spark plugs

[markd]

Hi Guys looking  for  some advice. recentlty bought fzs600 just  had  it  services to  find  out  it  had been  serviced correctly for long long time  and   now i am  stuck  with 2 siezed spark pluds on the  left h side. any ideas  how  i can   remove   with out breaking   them  in there,  and  then  needing  to  get  helicoil  done.

many thanks

mark

[Captain Haddock]

A good soak with wd40 around them and get the engine realy hot before trying to shift them, don't try it with the engine cold, the expansion of the aluminium will make them slightly looser and help the wd40 get in.

[solorider]

i would not use wd40,you want some penitrating oil,like plusgas.as Captain Haddock said get the engine hot

[Gnasher]

 
 
  Dont try and remove them when they are hot you will increase the risk of stripping the threads, only when stone cold  .  Undo them VERY slowly and apply more pen oil as they undo DONT just undo them either after a turn do them up quarter of a turn and keep doing this until they either undo or become free.
 
Take great care or you will strip the threads in the head and then it not only gets very expensive you may well have to remove the head!!!         

[Lumpy]

Well to be honest, penetrating fluid will do fuck all as there is a gas tight seal there unless they are slightly loost.
 
Undoing them won't strip the threads in the head unless they were damaged putting them in. It's the torque on the sealing washer that's holding them.
 
Do it hot as the head will expand a little.
 
Try doing it up a very small amount and then undoing although this should not striclty be necessary.It looks as if a monkey put them in. Only usual way of stripping head threads is by over tightening.
 
Get a good fitting socket on them though to prevent slippage. Use a bit more force, you'll be fine.

[Lumpy]

 
  Dont try and remove them when they are hot you will increase the risk of stripping the threads,     

pray tell why? The ally isn't softer at 160 degress C than it is at 0 degrees C and technically the more brittle the metal, that is colder, the more chance of a fracture. Don't mind me I'm just an engineer and an old one at that 
 
What heating the engine will do is very slightly make the thread larger diameter compared to the steel plug thread which expands at a lower CTE.
 
Just wondered like.

[Gnasher]

 
  Dont try and remove them when they are hot you will increase the risk of stripping the threads,     

pray tell why? The ally isn't softer at 160 degress C than it is at 0 degrees C and technically the more brittle the metal, that is colder, the more chance of a fracture. Don't mind me I'm just an engineer and an old one at that 
 
What heating the engine will do is very slightly make the thread larger diameter compared to the steel plug thread which expands at a lower CTE.
 
Just wondered like.

Because when heated as you say it goes soft and grips the plug threads which makes removal harder and can and does strip threads, plugs should never be removed when an engine is hot.  You being an engineer will know steal and aluminium do strange things when put together one being they tend to seize if the isn't something between them e.g. plug threads have a lacquer on them for that very reason. They also have very different tensile, sheer, wear and surface finish properties as mentioned above plugs mostly seize due to being over tightened i.e. stretched threads, fitting them with crap on the threads (very common on Fazers due to owner/stealers not cleaning the plug wells before/after removing the plugs and fitting a new ones), wet or the lacquer has worn off.
 
The torque between the collapsible washer isn't what is holding the plugs in it's the the threads in the head gripping the plug threads due to any one or all of the above mentioned.  I've had bike in that the plugs had been done up so tight the washer had been crushed that much so as to be deformed up the sides of the plug body and could be pulled out leaving a gap

I always put a little copper slip on the plug threads always make sure the plugs fully seat BEFORE torgueing, never had one seize yet 
 
The threads are NOT gas tight the collapsible washer provides the seal once seated against the head and tightened to the correct torque.  Once the seal is broken (undone slightly) the pen oil will do what it's designed to do and penetrate, using the method of undo/do up will further encourage the oil to spread and slowly release the grip of the aluminium.

[Lumpy]

 
  Dont try and remove them when they are hot you will increase the risk of stripping the threads,     

pray tell why? The ally isn't softer at 160 degress C than it is at 0 degrees C and technically the more brittle the metal, that is colder, the more chance of a fracture. Don't mind me I'm just an engineer and an old one at that 
 
What heating the engine will do is very slightly make the thread larger diameter compared to the steel plug thread which expands at a lower CTE.
 
Just wondered like.

Because when heated as you say it goes soft and grips the plug threads which makes removal harder and can and does strip threads, plugs should never be removed when an engine is hot.  You being an engineer will know steal and aluminium do strange things when put together one being they tend to seize if the isn't something between them e.g. plug threads have a lacquer on them for that very reason. They also have very different tensile, sheer, wear and surface finish properties as mentioned above plugs mostly seize due to being over tightened i.e. stretched threads, fitting them with crap on the threads (very common on Fazers due to owner/stealers not cleaning the plug wells before/after removing the plugs and fitting a new ones), wet or the lacquer has worn off.
 
The torque between the collapsible washer isn't what is holding the plugs in it's the the threads in the head gripping the plug threads due to any one or all of the above mentioned.  I've had bike in that the plugs had been done up so tight the washer had been crushed that much so as to be deformed up the sides of the plug body and could be pulled out leaving a gap

I always put a little copper slip on the plug threads always make sure the plugs fully seat BEFORE torgueing, never had one seize yet 
 
The threads are NOT gas tight the collapsible washer provides the seal once seated against the head and tightened to the correct torque.  Once the seal is broken (undone slightly) the pen oil will do what it's designed to do and penetrate, using the method of undo/do up will further encourage the oil to spread and slowly release the grip of the aluminium.

The aluminium does not soften until about 300 degrees more, and NEVER, EVER EVER use copper grease on plug threads, never.


A little knowledge and imagination goes a long way and IF you actually believe the trash you typed we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  ride safe.


I think the fact you torque the plugs properly has more to do with them not seizing. Most people overtighten.


Would agree, to a point, about dirt on the threads though.

[Gnasher]

Boys
 
We've got another one     
 

[glynblue2]

I just love topics like this with never evers in without giving the reason why never evers are there in the first place.....

[glynblue2]

if there werent ONES gnasher how would we know if we have or not have the right ONES 

[Gnasher]

 

[Lumpy]

Boys
 
We've got another one     

Love it. Are you considered the font of all knowledge on this here discussion forum? You are definitely not a KAFA but have some odd ideas without substantiation but I can see there is resistance here 


More than one way to skin a cat I spose. 


I'll retreat a bit and watch...................

[Lumpy]

Boys
 
We've got another one     

I've changed my mind, you are a KAFA. Sorry :-)  I've sought second opinions from people that ACTUALLY know stuff

[Lumpy]

Because when heated as you say it goes soft and grips the plug threads which makes removal harder and can and does strip threads, plugs should never be removed when an engine is hot.  You being an engineer will know steal and aluminium do strange things when put together one being they tend to seize if the isn't something between them e.g. plug threads have a lacquer on them for that very reason. They also have very different tensile, sheer, wear and surface finish properties as mentioned above plugs mostly seize due to being over tightened i.e. stretched threads, fitting them with crap on the threads (very common on Fazers due to owner/stealers not cleaning the plug wells before/after removing the plugs and fitting a new ones), wet or the lacquer has worn off.
 
The torque between the collapsible washer isn't what is holding the plugs in it's the the threads in the head gripping the plug threads due to any one or all of the above mentioned.

what an unmitigated load of bollocks this all is I'm afraid. I wouldn't have you service my lawnmower far less a bike, and my lawn mower is a push one 


Watch out for doing any exhaust nuts up with a hot engine you may round them off as they will be soft due to the hear. A plug must be really soft when the engine is running too and goodness knows how exhaust headers don't just drip off the bike.....................

[Lumpy]

I expect you also change engine oil when cold too to make sure the soft thread in the sump doesn't strip. Fine thread too so your theory must also hold true for that. Gnasher the KAFA    I hope the other guys can see what a load of old tosh you type now. Made my day. Cheers

[glynblue2]

This is very unlike me but here goes,Lumpy everyone has an opinion whether the same or not its thier opinion,calling anyone by the name you have above is not good,attacking anyone for an opinion that differs from your own is not really the way to gain peoples confidence or even add credence to your opinion.
I could go on but i wont as me being polite just winds me up the wrong way, truth be told, but there you go....

[Lumpy]

This is very unlike me but here goes,Lumpy everyone has an opinion whether the same or not its thier opinion,calling anyone by the name you have above is not good,attacking anyone for an opinion that differs from your own is not really the way to gain peoples confidence or even add credence to your opinion.....

A KAFA is NOT a Kafir, so please don't make that simple mistake.


An opinion that is actually wrong in most ways and an ill thought out argument although his conviction is there.


I am trying to educate othrs that may be taken in and actually do what he does on their bikes. Bad advice is worse than no advice. Nothing there meant to offend you and KAFA is definitely not what you think it is, I expect 

[Skippernick]

soooo.... what was this topic about in the first place?
my opinion is that i've not heard about extracting when hot, but then again i've never had the problem so haven't gone looking for an answer. sorry.
good luck though.

[Major Rant]

The ally isn't softer at 160 degress C than it is at 0 degrees C

Its properties certainly can change at 160C. I would say its more likely to fracture but not because its soft, more probably because its become grainy.
Google "preciptation heat treatment".
 
 

[richfzs]

Well, I think this is the first time Gnasher has been accused of giving bad advice, I'd certainly take his over somebody who just turns up and starts calling people names.

So then, Lumpy, what is a KAFA?

[Lumpy]

The ally isn't softer at 160 degress C than it is at 0 degrees C

Its properties certainly can change at 160C. I would say its more likely to fracture but not because its soft, more probably because its become grainy.
Google "preciptation heat treatment".

I would imagine the aluminium alloy is resistant to this precipitation heat treatment to a major degree, not daft these nips. The coefficient of thermal expansion was really the important on here but Mr KAFA seems to think the alloy gets soft at operating temperatures. If he also knew about copper grease he would know, although thermally resistant to a point, it is a major no no once the evaporables evaporate and it becomes a congealed mass. You can look that up on the internet too.


All you need to do to look clever is pretend to know more than the masses and in this case it appears to have worked.


I'm newbieish on here but well known in other places, some say regrettably, and one of my saying has, for years, been bad advice is worse than no advice. Poor old gnashipoos cannot have any substatiation to a lot of his arguments as there is nothing to substantiate them as they are wrong, some of them anyways, some have a modicum of actual information and truth though.

[Fazerider]

Well, I think this is the first time Gnasher has been accused of giving bad advice, I'd certainly take his over somebody who just turns up and starts calling people names.

Well, in this case he certainly did. Utilising the difference in coefficient of thermal expansion of dissimilar metals is a long established method for shifting stubborn steel screws out of alloy... made use of it myself only a month or so back to get the old brake discs off.

[Bracechenko]

Lumpy - Right or wrong, you're a dick 

[markd]

hi guys update on spark plugs one out and 1 snapped in half. so of to garage