Earnings

[noggythenog]

I get the point about firepersons not being fit enough at 55-60 but instead of retiring at whatever they do now surly there must be something else they can do within the fire service. and the "climb ladders in full breathing apparatus to rescue someone-possibly unconscious" argument is always used and I actually agree with it but not all fire personal at the fire will need to go up the ladder - just send the young uns up while they hold the bottom.
At 59 if they are not fit enough they could train/teach others - do all the community fire safety awareness stuff I would of thought there is loads they could still do.

I agree with you a bit here Fazersharp but I think that in actual fact that the crews probably already do this as blokes ie the young guys take the hard jobs and the old hands do the easy ones....all very well until a watch is made up that doesn't take into account a variety of ages and you could end up with a whole bunch of geriatrics with nobody able to do anything or on the flip side a whole bunch of fit young guys yet none of them have any experience.

And I also think that it is harsh if someone has paid out extra from their pay packet for 20 years to get a pension and then is told oh no you cant do the bleep test so you're now not getting the pension.......do they get back all of the extra that they paid in then?.....at then end of the day it is constructive dismissal........but guys can be fit and healthy at 60....it is possible........except it isn't fitness that will stop them as that can be trained albeit a bit more harder as people age but it is the joints seizing up etc that you just cant really stop.....general wear & tear.......I think if someone is just a fat bloater and smokes and takes no interest in health then ok fair enough punish him for it but if it is just age then it is wrong.

But experience at a fire or incidents is just as important as fitness I think.

it just opens up a can of worms.....should we now say that a heart surgeon shouldn't be able to practice passed the age of 40 because by then his mind isn't as sharp as it was when he was 20.....or because he doesn't have quite the same dexterity.have a test...ok not as sharp....you're sacked mate!

Or what about a test for politicians.......left alone with a pie.......will they put their finger in it.....yes....ok you're promoted.

[BIG MAC]

If I have to work my tits off until retirement age then I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to the fire service. However there needs to be a rank such as 'senior firefighter or some such' which applies to those not fit for frontline duty. I do believe the firefighter remit could widen out to even a building control function wher ethise no longer frontline actually impose the building regs instead of some spotty BC surveyor fresh out of uni who doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

If I have to work my tits off until retirement age then I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to the fire service.

What is the retirement age these days?  Have the Tory scum bags moved it to 70 yet?

But anyway look at it this way, say the retirement age is 70, and the average joining age 20.  Now a lot of people are gonna struggle past 50.  At work I don't think we let folks over 50 use breathing apparatus.  So you have a fighting fit fireman for 30 years hopefully, and then reduced duties for 20 years.  Well I reckon, if you do the percentages it won't work.

Now talking of retiring at 70.  Well if you sit on your fat arse pushing a pen or tapping away at a keyboard, well working to 70 shouldn't be too hard for most folks.

But if you are a fireman, or roofer, a scaffolder, a mechanic, a joiner, a carpet fitter - do I need to keep going?  Sure a few might be able to keep going but a lot of folks doing those jobs will be shagged well before 70.  So watch out for the Tory scum bag filthy robbing bastards foccing a whole load of folks who have worked hard, whose working life is done but they won't be able to claim a pension.

I mean I despair, this is a rich country, but you are getting screwed by a stockbroker PM and his cabinet of privately educated privileged millionaires, and their buddies who own the big media outlets are pulling the wool over your eyes.

People are obsessed with immigration, the EU, what benefits people are claiming, what their next door neighbour gets paid, who gets what pension, we fight over pennies amongst ourselves while the rich and the elite line their pockets.  Doh!

[lew600fazer]

In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.

I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment  and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

[slimwilly]

So Mr VNA,,serial Tory basher, the elected or joined up elected party is ruling now,,who the hell do you suggest to put the country how YOU want it?


You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself


There is a HUGE amount of people doing their own thing and making a good job of it, do you think they worry about some mouthy union man pouring his heart out on here?


well




wellll

[noggythenog]

In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.

I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment  and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

Lew.......you've foccin trumped me there bud fair play....that's a foccin tale to tell........bloody harrowing.........perhaps there aint many folk that would hear it if things were otherwise i accept that............foc sake..........a perfect example of how all the theoretical systems in the world cant account for the human factor.........blimey...........so there was a clear divide back then regards above and below deck.....thats a real shit story honestly.....like the sort of shit we see on all those space movies...actually may i suggest you dont watch Gravity....or sunshine.........i can only imagine really coz ive never beeny in that place....i wonder is it actually more traumatic to you knowing now what that tosser was gonna do to you because surely at the time you were unaware and otherwise disposed...


But it still dont mean that our services dont do a bloody good job.......ok its 2 different worlds....but i bet if the services had the chance that they would have demonstrated a more robust commitment than that captain...but they wouldnt be under the same pressures as him as a sole man...whilst holding a watch and all the rest.....still not excusable coz he shouldnt have gone into that line of work....but....and i bet that it was his own fears and incapabilities and absolute cultural dis attachment in the end.....and ....I'm sure of that.........but at the ended of the day it is the cultures that are to blame....not the individuals......individuals who are weak just dont help.

[noggythenog]

So Mr VNA,,serial Tory basher, the elected or joined up elected party is ruling now,,who the hell do you suggest to put the country how YOU want it?


You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself


There is a HUGE amount of people doing their own thing and making a good job of it, do you think they worry about some mouthy union man pouring his heart out on here?


well




wellll

Oi


I actually agree with VNA on some of these recent points.




Everyone is a bunch o bar stewards.


But tbf VNA highlights that everyone who works for someone else and does anything manual is gonna be screwed over in old age...thats a fair point...its pretty obvious.




Fair enough the manual workers who work for themselves are different as they can account for the facts and plan for the future...do a few books....some sort of pension...bit o blagging.....they are entrepeneurs at the end of the day..they were always gonna have the savvy to do well.




But if you're one of the manual workers who works for someone else because they'd either lack ability or the will to go it alone then you better get hoping for a long and painful death because thats what youre gonna get mate and nobody will give 2 shits what illegal rave you went to when you were 25...sad but true......better off going to sea now or being in the forces and being shafted in other ways.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

You are so shit short sighted and dont seem to notice the ,millions of folk who ARE British and doing alright now and have for a while,,spending what they earn by getting off there fucking arses and going and working and earning a living , do you notice how many new cars there are driving around,how many tidy old,new houses you might want to live in yourself

Like me?  My salary is well above average, got a nice old detached house, umm a 12 year old VW that I've been driving for last 9 years (it ain't broke, drives nice, so not gonna waste money on a new motor), I got a nice final salary pension lined up too (if it hangs in there).  So yeah I'm doing quite nicely, I'm all right Jack, but that doesn't stop me seeing what's going on and caring about it, and being pissed off at millions getting done over by neo liberal thieving immoral scum bag bastard tory foccers. 

OK?

So rather than attacking me, you could have a bash at addressing the points I've been making.   

[fazersharp]

In my earlier post I never actually managed to say what I wanted to at the time of posting, re rescue , recovery etc!
I had my 1 year old Grand daughter crawling all over me and wanting to play wish her a happy birthday she was 1 today.

I was on a tanker a few years ago and we had a bad engine room fire. We were ordered to evacuate the engine room as we were going to seal the space and hit it with CO2, best option as the sooner we did that the less damage caused to equipment  and with luck we could get under way again if possible.
A strict rule is before you discharge CO2 is you do a head count. We were one man short, the old man told the C/eng to discharge the CO2, he refused until we found the missing man. Thankfully we found him within 10 minutes alive and well but disorinientated. We as a group had failed in our training and the buddy buddy system. The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

Got to reply to this but I don't know what to say I read thinking boring story and then right at the end BAM! Like I sad earlier what lives we all have had and are having

[VNA - BMW Wank]

The Captain wrote a shit report and tried to get the chief engineer sacked for refusing to discharge the CO2. Thankfully I never sailed with that Captain again. I was the missing man.

Promote that Captain now!

I do remember my first fire training.  A lot of it was done in welded together shipping containers, two stories high with hatches and vertical  ladders etc.  Some where on the ground floor a massive bonfire was lit, water was run through the complex to keep it cool and stop the containers distorting (or going on fire? ).  We went in the top and played out our games.  Once you got used to it I quite enjoyed it.  At the end of each exercise one person got a shot at putting out the bonfire.  Now back then you used your ears to gauge heat.  We were told if we couldn't bear the pain from our ears we needed to back off or get out.  The only thing was I had long hair, lots if it, so I was given a fire hood (we were told these were used for fighting ship fires cos the ship was more important than the men on it - ie middle of ocean - well if you wanna live you wanna keep the ship afloat - so they would fight the fire till they dropped - anyway that's what they told us). 

Anyway it came to my turn to put out the fire under the supervision of one of the instructors.  Seeing as they had played no end of tricks on us, well I figured it was my turn to have a little fun.  He told me to hit the base of the fire and when I felt too much heat to knock it off.  So opened the hose right up and kept it right on the base of the fire.  Boy did I feel the heat, Jesus, shit loads of steam blasting back at me, but I didn't shut it off, I kept it going, my ears tucked safely under my flash hood.  Didn't knock it off till the instructor was screaming in a high pitched agonising howl "SHUT THE FUCKING WATER OFF - AAAAAAGH - SHUT IT OFF NOW - FUCKIN NOW - AAAAAAAGH!!!!"

The firemen were all fully confident they could take more heat than us amatuers, but yup, he forgot about my flash hood.

His ears were burning red for days     And don't worry he got a good few more back at me.    I think that fella picked me out for special treatment for the rest of the week    Worth it    Top bloke. 

The other thing I remember was one of the lads had a big mop of curly hair, some of it stuck out from under his hat a bit.  We did the hot hatch exercise.  They let the fire go a bit in the lower section, then open one of the hatches near the fire going from the 1st floor to the ground.  It's so you know what too much heat will feel like.  When the lad with the curly hair went down his brim right round his hat lit up for a couple of seconds, saved him a hair cut I think.

I tell you, if you think firemen are overpaid you wanna try a fire fighting course.  They deserve every penny they get.

[Doddsie]

.

[slimwilly]

But my question is a "looking forward one"   , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?




Is there a country you could propose as a role model?

[lew600fazer]

Perhaps Sweden, Norway might come closest for giving the under priviledged a helping hand. But to be honest I for one would not be prepared to see 60% of my earnings going in taxes.
The fact that we have lost a lot of our manufactuering base over the years is a disgrace. Okay we are clawing some back as in Car plants etc!but terms and conditions in these industries are basically very much dictated by the employer. They have the working man by the balls, as in if you do not like it we will just put the plant in a country were they will work for that money.
Now I will say this though that the British car industry work force did not do itself any favours, industrial relations were a joke. They made shite cars and went on strike at the drop of a hat. The UK used to be viewed as the sick man of europe as far as industrial relations, quality control etc!
Thankfully we seemed to have turned that around.
We will always have people on welfare but personally I do not believe it should given freely to able bodied in our society. Look at the mess of the cities crap all over the place brown field sites etc! We have trouble with kids running wild (not all) one of the reasons is bordom. Can those on welfare not assist in the construction/maintainence of play grounds / sports fields / BMX type cycle parks. Bascically help improve some of the infrastructure within their communities.
Please do not bang on about slave labour, maybe just some folk may gain a bit of satisfaction and self respect if they were given opprtunities like that.
Concerning the over crowding in prisons and cons being banged up for 23 hours aday in some cases, those who are in for non vilolent crimes get them out on the streets , always plenty of litter to be picked up, for every day they do that they get a wee bit of their sentence.
I am sure many will not agree with me but welfare is a life line not a life style.

It will make no difference which political party runs the country we are being led by fools.
Personally I would abolish parliment in its present form , the house of lords whats that all about?

Me I would hand the running of the country over to the CBI & The Unions at least both those parties would have vested interest in who they represent. Also people within those organised groups would have had hands on life & work expeirences unlike our so called professional politicians.

While the EU maintains an open border policy those on the lower end of the wage scale will stay poorly paid. I am a firm believer in the EU but as regards this the freedom of movement between countries this should only allowed on the basis of if there is work available and a local national cannot be found to fill that position.
This business of an EU citizen turning up at the DHSS or job centre saying I am looking for work should be taken into custody and then sent back to were they came from, same thing if they had a job and lose it , sent back.
NO FOREIGN NATIONAL should be allowed to become an economic immigrant. Countries like Italy, Spain and France should be given more assistance in patrolling and preventing the Hordes crossing the Medi from North Africa, I am not talking money but resources as in Naval patrols, sorry but if they come across boats loaded with people they should taken in tow and returned to were they came from.
Just my thoughts I am sure some will view it as complete rubbish but!!!!!!!!!!!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

But my question is a "looking forward one"   , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?

Well I voted YES in the referendum.   Sadly that didn't happen, but we will keep going and will try to get another referendum as soon as is possible, either that or if we can declare Scotland independent by mandate.

The UK is no longer the sick man of Europe, it's Europe's joke.  They laugh at us, we pay our taxes for their companies, many of them state owned to come in and provide our utilities, infrastructure and social services.  'We' in the United Kingdom are playing suicide economics.

And this Scotland and the UK, once the engineering, technological and medical leaders of the whole world.

We will always have people on welfare but personally I do not believe it should given freely to able bodied in our society.

Lew millions of able bodied persons are claiming benefits , they have to to survive, it is as you say a life line.  But you know what these people do?  They work for the big filthy rich foreign state and privately owned companies providing all that I outlined above.

Do you know who the real benefits cheats are, the real spongers, where the money is really going.  These are not social benefits, this is corporate welfare, socialism for the rich.

It will make no difference which political party runs the country we are being led by fools.

Because 'you' vote for fools, and 'you' swallow the lies the fools peddle.  They are 'your' fools.  As I say people get the government they deserve.

I'm not some stupid rose tinted kilt wearing Scotland is better than the rest of the UK kind of nationalist.  I've thirsted for an independent Scotland for last 15 years or so because the Tories then New Labour have put the UK on the road to hell.  Nobody in Scotland wants the Tories, people are waking up and now the Labour party is in freefall like the Tories were 20 years ago.  Another we push and we are out, bye UK.  It's time to say no more, why should we be dragged down by an England determined turn the clock back to Victorian times.

[Doddsie]

But my question is a "looking forward one"   , who does one think,Mr VNA ,would help your heroes out of the hole they find thereselves in?

Well I voted YES in the referendum.   Sadly that didn't happen, but we will keep going and will try to get another referendum as soon as is possible, either that or if we can declare Scotland independent by mandate.

I thought Scotland had a referendum and the majority of people voted NO. Are you saying you just want to keep having referendums until they get the YES vote and then stop having them? Surely if the majority dont want Scotland to be independant then thats an end to it?????

[VNA - BMW Wank]

I thought Scotland had a referendum and the majority of people voted NO. Are you saying you just want to keep having referendums until they get the YES vote and then stop having them? Surely if the majority dont want Scotland to be independant then thats an end to it?????

Well firstly, it is entirely up to the people of Scotland.

Secondly when you hold a referendum you expect people to stick to the rules.  The NO campaign broke The Edinburgh Agreement in the closing stages of the campaign with the introduction of 'The Vow'. 

So many of those who voted in the postal ballot voted in a different referendum to those who voted on the day at the polling station (The Vow being introduced after the postal ballot)

And finally, 'The Vow' that was introduced against the rules (please note that the NO rejected a third option on the ballot paper) turned out not to be worth the paper that it was not written on in any case.

Now in that referendum, despite the full might of the Scottish and British media (only one small paper The Sunday Herald supported independence), the full might of the establishment, all the Westminster Parties and The Westminster Elite - despite all that - 45% of people in Scotland did not buy it and they didn't do as they were told.  That's remarkable.

What have we in Scotland got to vote for come the General Election?  The Good old Tories, The New Tory Party, The Third Rate Tory Party or Nigel's Ultra Fascist Tory Party.

With Jim Murphy (A Tory) about to be elected leader of The Labour Party in Scotland (a man with no seat in our parliament), I can't help thinking it's wipe out time for Labour at the general election.  Scots vote one way in a general election, then vote the opposite way in a Scottish Election.  I don't think that will happen this time.

The way things are playing out politically at the moment, YES! I think the people will demand another referendum. 

[lew600fazer]

VNA on your own admission you have said you are on an above average salary and have a final salary pension scheme, so no doubt you will be financial secure no matter what way the dice falls.
Concerning another referendum, you cannot just say we are going to have another referendum. The country voted no, the issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for at least 25 years.

Can you also explain how you would actually run the country either the UK or Scotland, we all know Comunism does not work.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

VNA on your own admission you have said you are on an above average salary and have a final salary pension scheme, so no doubt you will be financial secure no matter what way the dice falls.

And your point is caller?

Concerning another referendum, you cannot just say we are going to have another referendum. The country voted no, the issue should not be allowed to raise it's head again for at least 25 years.

Yes we can!  And yes we will!  See my answer above - post no. 65 - I've already answered that question.

Can you also explain how you would actually run the country either the UK or Scotland, we all know Comunism does not work.

If think if you look at the way Scotland is being run within it's limited powers, well it's being much better run than the rest of the UK.  However we don't have control of our economy - so we effectively run on a fixed budget.

Lew the things I've already pointed out that are wrong are the things I'd most like to fix.  What is it that you don't get?  It's time to stop corporate welfare, it's time to put a stop to socialism for the rich, it's time to stop robbing the poor to pay the rich.

Communism?  I don't think any country has ever tried it.  Or those that have, and those that might be minded to, will/would be destroyed.

What we do know for sure Lew is that Neo Liberal Capitalism does not work.  And we also know is that it is also destroying our environment.

[lew600fazer]

VNA, If you stop corparate welfare as you call it, all you will acheive is create mass unemployment as a lot of companies will just up sticks and move abroad.
Capitalism is not the answer and neither is socailism. I don't pretend to know the answer. I do know this though what I have earned and saved over the years belongs to me and not the state. I took Norman Tebbits advice and got on my bike.
I am fortunate enough to be comfortabley off. What I have I worked for, no last final salary though and no economy or employer can afford that.
Concerning your , we want independance for Scotland, you have had your vote and it was a resounding NO so live with it.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

VNA, If you stop corparate welfare as you call it, all you will acheive is create mass unemployment as a lot of companies will just up sticks and move abroad.

How do you figure that?  Lets take an example of a prime tax dodger, and incidentally a company that pays large numbers of it's staff at or around the minimum wage;

Starbucks;

So we make Starbucks pay the corporation tax that's it's been dodging, on top of that we make em pay a living wage so that tax payers don't have to top up the pay of their staff.

What is wrong with that Lew?  You know if Joe Blogs with his one wee coffee shop down the high street has to pay all his taxes, why should the massively profitable Starbucks not have to, and indeed be given a unfair competitive advantage?

And if Starbucks doesn't like having to play fair?  Well yeah sure, they can foc off and move out - who gives a foc.  Cos you know what will happen.  Where there is a demand, there is a business and money to be made.  Well I doubt for one minute that Starbucks would move out, but it's no loss if they do.

And please explain to me Lew why you think we should subsidise the massive Starbucks and their super rich shareholders?  Why should little people like us give them money, money for nothing, when we haven't even as much as bought a foccing coffee off them?

Concerning your , we want independance for Scotland, you have had your vote and it was a resounding NO so live with it.

Lew making the same dodgy statement repeatedly will not make it any more relevant than the first time you stated it.

And I answered it comprehensively in post 65. 

In short YES WE CAN!  YES WE WILL!

[BIG MAC]

Gawd..VNA is making sense in places...feck how this place has changed. Here's the maths...The UK is up to it's axles in debt and the present Govt have done feck all to improve the situation..what they have done is stem the tide of 'lack of confidence' which would have sunk us..
Forgetting philanthropy for a moment an Independent Scotland would have put Cameron and co on their arses back behind square one...they have probably done what was right for the UK.
Being harsh however - Scotland has assets far in excess of it's own costs and has been propping up Middle Englanders for years the 55% were enough to kick off round two of what ios being called 'The neverendum' and the tax powers granted by the Tories are simply a device to start chipping away at the block grant and forcing a socialist Scotland to tax it's wealthy ...The Tories don't actually give a shit about Scottish Tories as there aren't enough of them to make much of a difference. Divide and conquer is order of the day and only when UKIP and SNP sit down in Westminster will many see the monster created by Dizzy Dave and co.

[lew600fazer]

Now why did it not surprise me that Starbucks would be the one that came up. All they are doing is using the rules as they are written. But at least this government has obviously had a word.

 Starbucks expects to pay corporation tax on profits in the UK after electing to move its European headquarters from the Netherlands to London.   The coffee chain, which has been at the centre of a blazing row over tax avoidance by multinational corporations, has announced plans to move senior management to its UK offices, as well as making Britain the base of its intellectual property rights.   This means that the sizeable royalty payments Starbucks currently siphons to its Dutch base from the company’s divisions across Europe, including the UK, will instead by transferred to Britain. It therefore expects to declare a profit in the UK in the coming years, in contrast to the consecutive losses the unit has posted in the last decade.

I agree it is not right that bean counters can manipulate how and when they decide they make a profit or loss. All companies do that.
I do not understand accounting, but lets say BP expect to make £1 billion profit for 2014 but they actually only make £750 million, so really as far as they are concerned they have a short fall of £250 million. I am sure some bean counter will turn that around so they can say they actually made a loss of £250 million.
On the subject of keeping pushing for another scottish vote. if in the next UK parliment there is a vote in the house that Scotland will not be allowed to hold another vote for 25 years. Are the nationalists in Scotland prepared to go down the road that Nationalists did in N Ireland ?I really fear for the innocents of that land if they are led into a conflict like we had to suffer for and still do in N Ireland. Be very very careful that stupidity does not ignite the blue touch paper because once that fuse is lite you will not be able to extingiush it. Do not be in a rush to go down that road. Please do not be foolish enough to think that Scotland could not have internal strife and border on civil war like we have for the last 45/50 years. I am nearly 66 now and that lot over there kicked off good time in 1967.
When the result was announced in the recent vote, there where scenes between the yes/no crowds nearly becoming violent. It could only take one such incident to kick it off.
In N Ireland we had a a certain so called man of God gathered a crowd of so called loyalists and marched them up the lower Falls road and removed a Republican Flag from offices of a political party. That was all that was required to start the bomb ticking.
The result of that and a lack of discipline in controlling troops on the streets of Londonderry in 1972 lead to over 3500 deaths. The % of the population killed or injured equates to 2%.
Be under no illusion the same thing could happen in Scotland , just remember it will not be like an OLD FIRM game that everyone will go home after 90 minutes.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Divide and conquer is order of the day and only when UKIP and SNP sit down in Westminster will many see the monster created by Dizzy Dave and co.

How about the SNP sweep to power at Westminster with over 40 seats.  Labour is slain in Scotland - dead in the water.
It's a hung parliament again, so Labour do a deal with the SNP to prevent the nightmare scenario of a Tory UKIP coalition.

So an SNP Labour coalition, dippy Ed Miliband as PM with Alex Salmond as Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

It therefore expects to declare a profit in the UK in the coming years, in contrast to the consecutive losses the unit has posted in the last decade.

 

On the subject of keeping pushing for another scottish vote, if in the next UK parliment there is a vote in the house that Scotland will not be allowed to hold another vote for 25 years

We were not allowed to hold a referendum in any case.  They can make whatever law they want, we don't care, we can do what we would have done had Westminster not granted us permission under The Edinburgh Agreement (you know that document that they then themselves ignored) and that is hold a consultative referendum. 

I mean bring it on.  Can you imagine the reaction to such a vote in Scotland?

And if it could be outlawed..........  Then having a majority at Westminster and then securing an impossible majority for the second time in a row at Holyrood we could declare Scotland Independent by Mandate - no referendum required thank you very much!

are the nationalists in Scotland prepared to go down the road that Nationalists did in N Ireland.I really fear for the innocents of that land if they are led into a conflict like we had to suffer for and still do in N Ireland. Be very very careful that stupidity does not ignite the blue touch paper because once that fuse is lite you will not be able to put it out. Do not be in a rush to go down that road, Please do not be foolish enough to think that Scotland could not have internal strife and border on civil war like we did for the last 45/50 years. I am nearly 66 now and that lot over there kicked of good time in 1967.

No I really can't see it.  There is absolutely nothing to suggest that that could happen.  And you actually have it the wrong way round.  When the trouble came during the referendum it came from the loyalists.

[lew600fazer]

Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??