Family Military Traditions

[VNA - BMW Wank]

My Great Grand Father got killed in the battle of Arras, no doubt along with 10,000's of others.  Needless bloody slaughter.

I visited the grave a few years back, I'm guessing the first from my family to do so.  Though I've no idea, as thanks to the Great War I've distant family in Canada of whom I know nothing of.

Can believe all this talk recently of celebrating The Great War.

I was quite taken with some of the things that Harry Patch said,

War is organised murder and nothing else....politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder.       Harry Patch.

Sharp till the day he died I think.

[Skippernick]

My grandad was in Korea I think and there was a popular family story about him ending the suffering of more than 300 people when he shot the cook

 

[fazersharp]

I am reminded of that ring of red around the m25 --- that was never going to work and if it did it would never be seen from a helicopter high enough to get it all in.
Now if the same was done at a Race track with organised ride ins from all over like the Brackly air ambulance I think that would be a great success and being the great war anniversary this year also I think would work.
And then the picture from the helicopter could be sold to all of those taking part

[caretaker]

my mum was german and had to join the hitler youth! after the war her dad burnt the uniform and armbands etc.

[Skippernick]

my mum was german and had to join the hitler youth! after the war her dad burnt the uniform and armbands etc.

wow that one is different. A story from the other side as well.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Now if the same was done at a Race track with organised ride ins from all over like the Brackly air ambulance I think that would be a great success and being the great war anniversary this year also I think would work.

I hate all that poppy pish.   

It's getting ridiculous now, to the extent that people are told, no ordered to wear a poppy. 
Over my dead body will I wear Lady Bloody Haig's poppy.

Not for me.

[Skippernick]

Well it takes all sorts

[mtread]

I'm with VNA on this. A horrible part of our history. I can't believe they are issuing a £2 coin with Kitchener's poster that led so many to their death.
Nothing to celebrate. Lions led by donkeys.

[Gnasher]

Over my dead body will I wear Lady Bloody Haig's poppy.

Not for me.

While I agree with no one should be made to wear a poppy your referenece to "Lady Haig" is not quite right, it had nothing to do with her what so ever see below taken off the Poppy Factory web site

The origins of the Remembrance poppy lie with two women:

Moina Bell Michael, an American teacher, was so moved by Colonel John McRae’s poem “In Flanders Field” that she bought poppies with money collected from her colleagues and sold them to raise funds for U.S ex-Servicemen.

Madame Guerin, a Frenchwoman, took up the idea and in 1921 made and sold millions of poppies throughout the US to raise funds for the rehabilitation of areas in France devastated by the First World War. She persuaded Earl Haig to adopt the poppy for the British Legion and sent French women to London to sell them.

In 1922 Earl Haig accepted Major Howson's offer to supply poppies. The rest as they say, is history-

Personally I wear my Poppy with pride like you my family paid the ultimate price so far I've identified 11 of my family who were killed during WW1 spread across France and Belgium two on the first day of the Somme.  I was shocked when I got into the research just how many of my family were evolved and this is very, very common it is said "every" family lost someone.  An example a very good friend has an extremely rare name in the UK their family originate from Guernsey and there are only 35 registered with their name living in the country "today".  They accompanied me to Passchendaele while I was researching my family as you probably know that is the site of one of the worst WW1 battles and is now the location for Britain's largest military cemetery "Tyne Cote". 

As you can guess while there they looked up their own name and sure enough the name was there!  On returning I helped them research the person and sure enough it was their great grandfather they had no idea as no one ever spoke about him.................and that is the whole point!

For me it's not about the war it's about the millions who died in it, for most with no more than a name on a block of stone.  As time passes and records become available we can now see the truth behind most of what happened which time and time again has proved not to be what popular history was telling us.  Many aspects of it weren't even known e.g. the underground war fought in tunnels, the utter disgrace of shooting shattered men/boys or children as young as 12 who were not returned to their parents after lying about their age to join, the list goes on and on.

To me the above is why it's important not to forget, these people deserve their story being told. That said I do think there is a ever growing commercial element taking over which must be controlled to ensure the money goes to Royal British Legion to help ex service man and woman then I'm all for it!

Bring on the Ring of Red 

[lew600fazer]

My Grandfather was in the 36th division (Ulster) battle of the Somme seldom did he ever speak about it. My Dad was North Atlantic Convoys, merchant navy, sunk once but again seldom talked about it.
Me 45 years Merchant Navy, Iran Iraq war hit by rockets strait of Hermouz, 3 dead onboard, trust me I was no hero absolutely terrified 50,000 ton tanker carrying petroleum products, diffo squeaky bum time.

[Skippernick]

My Grandfather was in the 36th division (Ulster) battle of the Somme seldom did he ever speak about it. My Dad was North Atlantic Convoys, merchant navy, sunk once but again seldom talked about it.
Me 45 years Merchant Navy, Iran Iraq war hit by rockets strait of Hermouz, 3 dead onboard, trust me I was no hero absolutely terrified 50,000 ton tanker carrying petroleum products, diffo squeaky bum time.

I would have had a squeaky bum standing on the land near you with that lot.

[maddog04]

Dad was RAF in Egypt, staff driver with a sten gun, many a time driving along the straight road alongside the Suez canal he'd say the bus drivers would play chicken with him by driving straight down the middle, a few bursts off the sten made them see sense

another time he said he got a puncture and swerved and hit the only tree on the road, it saved him from going in the canal. He'd pick up an officer and be told to drive to the desert where someone at a certain point would flash a torch and he'd be told to "hang a right here" probably LRDG/SAS missions
Ended up a docker and told me stories of a docker who was ex POW in a Jap camp and he was so traumatised that he hated anything Japanese even cars. If a Jap boat docked then he'd want to kill the crew, now known as PTSD

granddad was in the Merch and got torpedoed twice on the Arctic runs, still got his medals

both gone now but I'd love to be able to sit and chew the cud with them now I'm older

[fazersharp]

Me 45 years Merchant Navy, Iran Iraq war hit by rockets strait of Hermouz,  50,000 ton tanker carrying petroleum products

And now you get your kicks from a Fazer ------ where else !!

[maddog04]

we even have a song dedicated to our fallen............its called scouser tommy


Let me tell you the story of a poor boy
Who was sent far away from his home
To fight for his king and his country
And also the old folks back home

So they put him in a Highland division
Sent him off to a far foreign land
Where the flies swarm around in their thousands
And there's nothing to see but the sands

Now the battle started next morning
Under an Arabian sun
I remember the poor Scouser Tommy
Who was shot by an old Nazi gun

As he lay on the battle field dying (dying dying)
With the blood gushing out of his head (of his head)
As he lay on the battle field dying (dying dying)
These were the last words he said...

Oh...I am a Liverpudlian
I come from the Spion Kop
I like to sing, I like to shout
I go there quite a lot (every week)

We support the team that's dressed in red
A team that we all know
A team that we call Liverpool
And to glory we will go

We've won the League, we've won the Cup
We've been to Europe too
We played the Toffees for a laugh
And we left them feeling blue - Five Nil !

One two
One two three
One two three four
Five nil !

Rush scored one
Rush scored two
Rush scored three
And Rush scored four!

look on youtube for it, was at Villa one year and it was getting belted out, one copper turned to his mate and said (does his best brummy accent!!)

" yow know what Bwian, that's the best song oive ever erd"

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Not bad.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

While I agree with no one should be made to wear a poppy your referenece to "Lady Haig" is not quite right, it had nothing to do with her what so ever see below taken off the Poppy Factory web site

Indeed you are correct about that hideous poem, the Americans the French Women and Earl Haig.  The first factory I think opened in England in 1920.  Lady Haig Established a factory in Edinburgh in 1926 http://www.ladyhaigspoppyfactory.org.uk/home and hence the poppy is commonly known to many as Lady Haig's poppy.

The poem urges us to take the fight to our foe, whilst I guess butcher Haig and his wife will be there with a little support should we make it back.

Yes people are told today to wear their poppy, and told to think of their career prospects if they refuse to do so.  If you are a BBC news presenter or journalist you will not be allowed on TV in the run up to Armistice Day unless you wear a poppy, and it must be a red poppy.

Commercialisation?  Oh yes, The British Legion are up for a bit of that, from their web site,

Get involved with the poppy appeal -

Increase sales and competitive advantage

, check it all out for yourself on one of their corporate pages complete with photo of babes throwing poppies about like confetti.  http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/corporate-partnerships

I used to wear a red poppy, but that's when it was about the quiet respectful mourning of the millions, the lost generation of The Great War.  But after visiting my Great Grandfather's grave, his generation being the first to have graves - the army previously shipping their bodies home to be minced up and used as fertilizer - I couldn't escape the irony of it all nor fail to notice the way the appeal was slowly changing.

I don't deny the very good work that the legion does, but why should our veterans, and veterans of whatever stupid war, right or wrong, fighting for rich men, then have to rely on charity to keep their heids above the watur.

Pride and ultimate sacrifice?  I have no idea how my Great Grandfather died, perhaps he was performing some heroic act, or more likely he was mowed down with 100's or 1000's of others having been ordered over the top to almost certain death by a cretin general.  The Great War is a fascinating example of how a few mad men can control 100,000's.  Making an example of a soldier, perhaps picked out at random, by murdering him seemed to be one handy little tool.

Anyway I'm sorry if I offend, but the poppy appeal gets bigger and bigger, more and more crass, dragging on unavoidably increasingly celebrating war, pride and sacrifice. 

Ach back to Harry Patch, who yes wore a Red Poppy on remembrance day;

When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Charles Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that   Harry Patch.

[Gnasher]

The first factory I think opened in England in 1920.  Lady Haig Established a factory in Edinburgh in 1926 http://www.ladyhaigspoppyfactory.org.uk/home and hence the poppy is commonly known to many as Lady Haig's poppy.

Whether Lady Haig highjacks the idea and sets up a factory in Scotland 4 years later is irrelevant, the poppy is the poopy she can call her factory what she likes and I've never heard of them but not being Scottish I guess I wouldn't!

Anyway I'm sorry if I offend, but the poppy appeal gets bigger and bigger, more and more crass, dragging on unavoidably increasingly celebrating war, pride and sacrifice.

Mate you are fully entailed to your view, which I respect but I for one don’t agree with it and there I will leave it.

[Skippernick]

Anyway I'm sorry if I offend, but the poppy appeal gets bigger and bigger, more and more crass, dragging on unavoidably increasingly celebrating war, pride and sacrifice.

Mate you are fully entailed to your view, which I respect but I for one don’t agree with it and there I will leave it.

Wearing a poppy on Remberance Sundya and Armistice Day and a couple days either side i agree with , but yes you are right on the over commercialisation of it, oh bit like christmas, trees go up after the above days, really!!!

[fazersharp]

I think the BBC are the worst for it as im sure that they have an whole army (pun) of poppyers whos sole job it is to make sure every single person appearing HAS to wear one.

[fazersharp]

I think I was me that is to blame for sending this thread off in this poppy direction with my ring of red track remark, which I slightly regret now its gone off on one.
All I wanted was a ride around a track without paying for a track day !!!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Ach, it's an opinion, a point of view, it's how I feel about this whole war and remembrance thing.

You know what if we put all the effort that we put into war, say into peace and prosperity, peace and prosperity for all......................

However, whilst much of our industry is in chronic decline, our 'defence' industry is in rude health, apparently currently worth between 30 and 40 billion quid in exports.  It's what some folks call a Industrial Military Complex.  Without war we face economic ruin. 

War, what is it good for?  Our economy - apparently.

Anyway here is where my Great Granddad lies.  I do hope I got the right fella!

I took the picture in 2001.  I showed it to my Mum and my Aunt.  I never showed it to anybody else, until I scanned the slide and posted it in 2011 on a photo-sharing site, and this is what I wrote, and like I say it's just about how I feel about things.  Sorry if I'm going on a bit Gnasher, but hopefully this is all I have to say for a wee while




A few days ago my computer screen said "11-11-11, a once in a lifetime remembrance".  I wondered what that meant. 
I heard on the radio of footballers wanting to play with the poppy on their shirts.  Fifa said no.  Politicians, fools sporting poppies, whilst sending yet more young men to their deaths, debated Fifa's ruling in Parliament.  The fools were outraged.  So, Fifa said OK, they can wear a black arm band with a poppy on it.  I wondered, what if one player says no, no I won't wear Lady Haig's Poppy, what then.
I read in my paper of Pop Idol contestants and judges sporting glitzy designer poppies. 
This is my Great Grandfathers Grave.  He, like hundreds of thousands of others, was marched needlessly to his death.  David, Son of Arthur and Mary, slaughtered at the Battle of Arras.
This photograph was taken in 2001, the slide says 01-11-01.   I got a taxi out there from Arras.  I found the grave, I sat down and offered some flowers.  Had I really found him, was he really there, did it really matter.   I spent a little time there, before quietly walking the eight or nine miles back to Arras. 
David's wife never even saw his grave, I may be the first from our family to do so.  But then I don't really know.  That death changed our family forever, maybe others, that I know not of, have also visited. 
So yes David, you are remembered, but no David I don't wear, I won't wear Lady Haig's Poppy. 

[demic77]

My Great Great Grandfather was killed somewhere near Arras, he died 10th October 1918 in the last month of the war. He was a driver with 56th Motor Transport Company, Army Service Corps, they were attached to the artillery and resupplied the guns with ammunition. He conceived my Great Grandmother whilst home on leave, returned to France and didn't come back. His truck was his by a shell and exploded, he survived for a short time after but succumbed to his wounds in a casualty clearing station, which to my understanding is a large military hospital some way behind the lines.
My great grandma never met her father but we traced him through the commonwealth war graves commission and took her to France about ten years ago to see him for the first time. Since then she has passed away, but we have revisited with my grandma and we took my children this year.

[fireblake]

Some interesting facts and a bit controversial.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25776836


Mickey

[BBROWN1664]

VNA - Why are you such an argumentative git? (I could have said something much worse)

My granddad was in the Navy during WW2 and the other granddad was something to do with the desert rats but I never managed to speak to him about it as he died when I was about 10. He never spoke to my mum or nan about it either so his story will ever be known by me. The one that was in the navy however only died about 5 years ago so I managed to speak to him a bit about his time in the navy and even managed to sail to France with him and go to the Normandy beaches where he was recounting some sorry tales.
As I said, he died 5 years ago and now my nan has cancer and may not get to see the 70th anniversary of D-day but if she does and she is fit enough to travel, I plan to be in Normandy with her on 6th June 2014 wearing a poppy to remember all of those that didn't make it off the beaches and helped ensure that cocks like VNA don't have German as their first language.

[fazersharp]

Comments like, "he like hundreds of thousands of others, was marched needlessly to his death" well yeh, but my Dad survived and so does that mean he was therefore marched out of a necessity to a victory.
I wonder what your attude would be if your great grandad had of made it through the war.