Great British Roads that are focced up.are sports compound tyres now applicable?

[noggythenog]

Ok this is a tyre thread......... with a minor twist i suppose......noggys sure are inquisitive.


But I'm just throwing it out there as a discussion thread if anyone fancies it. (It is winter season after all)


Last night at work i was reading MCN campaign about pot hole UK and i agree that it is fair to agree that our roads are well and truly FUBAR. I at least get the joys of some decent Welsh roads which are far better than the average English roads but that's not totally true as most of the minor roads are still trashed.


Sometimes when I'm in my car car i even think to myself that should i just buy an old 4x4 with big ass suspension as the average journey these days is a pretty rough ride, but i much prefer a sporty ride on the corners and a car is still best at the moment.


The same applies on the bike as i do like a decent corner and the FZ1 is a pretty precise weapon on a fast and open sweeper......but there are less and less fast sweepers available that aren't pot holed, patched or cracked to bits and if you hit the wrong shit mid bend it could be end of.


So what's the only thing holding you to that shit house of defective tarmac.......the tyres right.....


So i can see how slicks are good on a nice dry and smooth track....& actually my thoughts are currently excluding wet weather as i "try" to only ride dry roads.....and so the road sports tyres that are pretty much the slicks of road riding are supposed to be the bees knees......but are they really all that applicable any more?


I know lots of guys go for sports touring tyres but that mainly seems to be because they want longevity which i'm not all that interested in either as I'm talking about 1 full summer season of good performance and then change them.


What i'm getting at is this......what's really the best performing tyre for 2014/2015 roads in dry conditions, for 1 summer season only?


If you said to someone........excellent and smooth well surfaced and warm tarmac.....dry....then they'd say  a sports road tyre so diablo 3 or whatever.....soft, sticky, hardly any tread......but when a soft sticky tyre hits a rough patch then how does it behave?, perhaps it is still the best tyre i really don't have a clue thats why I'm asking.


If you said to that same person......off road then they'd no doubt say a knobbly but why are knobblys knobbly lol.....to say "because you get more grip" i think simplifies it all a bit too much.....is it to give more grip? or is it really to stop the wheel sinking into mud? or is it to get rid of the water which I'm saying isn't applicable in my ideal tyre anyway? (any crossers on here?, MX, not cross dressers !)....but riding a knobbly over dry rocky stuff i imagine the knobbles also absorb some of the pressure or impact of the ruts and stones.....or perhaps they distribute the
Pressure over a wider area as the rubber knobbles squish over them so what does that mean in terms of a rough road exactly?


Dont ask why I've drawn the comparison between road and off road.....i just have.....i am only a noggy  i suppose they are the extremes but perhaps it isn't a good comparison.....like helicopters and jets.....both in the sky...do different things....its just a thought provoking idea thats all.......thinking outside the box n all that.


Is there such a thing as a modern day road knobbly.....a mix between the 2......big tread and handles on a turn yet when it hits a rut or a dodgy patch it also absorbs some of the energy whilst maintaining the same level of grip?......or would yous argue that this is the nature of a sports tourer tyre.....if so then which one and give examples of when a tyre has saved your bacon


Mmmmmmmmmmm........Bacon!!!!!!

[stevierst]

Is there such a thing as a modern day road knobbly.....a mix between the 2......

Erm, no :P

[alan sherman]

You want the tyre to be able to grip better on uneven surfaces, not loose surfaces.  So the important things are contact patch and ability (speed) to cope with the change is surface height. 

To me this means fatter tyres, tread to remove water but no knobs, lower pressures and 'softer' suspension.  The trade off will be a more squirmy ride.

In the world of road bicycling people are coming to the same conclusion.  Roads are shit, so run wider tyres at lower pressures and bikes with more comfortable geometry and contact points.  The racy feeling may not be as 'exciting', but the ride is more comfortable and enjoyable - it is a just a 'different' ride.

The reason the original Fazer was so popular was because it had good power, but was a real road bike so was also comfortable (and cheap).  The question is what it the Fazer of the tyre world?  I like pirelli diablos, but it woudl be interesting to see if there are any noticable differences in tyres ability to deform to variable road surfaces (compared at a constant pressure across brands)

[noggythenog]

Is there such a thing as a modern day road knobbly.....a mix between the 2......

Erm, no :P

 


Sorry i forgot the clause...........that of course regardless of temp, pressure or environment..........Maxxis diamonds are obviously the best...........the reason that comet probe is failing right now is that it doesnt have any Maxxis Diamonds eh stevie

[noggythenog]

You want the tyre to be able to grip better on uneven surfaces, not loose surfaces.  So the important things are contact patch and ability (speed) to cope with the change is surface height. 

To me this means fatter tyres, tread to remove water but no knobs, lower pressures and 'softer' suspension.  The trade off will be a more squirmy ride.

In the world of road bicycling people are coming to the same conclusion.  Roads are shit, so run wider tyres at lower pressures and bikes with more comfortable geometry and contact points.  The racy feeling may not be as 'exciting', but the ride is more comfortable and enjoyable - it is a just a 'different' ride.

The reason the original Fazer was so popular was because it had good power, but was a real road bike so was also comfortable (and cheap).  The question is what it the Fazer of the tyre world?  I like pirelli diablos, but it woudl be interesting to see if there are any noticable differences in tyres ability to deform to variable road surfaces (compared at a constant pressure across brands)

Somehow i think youve sussed my thinking here even though my methods are a bit obscure perhaps.........it matters not as ive already promised stevie that ill give the Maxxis Diamonds a fair shot but the questions remain.




You've hit on something important here.....the ability of a tyre to "adapt" quickly.......it's the response that is important......so whether that means that the compound reacts......or like you say that the tyre is for example infinetly wider so that when a part of it hits a dodgy patch then there's still enough of it left on the good patch of surface...........but i still dont quite understand the whole science behind it.......i thought that regardless of how wide a tyre was that the contact point on the road pretty much was the same.....but no......the more i think about it then the more  i suppose if the same fat rider (me) is on the bike then the wider tyre will have a bit more of a squishy bit on the road.....with the same pressure......is that correct or false?


So wide tyre.....lower pressure.......less responsive......but more forgiving on the crap bits..........is that the crack?

[Exupnut]

Gotta agree with Me Sherman Re Pirelli Diablo's. Brilliant tyre and sticky as hell. Had a set on this year and felt fantastic tryin to chase Lord Kosmic of the Manor down. (Couldn't quite catch the bastard but he was always in my sights). Work have just stuck some BT023's on the cb500 and today I was in the rain, torrential, on country lanes, dry, wet, slippery, leaves,gravel, u name it i fekkin road it and they were brilliant. Tried em all apart from pilot 4's and this was the safest I felt so far.

Maybe u shud get one of these Ferengi



That shud at least half your problem (after you've riden the babe)

[stevierst]

..Maxxis diamonds are obviously the best...........the reason that comet probe is failing right now is that it doesnt have any Maxxis Diamonds eh stevie

He'll yeah, this simple oversight led the highly qualified scientists and engineers to fit inferior mainstream rubber to the probe has led to its ultimate failure!
A set of diamonds would have supplied superior traction and stopped it falling down the chasm!

Or you can simply fit these bad boys Noggy :P

[stevierst]

Damn piccy won't upload (

[Doddsie]

There are a hell of a lot of people out there that seem to think they are tyre experts. ( I mean out there in general, not on here). How many times have you heard people sit bragging to their mates over a fry up that they dont like Dunlops cos they dont handle corners well, or the latest BT 30684s are crap in the rain etc. Then the next bloke is raving about how good Dunlops are or Bridgestones are excellent all weather tyres. The tyre companies spend millions researching and testing tyres but it always makes me laugh when Fred down the pub starts slagging them off cos there not up to his standard.99% of people wouldnt have a clue what tyres were on a bike if they couldnt read the wall, and a very high percentage of those probably couldnt tell any difference in any of them.
   Michael Dunlop and Valentino Rossi etc who are pushing their tyres to the limit will know whats what but average Joe on his daily commute or Sunday afternoon blatt around Matlock couldnt tell the difference in a Dunlop and a doughnut.
  Before everyone starts having a go,  Im not saying that nobody can tell the difference, obviously some people can, but how many of these biking gods have had a brown trouser moment in a corner and instantly blame it on the new tyres when actually it was down to their riding being not quite as good as they think it is?  Just asking!

[stevierst]

Here, here doddsie!

[Yamazer-92]

There are tyres that are designed for the road but can be used on very minor off road as I've seen quite a few supermotos with them, an example is Avon Distanza. A lot of supermoto riders seem to just put sport touring or semi / full on-slicks on though so I would suggest what we have on is best for a sport tourer riding on tarmac. Not quite sure what you're actually asking though, that was a lot to take in and there are a few different actual questions haha. If you're on about solely dry riding in summer for pleasure and maximum cornering grip then yes a sportier tyre like a metzeler M5 sportec etc will be a better choice of course.


I think if you are mid bend and see a pothole / debris the tyres will not really make much of a difference as long as they're good quality it will more likely be the suspension that will save you and your riding ability to not tense up if you do hit it and try to look past it to avoid it. If you're talking about riding the roads now which I don't think you are because you asked about summer, I would say now isn't really the time to be going balls to the wind anyway because I know where I live the roads are dreadful and wet leaves, wet manholes and potholes are all over the place not to mention the distracted drivers commuting home.


On another note, this could be a bit of a risqué comment and not my place but it's meant in good faith. You sound as though you enjoy cornering the most but to me regarding a lot of your posts I don't think you're enjoying your FZ1 as much as you expected and are trying to justify to yourself the performance it should have by trying to go faster and faster and faster. Thing is, I can only see it ending badly which nobody would want to happen. You often spoke well of your Fazer 600 and loved how it handled. I think if you actually timed yourself doing your favourite roads on both bikes, you are actually smashing your old pace to pieces on the FZ1 but because it is such a beast, you are feeling pressured to as if you MUST beat the old FZS and this is my point. You aren't riding just for the fun of it perhaps and its now becoming more about riding well with good pace which sometimes the road conditions wont allow. In my opinion, smaller less powerful and lighter bikes are more involving as the actual perception of speed, fun and pace in the bends is greater. This is off on a tangent to your OP I know, but just my opinion. I think if you got an MT-07 or something smaller that can handle and feels like you are actually more involved in riding it to its potential without going stupidly fast and making greater chance of serious accident you wouldn't be thinking about stuff like this quite as much perhaps. There is an interesting article in Bike magazine 500th anniversary edition I just bought regarding this.

[witchfinder]

There are a hell of a lot of people out there that seem to think they are tyre experts. ( I mean out there in general, not on here). How many times have you heard people sit bragging to their mates over a fry up that they dont like Dunlops cos they dont handle corners well, or the latest BT 30684s are crap in the rain etc. Then the next bloke is raving about how good Dunlops are or Bridgestones are excellent all weather tyres. The tyre companies spend millions researching and testing tyres but it always makes me laugh when Fred down the pub starts slagging them off cos there not up to his standard.99% of people wouldnt have a clue what tyres were on a bike if they couldnt read the wall, and a very high percentage of those probably couldnt tell any difference in any of them.
   Michael Dunlop and Valentino Rossi etc who are pushing their tyres to the limit will know whats what but average Joe on his daily commute or Sunday afternoon blatt around Matlock couldnt tell the difference in a Dunlop and a doughnut.
  Before everyone starts having a go,  Im not saying that nobody can tell the difference, obviously some people can, but how many of these biking gods have had a brown trouser moment in a corner and instantly blame it on the new tyres when actually it was down to their riding being not quite as good as they think it is?  Just asking!

Couldn't have put it better myself

[stevierst]

Gotta be honest, I've been on rideouts on my R1, fz1, and my Thundercat with my bro-in-law on his Tuono, and he said I'm just as quick, if not more focussed and slick on the 600!!

You'd be suprised that on the road there's not much difference unless your an absolute lunatic! The 600's just have to be worked a bit more, meaning more fun:P

[Exupnut]

There's one guy who could tell us a lot about tyre compounds but he's brown bread ... RIP   SIMONCELLI

[noggythenog]

Oooooooo started this fred anyway & whooo's got the answers.


Some top competitors so far actually


I finks things are going the right way ie FZ1 is superior to the gen 1 & plus all the 600 's are infertile


Also some good analysis of me which to be fair is actually pretty acurate & im in shock.......i can hardly type........but ill struggle on.


Sure to be sure & i can analyze


Chicken chow mein

[Exupnut]

Noggy...... Try makin your own mind up once in a while... U really will be the better for it

[noggythenog]

Gotta be honest, I've been on rideouts on my R1, fz1, and my Thundercat with my bro-in-law on his Tuono, and he said I'm just as quick, if not more focussed and slick on the 600!!

You'd be suprised that on the road there's not much difference unless your an absolute lunatic! The 600's just have to be worked a bit more, meaning more fun:P

Zactly stevie.


On my tiny 600 i was pretty confident and up in scotland against my my old man on his FZ6 was even commenting on the fact that i was turning in quicker ........i remember him with his excuses about the different capabilities of each bike bla bla.




Hmmmmmmmmm




Fastforward a year and im on my thou.........struggling to match him on the twisties.......foccin old funT.


But hey eeeeeenuf bout me........what about tyres...........i mean ive got no real issues with the trends.....i tow the line........i jus did over 100 miles on a shaven haven rear tyre in the pissing rain without any brown moments.....i know my flaws.


But where is the science?

[Hedgetrimmer]

Noggy, did it ever occur to you that perhaps you over-analyse things a little? Maybe just a teensie, tiny bit? No?

[stevierst]

I tend to go for sports touring tyres rather than pure sports, modern ones are just as grippy for us 'normal riders'.

Had a few full on sports tyres, and they seem to take forever to warm up, wear out twice as quick, and are a bit rubbish in the wet.
I don't think you really need an intermediate on/off road tyre, even for our bombed out roads. If you hit a pothole, even an off road tyre ain't going to save you. I'd go for the superior grip and hard wearing nature of a road tyre........... Like maxxis diamonds :P

[noggythenog]

Noggy, did it ever occur to you that perhaps you over-analyse things a little? Maybe just a teensie, tiny bit? No?

Guilty Nick




I dont when im riding though.




But i do like to challenge the status quo a little bit when im not....its nowt about my riding or whatever....merely a technical question about the rubber coz ive noticed that everyone seems to just go with whatever everyone else is going with.....a little bit of the emperors new clothes syndrome.


I still stand by those michellin maccadam tyres i had orifinally on my 600........my experience is small......but they were a good tyre im sure of it.......better than the diablo 2's i had afterwards......better than the pilot 3's i have now.


Bloody shame they dont seem to do them any more.

[noggythenog]

Yes General

[Hedgetrimmer]

I don't go with PR2s cos it's what everyone else goes for. I have used Metzelers, Contis and Bridgestones too. And that's just on the Fazers I've had. I keep replacing the Michelins with the same because I have genuinely found them to be an excellent tyre. Wet weather grip is hardly less than dry, and dry is superb. I find them predictable, they don't give me any scary "moments" and they wear reasonably well. With all the tyre discussions there have been on this and other forums, I have not changed due to someone else's recommendation. If I find a tyre that I like, I'll stay with it until I can't get them anymore.

[bigralphie]

I had Avon Distanzia on my CCM R30 awesome tyre but the supermoto sizes are a much softer compound than the ones for big trailies
I tend to go by BHP output
Sport touring on bikes over 100 ish
Sticky stuff on lower 

[slappy]

I have contimotions on my FZ1 at moment because thats what were on when I bought it and they had just been fitted. I cannot tell any difference between them and the Bridgestones that usually put on any bike I have owned in the last 15 years.
For me any sports touring tyre should do the job for normal road riding, if its black, round, with a decent amount of tread!

[darrsi]

Gotta agree with Me Sherman Re Pirelli Diablo's. Brilliant tyre and sticky as hell. Had a set on this year and felt fantastic tryin to chase Lord Kosmic of the Manor down. (Couldn't quite catch the bastard but he was always in my sights). Work have just stuck some BT023's on the cb500 and today I was in the rain, torrential, on country lanes, dry, wet, slippery, leaves,gravel, u name it i fekkin road it and they were brilliant. Tried em all apart from pilot 4's and this was the safest I felt so far.

Maybe u shud get one of these Ferengi



That shud at least half your problem (after you've riden the babe)

Recently had a front BT023 fitted and i'm extremely pleased with it.
First thing i noticed was the deeper tread than normal, more than i've ever seen on any tyre before, which would explain why some people on here have got obscene mileage out of them. Even a client at work who obviously knew about bikes pointed it out to me.
The other thing that grabs my attention, every day, is that when i leave work i get this horrible clattering sound when i pull away, and it's from small stones that have stuck to the tyre that get rattled free by my front extender, suggesting a softer, grippier compound.
As you say yourself, with some of the extreme torrential downpours we've had recently i've felt that the tyre still stuck like glue to the road at all times which is what it's all about in my opinion. It does give you masses of confidence and you tend to relax a little bit more in shittier weather which is always a bonus.
I have a T30 on the rear which is also faultless, albeit a bit on the expensive side, but i can probably see myself swayed towards a BT023 rear in the future.
Obviously on dry roads they are both the mutts nuts.