Scottish independence

[fazersharp]

Ah---------- yes the west lothian question

But will we still keep the blue bit in the flag

[slimwilly]

Me and my wife got married in Gretna green ( i am a lesbo(new wench from last night) lover)


We have a tin of Tartan shortbread at Christmas.


And i saw Andy Murray on the telly playing tennis.


Does this mean i am Scottish ?

[Hedgetrimmer]

VNA, you ARE Alex Salmond, and I claim my £5! 
 
You seem to know more about what will happen than anyone else. Which is kind of par for the course, as the only ones who are certain they are right are the independance lobby. Oh, wait a minute, they include all the brightest economists and politicians in the world, right? I would suggest that no one really knows what the outcome of Scottish independance would be - what, for instance, will be the debt situation for Scotland after? For as many of one opinion on any aspect you can find, you will find as many opposite/contrary opinions. Why should anyone trust what YOU say on the subject? Are you not doing exactly the same as Salmond, just brow beating everyone into your way of thinking? You are exactly the kind of person who clouds the debate with rhetoric.
 
I don't claim to know an awful lot about the outcomes. But this is because we don't get informed by reasoned debate from qualified people. That's what this issue really needs before a single vote is taken in a referendum - or do you look down your nose on all those who aren't well informed (i.e. the majority) and say well, let me decide for you cos I know it all?

[mtread]

I was wondering how long it would take to bring up the West Lothian question!

The blue bit is for chelsea.

I was wondering how long it would take to bring up the West London question!

[midden]

Mickvp,

What you will get is the chance to vote for a government, elected in Scotland, by the Scottish people, to take the decisions in Scotland that effect us here in Scotland.


It's almost worth the split just to see how much a government elected in Scotland by the Scottish for the Scottish would actually follows the wishes of the Scottish commoner once elected in

It does not current matter one jot what we vote up here in Scotland, England elects the government - period.  What's the point?

Much of what you are refering  to will be negotiated over or will be decided upon by the first Scottish government.  Remember that will be a government that we will have elected,


'Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted' springs to mind
 
and that will be answerable to us.


 not the large Corporates supportng the economy then


 

Scotland has one of the strongest economies on the world, not a lot will change.   


could be damaged if the service sector decides to move out


My money is on a currency union, it's the most likely outcome, but you know what, who cares, we can use the pound without a currency union or adopt the Euro.  We could create our own currency but we run the risk a soaring Scottish pound, which wouldn't be a good thing in the long term.


If you kept the pound without a currency union it would be your own created currency 'the Scottish pound, or poond) and since staying in Europe is so important surely Scotland should be wanting EU currency union.

Take a chance on it?  There is nothing too loose! It's continue on the road to ruin or actually take a turn and follow a route of our own choosing, that will absolutely certainly not be in the direction we are headed today.


Hmmm

What about Trident? will it be staying in Scotland?

Now there's a thing .  Anybody wanna bet against me on a currency union?  Probably not- eh?

[midden]

 
 - or do you look down your nose on all those who aren't well informed (i.e. the majority) and say well, let me decide for you cos I know it all?

Enter George Orwell
All animals are equal except some are more equal than others 

[lew600fazer]

Mickvp,

What you will get is the chance to vote for a government, elected in Scotland, by the Scottish people, to take the decisions in Scotland that effect us here in Scotland.

It does not current matter one jot what we vote up here in Scotland, England elects the government - period.  What's the point?

Much of what you are refering  to will be negotiated over or will be decided upon by the first Scottish government.  Remember that will be a government that we will have elected, and that will be answerable to us. 

Scotland has one of the strongest economies on the world, not a lot will change.   My money is on a currency union, it's the most likely outcome, but you know what, who cares, we can use the pound without a currency union or adopt the Euro.  We could create our own currency but we run the risk a soaring Scottish pound, which wouldn't be a good thing in the long term.

Take a chance on it?  There is nothing too loose! It's continue on the road to ruin or actually take a turn and follow a route of our own choosing, that will absolutely certainly not be in the direction we are headed today.

What about Trident? will it be staying in Scotland?

Now there's a thing .  Anybody wanna bet against me on a currency union?  Probably not- eh?

Mickvp,

What you will get is the chance to vote for a government, elected in Scotland, by the Scottish people, to take the decisions in Scotland that effect us here in Scotland.

It does not current matter one jot what we vote up here in Scotland, England elects the government - period.  What's the point?

Much of what you are refering  to will be negotiated over or will be decided upon by the first Scottish government.  Remember that will be a government that we will have elected, and that will be answerable to us. 

Scotland has one of the strongest economies on the world, not a lot will change.   My money is on a currency union, it's the most likely outcome, but you know what, who cares, we can use the pound without a currency union or adopt the Euro.  We could create our own currency but we run the risk a soaring Scottish pound, which wouldn't be a good thing in the long term.

Take a chance on it?  There is nothing too loose! It's continue on the road to ruin or actually take a turn and follow a route of our own choosing, that will absolutely certainly not be in the direction we are headed today.

What about Trident? will it be staying in Scotland?

Now there's a thing .  Anybody wanna bet against me on a currency union?  Probably not- eh?

Up until I read this thread VNA I thought you were serious, now I realise you are taking the piss, (Scotland has one of the strongest economies on the world, not a lot will change) A statement like more oil than Kuwait? thing is the population of kuwait is only 3.2 million Kuwait has a proven oil reserve of 104 BILLION Barrels(produces 7% of the worlds oil production. Salmonds estimation is 20, 25 30 BILLION barrels, great he is only guessing.
Try spending a Scottish £10.00 down in England (no fecker wants it, best way to off load it is top up with petrol and then go in and pay with it. More often than not they will say not taking that mate, Ah!! all I have got, mate so unless you want to suck the petrol out of my tank, take the Hooters £10 note.

One thing I think the English should insist on is IF SCOTLAND VOTE FOR INDEPENDANCE that fecking wall should go back up, the one the Roman fella built and all OAT MEAL SAVAGES living in what remains of the UNITED KINGDOM should be deported.
If the vote is to maintain Scotland within the UK, Salmond and his Cronies should bet tried for treason

[midden]

Don't think Hadrian to small and besides it cost too much relocating it.
Better think Game of thrones wall. That'll keep the beasties oot and our tax dodging (allegedly) bricklayers in work for some years. even be enough for our Polish brothers

[VNA - BMW Wank]

what, for instance, will be the debt situation for Scotland after?

Well that's another reason why there will be a currency union.  If there is no currency union, then Scotland is free to walk away from UK debt.  Under a currency union we will have to shoulder our fair share of the debt.

Why should anyone trust what YOU say on the subject?

It's not a matter of trusting poor old VNA!  But what is clear is that Scotland would if Independent elect a government of it's own choice, not have England choose a government for us.

Let me put it this way.  Scotland has 5 million people.  England has 50 million people.  England clearly drives in a different political direction from Scotland.  In crude terms you could say England is right wing, and Scotland is left wing.  But Scotland is dragged along in the right wing neo con direction against it's will because we are 5 million votes against 50 million. 

The Scottish Parliament has acted as a buffer, diluting the worst of the English neo con madness.  But it's only a buffer, we are still left swimming against the tide, and that tide is dragging out further out.

Also I like small government, government that is readily accessible and accountable.  Westminster is big, remote and aloof. 

Are you not doing exactly the same as Salmond, just brow beating everyone into your way of thinking?

The SNP has virtually no media support, it's attacked on all sides relentlessly, but despite this it has achieved what is supposed to be absolutely impossible - this referendum.  It's utterly ridiculous and unfounded this accusation that somehow Wee Eck is a big bully brow beating people into submission.  It's laughable.

I don't claim to know an awful lot about the outcomes. But this is because we don't get informed by reasoned debate from qualified people. That's what this issue really needs before a single vote is taken in a referendum - or do you look down your nose on all those who aren't well informed (i.e. the majority) and say well, let me decide for you cos I know it all?

I think at the end of the day everybody in Scotland should be making their own mind up Nick.  I'm a political animal, though I'm not out actively campaigning on this issue, but if you ask me my opinion, I'll offer it to you.

There's a lot of information out there, this is an important issue.  And I think in the next few months people will get more and more interested in this debate.  I'd also expect a big turn out on this one, it's potentially a once in a life time vote and the biggest thing this wee country will ever get to vote on.


 

Me and my wife got married in Gretna green ( i am a lesbo(new wench from last night) lover)


We have a tin of Tartan shortbread at Christmas.


And i saw Andy Murray on the telly playing tennis.


Does this mean i am Scottish ?

slimwilly, if you live in Scotland, and you are on the Scottish electoral roll, then you are in effect Scottish, even if you are English      

[VNA - BMW Wank]

One thing I think the English should insist on is IF SCOTLAND VOTE FOR INDEPENDANCE that fecking wall should go back up, the one the Roman fella built and all OAT MEAL SAVAGES living in what remains of the UNITED KINGDOM should be deported.

Oh no, no, no.  You'd need to move it sooth a bit.  We want Yorkshire.  I like Yorkshire, a lot of us do.  And it used to be ours.  We want it back.

[Hedgetrimmer]

One thing I think the English should insist on is IF SCOTLAND VOTE FOR INDEPENDANCE that fecking wall should go back up, the one the Roman fella built and all OAT MEAL SAVAGES living in what remains of the UNITED KINGDOM should be deported.

Oh no, no, no.  You'd need to move it sooth a bit.  We want Yorkshire.  I like Yorkshire, a lot of us do.  And it used to be ours.  We want it back.

Oh shit, our sovreign's children have all died and he's fallen off a cliff - let's invite the English king in to govern us - make up yer feckin minds! 

[midden]

what, for instance, will be the debt situation for Scotland after?

Well that's another reason why there will be a currency union.  If there is no currency union, then Scotland is free to walk away from UK debt.  Under a currency union we will have to shoulder our fair share of the debt.
   

Surely as with all divorces the proportion of debt will be offset when sharing out the gold. Thus the more debt we can show Scotland responsible for  (say like the cost for constructing and maintaining that parliament building) the less gold share they'll get

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Surely as with all divorces the proportion of debt will be offset when sharing out the gold. Thus the more debt we can show Scotland responsible for  (say like the cost for constructing and maintaining that parliament building) the less gold share they'll get

Aye but remember, nae currency union, nae debt sharing. 

That's the problem 'better together have', they keep getting found out, their silly childish threats are nothing but bluff and blunder (does that sound enougth like Wee Eck fae ye Nick?).

That bloody building was foisted upon us by England, no doubt to try and make the Scottish Parliament look ridiculous, and gave us our first controversy.  Of course it was portrayed as the first act of the Scottish Parliament itself, which of course was another popular media myth. 

[Hedgetrimmer]

Pointless thread is pointless.
I'm not going to learn anything here, just a load of mudslinging 

[rustyrider]

There's an interesting parallel here.  Crimea is a region within the state of Ukraine.  Crimea recently had a referendum on whether it wanted to remain part of the Ukraine or become part of Russia.  The result was, allegedly, that a resounding majority wanted to become part of Russia.  Now the EU, NATO, UN and various other acronyms have all stated that the referendum is illegal as it would have needed to be a referendum over all of the independent state of Ukraine and not just the region of Crimea.

Following that logic, surely the vote for Scottish independence should be open to everyone that is likely to be affected, the entire UK?

[Hiswitsend]

Except Scotland isn't a region of England...it is a country in its own right...


Think of what was the USSR rather than just Russia and you are closer.


Other regions of England are simply that and while they are suffering a similar neglect due to the concentration of population and business around London, their situation is quite different.


Although I think Doncaster is officially Scottish...
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/doncaster--is-part-of-scotland--after-900-year-old-administrative-error-comes-to-light.html#05olkzh

[VNA - BMW Wank]

There's an interesting parallel here.  Crimea is a region within the state of Ukraine.  Crimea recently had a referendum on whether it wanted to remain part of the Ukraine or become part of Russia.  The result was, allegedly, that a resounding majority wanted to become part of Russia.  Now the EU, NATO, UN and various other acronyms have all stated that the referendum is illegal as it would have needed to be a referendum over all of the independent state of Ukraine and not just the region of Crimea.

There is no parallel.  The Crimean referendum followed an uprising within Crimea (obviously there were other major events in Ukraine that preceded this) along with invading Russian militias and armed forces.  It was held at two days notice and many communities within Crimea refused to take part.  In short, over the period of a few days Russia annexed Crimea.  You could call it a referendum at gun point.

And all that may have been part of the price that the west has to pay for ignoring Russia on the international stage, and considering it to a spent force.  Putin has a number of reasons for taking this action, one of them is sending a message to the west.  The spent force has made the west look impotent. 

Scotland as Hiswitsend points out is not a region of England, it's a country and is currently part of a union called the United Kingdom.  We have a devolved parliament and a democratic process.  In the SNP manifesto before the last Scottish election was a pledge to hold a referendum on full Independence.  The SNP achieved the impossible - a majority in a coalition parliament.  Hence we now have a referendum. 

Of course we do not have the right to hold a binding referendum on Independence.  Westminster initially refused to recognise any such referendum.  But it was clear that Scotland was going to hold a consultative referendum anyway.  So Westminster - umm hang on a minute........;

Remember that name - Jose Manuel Barroso?  You know.......

Jose Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, said it would be “very difficult, if not impossible” for Scotland to get the agreement of all EU states to join the bloc.

That name that your English press and the BBC love to keep quoting and referring to his statements on Scotland joining the EU (seemingly forgetting that we are already EU members), well he is refusing Catalonia the very type of referendum that we are holding in Scotland.  Get it?  But the popular press keep quoting him despite his lack of credibility on the issue and crystal clear agenda.  And of course they think that Scots won't notice this.

If there is a YES vote, it will be down to the failure of the 'Better Together' campaign.  It is theirs to loose, and bit by bit they appear to be loosing it.  eg.  Not having the balls to be honest about the EU and the pound.  Yet again Scotland is being lied to.

[Hedgetrimmer]

Angela Merkel has also hinted that perhaps Germany doesn't think that Scottish independance is a great idea, saying that Europe wishes for a strong UK within Europe, to aid with Europe's bargaining/negotiating powers with the US and other leading world economies. It seems to me that both Scotland and the UK as it then would be, would be weaker for this move. Other than that, Europe seems strangely quiet on the subject.
 
I dunno, maybe it would be better for the Scots. But they are not the only ones disillusioned with the direction our Westminster rabble are taking us, or how they behave generally. Maybe I should declare for independance - I'll take a quick referendum - yes, it's unanimous, Nick Crisp has voted to be independant and run his own affairs! 
 
One would hope that if Scotland does go independant, the emotionally charged extremists would be sidelined and more sensible heads would agree to work closely with the UK on various matters.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Angela Merkel has also hinted that perhaps Germany doesn't think that Scottish independance is a great idea, saying that Europe wishes for a strong UK within Europe, to aid with Europe's bargaining/negotiating powers with the US and other leading world economies.

Obviously she's gonna say something moderately supportive of the UK, that at the same time is not going upset Scotland.  Politics. 

One would hope that if Scotland does go independant, the emotionally charged extremists would be sidelined and more sensible heads would agree to work closely with the UK on various matters.

Indeed , come a yes vote the extremists at Westminster are going to have to have a rethink.  The bullying lies and intimidation having failed, well they will have to grasp the reality of the situation and start becoming more practicable  and reasonable.  Well one would hope so - but will they?

[Hedgetrimmer]

The independance lobby has plenty of it's own extremists, and well you know that I meant to include those in that statement. But yes, lets hope for more level heads on both sides. This constant slagging of Westminster, or of The Scottish parliament, or whoever, won't help matters at the end of the day. Why not just concentrate on the practicalities of the thing? If the Scottish majority really wish for this, then they'll probably get it. Better to focus on how to make it work than just keep stirring up bad feeling (although obviously that's part of the independance movement's way of persuading the Scots to vote yes  ).
 
One question does stay in my mind though - is there not any way that Scotland could work for greater independance within the UK, perhaps some way of keeping the more powerful position we'd all have with the UK as a union, but allowing Scotland to run itself as the people wish? I know you will say (VNA) no cos Westminster will constantly meddle etc, but maybe it could work with a bit more thinking outside the box? Obviously, it would mean for both sides to drop many preconceptions and be prepared for quite large scale change nevertheless, but.....? Is there any precedent of such a thing working? Or could a workable precedent be set?

[midden]

The sad bit is unless this ends with a yes vote and independence is won the extremists will not stop screaming for another referendum. It really won't matter that the majority have spoken.
Yet if the result is yes to independence the No voters will be told to shut up and put up the majority have spoken.

[Fazerider]

what, for instance, will be the debt situation for Scotland after?

Well that's another reason why there will be a currency union.  If there is no currency union, then Scotland is free to walk away from UK debt.  Under a currency union we will have to shoulder our fair share of the debt.

Yes, Alex Salmond declared that Scotland would walk away from their portion of UK debt if they were denied the UK pound, but since the UK Treasury had previously announced that the debt would be underwritten in the case of independence his threat is empty. It would also be counterproductive.
Superficially, it looks like a great deal for an independent Scotland, but it isn't. Scotland would still be liable for servicing the portion of debt… starting out with zero credit history is bad enough, refusing to pay interest on the existing debt would instantly make Scotland a defaulting nation so would push up borrowing rates a lot further.
In the event of a "yes" vote (once all the political grandstanding is over and the two sides have to deal with reality) the most likely outcome would be to allow Scotland to continued use of the GB pound in exchange for ceding some control over taxation and spending.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

The independance lobby has plenty of it's own extremists

Who?  And what of their extremism.   Seriously you'll have to spell it out to me, as I have not got a clue what you are on about.

This constant slagging of Westminster

It's pointing out the facts behind the lies, intimidation and bullying.  Better together, up to this point is doing all the hard graft for the YES campaign. 

You know it wasn't that many years that Westminster put doon the wee upitty nationalist minority by telling us Scots that our country was an economic basket case, we were subsidy junkies and our precious oil was about run oot in a few years! 

That argument is over.  Nobody today doon sooth would dare tae suggest that an independent Scotland is not viable. 

One question does stay in my mind though - is there not any way that Scotland could work for greater independance within the UK, perhaps some way of keeping the more powerful position we'd all have with the UK as a union, but allowing Scotland to run itself as the people wish?

Well that's what Better Together has promised us.  But they won't tell us what that means.  There's no substance.  It's pig in a poke politics. 

That might be fine.  But England is right wing, it's obsessed with the free market, with privatisation.  It's imperialistic too, it wants to spend our oil money on nuclear weapons and illegal immoral wars.

Others may have a differing stance, but I want independence.

The sad bit is unless this ends with a yes vote and independence is won the extremists will not stop screaming for another referendum. It really won't matter that the majority have spoken.

Or is that it, if you want independence, you are an extremist!

Sure, it took two shots to get our parliament.  It might take two shots to get our independence...........

[midden]

The independance lobby has plenty of it's own extremists

Sure, it took two shots to get our parliament.  It might take two shots to get our independence...........

Isn't that bully  boy tactics? We will keep taking shots until everyone agrees to vote our way?

[VNA - BMW Wank]

In the event of a "yes" vote (once all the political grandstanding is over and the two sides have to deal with reality) the most likely outcome would be to allow Scotland to continued use of the GB pound in exchange for ceding some control over taxation and spending.

Yes indeed, something along those lines. 

So what does Better Together do?  The Tories, Labour and The Lid Dems issue a joint statement saying that Scotland will not be allowed to join the remainder of the UK in a currency union.  Period.  Full Stop.  Zip.  IT WILL NOT HAPPEN, IT CANNOT HAPPEN, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

The SNP say it's Bluff and Blunder.  The whole UK media jumps on the SNP and slags em off.  A serious kicking is dished out.  Serious set back for Independence Campaign and all that.

All this crap about the Euro and currency Union dangers gets branded aboot.  Despite Mark Carney having made clear it wouldn't be a problem, yes it would work.

Does the whole of Westminster fall asleep every time Mark Carney speaks?

Then one by one, the economic experts come out and say, well this is all very strange they say, it would be detrimental to the remainder of the UK post a YES vote to deny Scotland the pound.  And that's before anybody considered the military angle (nae poond, well take yer subs away tomorrow if you don't mind)

And as it starts crumble, one anonymous Tory MP decides enougth is enougth and pulls the plug.  He leaks to the press that it is indeed bluff and blunder - it's a lie.

Good old Better Together!  Gotta love em!