Fazer 600 has a detuned R6 engine

[His Dudeness]

Is it true or is it an old wives tale? Where's the proof? Then there's the it's based on a thundercat theory

[noggythenog]

I thought it was the FZ6 that had the r6 engine.


& as far as i can tell the fzs engine isnt shared in anything else but it shares some parts with the thundercat...but you cant use them coz of the different configurations.




Something like that i reckon.

[Punkstig]

Fzs shares but a handful of things from the Thundercat, the fz6 is a detuned r6 engine, as the FZ1 is a detuned R1 engine, when they re-released the diversion they claimed this was a detuned fz6 engine.
So basically the diversion is a detuned- detuned r6 engine, or, a completely different thing!
What's the effin point eh!?

[ChristoT]

No, it's a crock o' shite! 

[HazzaBui]

Whats to stop you finding the detuning that's been done, and reverting it for more performance?
Or am I completely missunderstanding here?
Orrrr are other components attached to the engine different as well, meaning you'd need to replace a load to get performance up?


I always found this whole "we made an engine perform worse on purpose to sell a bike cheaper" idea a bit weird....

[ChristoT]

Whats to stop you finding the detuning that's been done, and reverting it for more performance?
Or am I completely missunderstanding here?
Orrrr are other components attached to the engine different as well, meaning you'd need to replace a load to get performance up?


I always found this whole "we made an engine perform worse on purpose to sell a bike cheaper" idea a bit weird....

Time to put my pedants hat on. 

(Bearing in mind this is theroy, and probably has no link to reality)

In engineering, cost is very closely linked to tolerance; the rougher the finish, the cheaper the part. If they used the R6 engine, then loosened some tolerances, the engine will still run fine, but you can't rag it as hard in case the rougher parts fail.

Or they just used the cylinder head, and applied branding - see my meme above. 

[johna6968]

I always struggled with the thundercat / fazer6 engine similarity thing too.. Thundercat did get the Ramair and downdraft carbs... FZ6 detuned to give more power lower down the rev range where i guess the more commuter orientated bike would need it..

[HazzaBui]

Ah that makes sense.  Probably should've worked that out myself - it's the same principle Intel use with their PC CPU's.
In that case, some of the engines should be able to take the torture of running at the higher tuned settings, but it's just not guaranteed, right?

[Yamazer-92]

I don't think "worse" is the correct word, I would say "more user friendly for every day use". FZS / 6 are not intended as a track / sports bike, so they "de-tuned" the engine to produce its power lower down than an R6 or thundercat or whatever but still perform reasonably well when used for mild sports use. This makes every day riding easier and the bike feels a bit more powerful at normal speeds and lower revs as a result of softer cams and different carbs. More of a linear power curve. On a track though the R6 engine makes more sense of course as you will be ragging it and it and the fact it revs higher means more hp etc. Thundercat (probably R6 too) has ram air which also helps on a track at higher speeds, otherwise it isn't really a lot more powerful than the FZS. I like the idea of the thundercat, I just hate clip ons. I would think selling your FZS and buying an old thundercat / R6 would be cheaper and safer than taking the engine to bits to make it more like one of them. More power requires suspension upgrades too.

[johna6968]

Side by side the cat and fazer engines are worlds apart, bar the obvious name on the side and displacement.. 

[stevierst]

I've gone from a string of fazers over the years, to currently owning a t'cat, and there's not a huge ammount of difference. It's basically just a sporty version of a fazer with better suspension, and a peakier power delivery.
I'm pretty certain that there's few components from each engine that are interchangeable (still got my sons fazer in the garage next to the cat.)
The fazers better round town due to the low down torque being slightly higher, and lower gearing. Get a t'cat on the open road, and it's clear to see where the improvements are.

And all you need to do is swap the clip ons over left to right, and it massively improves comfort (trust me, I've done it!). It's an all day proper sports tourer now.

[Dave48]

Think it is more accurate to describe the FZS 600 motor as a RETUNED Thundercat unit & similarly the FZ6 as RETUNED R6 motor.
It made sense for Yamaha to adapt existing engine designs for alternative use (general all-round road rather than pure "sports") since the development costs had already been paid.( Thereby increasing profitability making use of existing jigs/machine tools rather than starting from scratch)
Its not so much differences in clearances between parts inside the motor rather a case of changing things like cam profiles since altering  these has a marked effect on valve timing/duration in turn changing the way in which engines develop their power.
For all round everyday use its more important for the engine to develop its power(torque) lower down the revs scale than in similar sized sports & race bikes where the power can come in at higher rpm.   

[darrsi]

Think it is more accurate to describe the FZS 600 motor as a RETUNED Thundercat unit & similarly the FZ6 as RETUNED R6 motor.
It made sense for Yamaha to adapt existing engine designs for alternative use (general all-round road rather than pure "sports") since the development costs had already been paid.( Thereby increasing profitability making use of existing jigs/machine tools rather than starting from scratch)
Its not so much differences in clearances between parts inside the motor rather a case of changing things like cam profiles since altering  these has a marked effect on valve timing/duration in turn changing the way in which engines develop their power.
For all round everyday use its more important for the engine to develop its power(torque) lower down the revs scale than in similar sized sports & race bikes where the power can come in at higher rpm.

I'm presuming that's why plenty of people have opted for the one down on the front, and one up on the rear sprockets for a bit more grunt for daily road riding?
I might give that a go next time.

[Punkstig]

As above, when they say returned things are changed- cams, pistons etc.
You're not going to 'retune' that engine, cost wise would make no sense in relation to the engine you're trying to get it back to, not only that but the electronics package will be different too!

[ukdiceman]

Have a look at this tread:

http://www.fz6-forum.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/9985-fz6-r6-engine-differences.html

There's a post re the difference between the R6 and FZ6 engines

[His Dudeness]

So they share some similarities but you couldn't turn a fazer engine into a thundercat engine and you couldn't turn a fz6 engine into an R6 engine because they're different

[johna6968]

So they share some similarities but you couldn't turn a fazer engine into a thundercat engine and you couldn't turn a fz6 engine into an R6 engine because they're different

Is right...

[wutangbuzz]

I agree with the above and you sound like you know more than me but if there's so much difference how come they share a Haynes manual?

[Dave48]

I agree with the above and you sound like you know more than me but if there's so much difference how come they share a Haynes manual?

Haynes saving money? re the FZS 600 & Thundercat. Don't think the FZ6 shares a manual with thee R6 tho.

[Punkstig]

I agree with the above and you sound like you know more than me but if there's so much difference how come they share a Haynes manual?

God knows, but it saved me money only needing to buy one but having both bikes!

[midden]

Haynes manual model development 1998:
The FZS600 Fazer was introduced in March 1998
The engine had exterior styling differences to the Thundercat's,  but was basically the same internally.
Carburettor size was reduced to 33mm with no boosted intake.

[AdieR]

The FZ6 uses a de-tuned (or re-tuned, for more low-mid range power, and re-tuned again on the S2 bikes).

Many people will tell you that an ECU swap will give you the R6 power (and delivery) but not so; the cylinder heads are different and (as far as I know anyway) are NOT a straight swap. Even between the '04-06 FZ6 and the '07 FZ6 S2 bikes, the fuel maps are different, along with numerous cosmetic and chassis changes (different swingarm, front mudguard and differences in the fairing. Can't speak for the FZS bikes, but the FZ6 and R6 certainly don't share a Haynes manual either.

The principal for de-tuning (or re-tuning) an engine is a purely financial one; it costs a hell of a lot of dosh to design an engine (and indeed, a bike) to meet a given target (in the R6 case, it was developed ultimately for track success). By taking an existing (if previous-year) engine, modifying it, and wrapping it up in a budget chassis / suspension combo, we the people get real-world power and performance for the road, at a sensible price, thus increasing sales (ie, off-setting some of the development costs, by sharing an engine across different models). Suzuki's Bandit and Honda's Hornet 600s came about exactly the same way (de-tuned, ex sports-bike motors).