevity? I see guys with HIDs from time to time and many of them are clearly badly set up, uselessly and pointlessly dazzling other road users. In fact, I'd say the majority of bulb replacements are badly set up. The all in one separate spotlight kits complete seem ok though, probably because they are designed as a unit to work with HIDs. I seriously doubt there's much design gone into a 20 quid HID replacement that can be retrofitted to any number of bikes.

I am considering a kit and would like to know more, and I'd really like to know why you have to start slagging people with 'your behaviour is clearly not normal' type comments. That's just a fucking stupid slag off rather than a point or counterpoint and it undermines any argument you make. Someone disagrees with you and you call their sanity into question.. really.. ? Answer the questions.....

• did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
• is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
• all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
• The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector.
• And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
• A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
• And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.

[mark g]

Fuck me this is getting a bit deep    I only wanted some advice on HID's lol. For what it's worth my take on it is thus----If you want to do it properly so to speak buy a projector kit, the only issue I've got is the £150 odd outlay, for the sake of a £30 odd kit off ebay I feel it's worth a punt. If it's shit I'll sell it for a tenner and buy a projector kit, I think the main issue is folk don't know how to adjust the beam spread and they ride around with there lights pointing skyward.....not an issue with the std bubs cause there shit but it does become and issue with HID's. Hopefully I'll get out with mine tonight

[mark g]

ummm, spent an hour out last night, the lights are loads better than the std set-up but the beam is maybe not as good as I would like so I'll use them for the remainder of the summer and get myself some projectors in the winter 

[Fazerider]

As a shift worker, very nearly half my riding is done at night and I can tell you I'm sick to death of being dazzled by other road users. I can rely on having my view of the road seriously impaired at least half a dozen times a night.
Some of the time it's down to the oncoming bell-end having badly adjusted lights, but the rest of the occurrences are due to the layout of the road: when your carriageway is lower, when they hit bumps or a rise in the road, or you've a right hand bend ahead, getting a face-full of below-the-cutoff dipped beam is inevitable.
It was bad enough in the days when quartz halogen was the ultimate source of light, now HIDs produce 3 times the brightness, and are three times as bad for dazzle.
Cars armed with the things are bad enough, bikes are totally unsuitable for them. Aside from the shorter wheelbase meaning that the beam pitches up and down far more than a car does over bumps there is the issue of cornering… just how do you fans of these things stop the dip beam from reaching the treetops when negotiating a left-hander?

[mark g]

Your obviously not too fussy about seeing where your going then at night if your happy with the std set-up??, I must admit for a bike with twin headlights the yam does suck big time at night.

[Fazerider]

Your obviously not too fussy about seeing where your going then at night if your happy with the std set-up??, I must admit for a bike with twin headlights the yam does suck big time at night.

I'm not happy with the standard setup, nor is that what I'm using.
I just don't have HIDs because they cause excessive dazzle.

[mark g]

Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned HID is the way forward, I don't like the look of spot/daytime running lights even though probably work fine.


Each to their own I guess but I'll be getting a projector set in the near future 

[b1k3rdude]

Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned HID is the way forward, I don't like the look of spot/daytime running lights even though probably work fine.

LED headlights are being installed in all the latest bikes, they use far less power and are just as bright as HID. Hopefully there are ot will be after market kits that riders can fit to reflector based headlgihts without or less of the failings of HID.

[PaulSmith]

i'm very drunk, so I might regret this post but.... I'm a fan of popcorn and a good argument. Understanding comes out of many arguments.

PaulSmith, please rebut every single one of the points that BikerDude has made.
...

Hi AyJay, hope it was a good party. If you read the posts above you will see that I have rebutted, with evidence, almost every one of BikerDudes objections, but BikerDude has not one single piece of evidence supporting his claims. Not one!

For example, in response to his claims about 'the arcs in all HID bulbs being in the wrong place' I posted a photo of a measurement of a bulb. His response was to ask if I measured from the centre of the arc, a question you have repeated. His 'knowledgeable' posts would suggest that he had some familiarity with the specifications for a H4 bulb so this would seem like a reasonable question. I then posted the H4 specification and there is no measurement to the centre of the arc. The measurement is to the break point where the high beam ends and the low beam starts, in other words, exactly what was shown in the photo I posted to rebut his daft comment about them all being wrong.

Maybe you think I was slagging him off about his behaviour, but I wasn't. He has has repeatedly suggested that he has experience and expertise in this area and has repeatedly demonstrated his lack of knowledge. Even among natural bullshitters that is not normal behaviour. He has repeatedly come up with wilder and wilder reasons why aftermarket HID bulbs could not possibly work. Despite the evidence that they do. That is not normal, and it is borderline unhealthy. 

But just to satisfy your curiosity...

• did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
• A. No. The measurement is of the breakpoint between low and high beam. The arc was measured to be in the correct position relative to the break point in both low and high beam modes. 
  
• is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
• A. Of course there is lateral movement because there is movement. But the 'flapping' referred to is probably twice what you would get from the coiled filament of a standard bulb and in no way could it be enough to affect the alignment.
  
• all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
• A. What can I say. The bulbs I photographed had their shrouds in the correct place. Can you show an example of a faulty shroud?
  
• The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector.
• A. I find this surprising given that the arc is producing three times the lumens of a traditional bulb. Of course a larger hole would increase the light exposed but it would also increase the risk of light going where you don't want it and causing dazzle. 
  
• And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
• A. have you any evidence of heat damage to the back of the bulbs? I haven't seen any. Given that the solinoid is moving the bulb holder, which is designed to carry a plasma arc, I would not have expected the solinoid temperature to be an issue, but if you have evidence, I am open to correction. 
  
• A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
• A. Are we talking about the same bulbs? I haven't encountered any that were 'screwed in'. Water sealing of the headlamp unit is performed by the rubber boot not be the bulb/baseplate assembly. The same boot that is used with standard bulbs. 
  
• And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.
• A. You are right. I rarely get the promised three to ten times the life of a standard bulb and usually have to settle for two to five times the life.
  

[PaulSmith]

Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned HID is the way forward, I don't like the look of spot/daytime running lights even though probably work fine.

LED headlights are being installed in all the latest bikes, they use far less power and are just as bright as HID. Hopefully there are ot will be after market kits that riders can fit to reflector based headlgihts without or less of the failings of HID.

! No longer available

Some interesting information the use of LEDs in a reflector designed for point source here.  (If you are easily bored, skip the first 22 minutes)

[mark g]

I watched this guy recently, this was one of the reasons I didn't go down the LED route, point to note though this dude wasn't happy with HID either, check out his other vid.

[AyJay]

Thanks for the info! I'm still kind of baffled as to why so many bikes with these are dazzleships though.

[b1k3rdude]

• A. No. The measurement is of the breakpoint between low and high beam. The arc was measured to be in the correct position relative to the break point in both low and high beam modes. 
  
• A. Of course there is lateral movement because there is movement. But the 'flapping' referred to is probably twice what you would get from the coiled filament of a standard bulb and in no way could it be enough to affect the alignment.
  
• A. What can I say. The bulbs I photographed had their shrouds in the correct place. Can you show an example of a faulty shroud?
  
• A. I find this surprising given that the arc is producing three times the lumens of a traditional bulb. Of course a larger hole would increase the light exposed but it would also increase the risk of light going where you don't want it and causing dazzle. 
  
• A. have you any evidence of heat damage to the back of the bulbs? I haven't seen any. Given that the solinoid is moving the bulb holder, which is designed to carry a plasma arc, I would not have expected the solinoid temperature to be an issue, but if you have evidence, I am open to correction. 
  
• A. Are we talking about the same bulbs? I haven't encountered any that were 'screwed in'. Water sealing of the headlamp unit is performed by the rubber boot not be the bulb/baseplate assembly. The same boot that is used with standard bulbs. 
  
• A. You are right. I rarely get the promised three to ten times the life of a standard bulb and usually have to settle for two to five times the life.
  

• In this instance you need to measure the center point of the arc at hi and lo beam, otherwise what's the point.
• Try several millimetres - which is enough to complete screw the beam pattern - and this is the case for every Telescopic HID kit I have seen in the flash (that's over 10)
• From my experience, if the inner baffle is smaller than a thumbnail (15mm*15mm) that its too small - I have some old HID bulbs I can use to demonstrate my point.
• The reflector is not "seeing" all of the arc,part of the light is being obscured by the outer baffle.
• The issue is that when the HID bulb is in the hi beam position the solenoid is drawing current. Any solenoid drawing generates heat, and at an educated guess I bet in addition to the HID arc itself its pulling more on hi-beam than a Halogen bulb would be.
• To get a H4 Hi/Lo in a HID kit the bulb has to move in and out -

  video

  and this also reminded me of another point, as the bulb moves in and out - on most kist the bulb dosent stay perfectly central to the center axis.
• out of the 10 HID I have used/fitted, on half of them either the bulbs or the ballasts needed replacing in under a year (1000hrs @ 20hrs per week) and some under 6 months. That's far far less than the advertised 3000hrs

Some interesting information the use of LEDs in a reflector designed for point source here.  (If you are easily bored, skip the first 22 minutes)

Nice find -

• glad to see the chap in the vid reiterating what I have been saying about hid's.
• and regarding the LED bulbs he had, I could straight away they were not going to work because -

• They were not genuine CREE LED elements, physically too small and the night time shot confirmed that.
• The position of the LED elements were wrong, firing from the side. For any home of hi/lo use,  the LED elements need to be in the same position as a normal tungsten halogen bulb
• the outer baffle blocking any use of a hi-beam.

The guy was spot on, only worth $9. I have a set of H4 LED that look physically like they would be a direct H4 hi/lo replacement, but because as the LED elements weren't CREE I got a full refund and the seller never ask for them back (proving he/she knew they were shit from the off)

Thanks for the info! I'm still kind of baffled as to why so many bikes with these are dazzleships though.

Its because -

• The position of the arc bulb within the main glass envelope is almost always incorrect, so you get a poorly focused beam causing scatter (light to be reflected where its not supposed to be)
• The light output from a HID is just to powerful, from the point of view that the stock reflector was only designed for a 55/60W bulb putting out 900-1000 lumens. So any scatter present from H4 bulb is low enough in light intensity not to cause significant amounts of dazzle. Introduce a HID bulb that puts out 3500+ lumens and that same scatter  is 3.5x+ times brighter so far more noticeable..!!
• Then there is the telescopic HID bulbs, most of which are so poorly designed and constructed that there is enough freeplay to allow them to wobble and jiggle around as the bike is in motion, vastly making points 1 & 2 much worse.
• And lastly we have the arc itself which isn't actually fixed, its also moves about aswell.  Yes only a few microns but enough that it could also potentially contribute the point 1 & 2.

[PaulSmith]

Thank you. That is the first piece of evidence you have posted. A You-tube video. That it contradicts some of your points is a little embarrassing but it is great to see that you are finally using evidence. 

1. measure the center point of the arc
Let me try again. You do NOT need to measure the centre point of the arc. Look again at the specifications that I posted. There is NO measurement to where the centre of the light is. There is a measurement to the position between the low beam and the high beam where the light isn't.

The position you measure is the gap between the low and the high beams.

The place where there is no light coming from between the high and the low filaments is the place you need to measure. It  needs to be certain distance from the baseline.

A H4 bulb can give off light from two different positions. The high beam position and the low beam position. The position of the low beam must stop before the high beam can start so the reflector can do its job.

You claimed that all HID bulbs where made with the light source in the wrong position. The specification I posted shows how to measure a bulb. The picture I posted shows a bulb being measured. The position in the picture matches the position in the specification proving that the light source is in the correct place, proving that your claim is wrong. That is the point.

2. Try several millimetres
Try some evidence. Even the video you posted shows that the lateral movement, if it could be measured, would be less then a 10th of a milimeter. That is not enough to affect alignment.

3. Baffle hole that its too small
Too small for what exactly?

4. The reflector is not "seeing" all of the arc
Again, some evidence would help. Or, at the risk of repeating myself, so?

5. ...its pulling more on hi-beam than a Halogen bulb would be.
Now you are just making shit up. Why don't you measure the resistance of the solinoid on one of the many HID bulbs you have lying about and apply ohms law to determine its current draw. You can even impose worst case weak battery/damaged alternator scenario and calculate draw at 10 volts instead of 12.

6. ...bulb dosent stay perfectly central
Now I am repeating myself. So? Or if you prefer, I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply provided to question 2. 

7. ...That's far far less than the advertised 3000hrs
True. That said, they are fitted to a motorbike and not sitting on a test bench.  I never got the advertised life out of a traditional bulb either but it is not like a failure is going to leave you stranded since everything is doubled up. That said. I do carry a traditional H4 bulb under the seat when I am going on longer trips.

Now to LEDs.
CREE are a manufacturer, not a bulb type. You would get almost exactly the same results with LED replacements for H4 bulbs from any other manufacturer. The problem is not who makes them, or what type emitter is used, or the position of the LED elements, (which by the way are as 'right' as it can be given the nature of LEDs), it is much simpler than that. As I have mentioned more than once, LED emitters are not point sources. LEDs are surface mounted with the light being emitted perpendicular to the surface. Yes there is a lot of spread, but none of the light can go through the surface so full surround reflectors (the type you get with H4 bulbs etc.) are not a lot of use. The result is clear from the video. The light source emits as much or more light (in Lumens) as traditional H4 bulbs, but the direction it is shining in means the reflectors can not point much of it down the road.

And finally -
The position of the arc bulb within the main glass envelope is almost always incorrect...
No it fucking isn't as I have proven.

The light output from a HID is just to powerful,
Correct. Pity the rest of the sentence is bullshit. You used this argument the last tim eyou tried to knock HIDs and I proved, using MOT documents, that the test is for the pattern which is correct or it isn't. The intensity is neither measured not important.

 there is enough freeplay to allow them to wobble and jiggle
I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply provided to question 2.

arc itself which isn't actually fixed
I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply provided to question 2.

[b1k3rdude]

@PS, I really don't know your issue is but, you have gone out of your way to pick holes or just be plain argumentative with every point I have made. On several occasions you have demonstrated that your grasp of the technology is highly subjective, so to that end I have lost any and all interest trying to explain the facts, that are obvious to everyone else but you.

[7omly]

I'm thinking of fitting  HIDs and asked my mate (MOT Inspector) about legality. His reply was the only specific criteria for motorcycles is they musn't dazzle other road users. So when I get them fitted i will take them down to his beam alignment machine and have them set up properly. I figure if HIDs are 300% brighter than halogens then i can afford to set them a little lower than normal to avoid dazzle. With regards to bulb life, i once paid over £27 for a pair of Osram H7 Nightbreakers which although fitted to a car lasted less than 5 months. Anything fitted to a motorcycle gets an hard life due to vibration, extreme temperatures and exposure to the elements. You can buy two HID lamps off ebay for under a tenner, if I had to pay £20 a year to be able to actually  see at night I'd be happy to.

[PaulSmith]

@PS, I really don't know your issue is but, you have gone out of your way to pick holes or just be plain argumentative with every point I have made. On several occasions you have demonstrated that your grasp of the technology is highly subjective, so to that end I have lost any and all interest trying to explain the facts, that are obvious to everyone else but you.

Remember that we talked about this before. Facts and opinions are not the same thing. You are entitled to your opinions but facts require the support of evidence.



I have picked holes in every argument you made that had holes in it. The difference is that I did not rely on my expertise or experience, I provided evidence. The facts that are obvious to everyone are: HIDs are three times brighter then traditional bulbs, HIDs use a third less power then traditional bulbs and (currently) HIDs are cheaper then traditional bulbs, but if you are the type of person who does not know or care about how to align their lights correctly, then they are probably not for you. The one new fact that I have learnt is that HIDs have 'haters'. People who believe that HIDs are abominations that must be stamped out. It appears to be a religious belief as the facts, evidence and the truth does not seem to matter to these people. I have been lucky enough to have never met one before, but now I am a little wiser.

[b1k3rdude]

I'm thinking of fitting  HIDs and asked my mate (MOT Inspector) about legality. His reply was the only specific criteria for motorcycles is they musn't dazzle other road users.

While your at it get the 4300k kits because 1. as you go up the temp range thew lumens drops (so 4300K bulbs put out the most light),  2. 4300 is the closest to white and its a legal req. that front facing light be white.

[Just Fazered]

Jeez, I started reading some of this rambling debacle regarding HID Vs H4 Vs LED lights, then realised I almost nodded....off!

It's true, the lights on but nobodies in 

[tnfazer]

As much as I like a good argument, I am thinking about skipping HIDs and going straight to LED replacement bulbs based on some positive press reviews I've read. Admittedly without much expertise the hi/lo switch seems simpler with LEDs, and that's anyway the way the world is going. I'm retrofitting my home lightning gradually with 4000K LEDs and wonder why other people bother to sit in the dark 

I don'r ride that often in the dark, but when I do I want to light up the woods to minimize the chances of barreling into a moose or a deer (and heck, I just got warned yesterday about wild boars in the area I'm going to next weekend).

Anyone tried or thought about these?
http://www.cyclopsadventuresports.com/3800-Lumen-H4-LED-Headlight-bulb-_p_83.html

[PaulSmith]

The issue with LEDs is that they are surface mount light sources and not point sources. That means the light shines away from the surface and not evenly in all directions. Have a look at the picture in the link you provided and you will see what I mean, it shows the emitters side on. No way are you going to get the same amount of light as head on. You might get lucky and pick a bulb where the direction of the light suits the reflector you have really well, but then again, you might not.

Your lights do two jobs; they let you see and they let you be seen. LEDs are excellent for being seen because the provide an intense light very close to daylight, but because it is very hard to focus it without a properly designed reflector, they are not so could when it comes to seeing what is there. If you did mainly city driving, they might be fine, but I would not recommend them for avoiding the wildlife.

[bludclot]

fwiw i changed my side light bulbs for LED in order to be seen better. i changed my dipped/main bulbs for LED and they were terrible (main beam didn't even work!), so opted for Osram Nightbreakers. i find these to be a bit better than standard bulbs, probably worth about the £12 or so from ebay.