Problem with chain adjustment

[Derpdiherp]

So today I've changed the chain and sprockets on the old fazer. I'm not sure if this was happening before I did this but something weird is going on.

To move the right hand side of the wheel back when the axle is all loosened, I have to loosen off the torque arm as well for it to move - is this normal? Any ideas what could've happened if it isn't?

[fazersharp]

Not sure what you are asking, quite -- but you dont just adjust one side you do both sides the same amount to pul the wheel back

[Derpdiherp]

Yeah. I'm saying that once it's loosened (both sides) the right hand side will not move unless I undo the torsion bar which attaches to the brake caliper - then the back wheel moves freely.

Any ideas?

[fazersharp]

search this forum for brake caliper torque arm

[Derpdiherp]

Thanks. I didn't get any results though, perhaps you could link to what you're referring to?

[Fazerider]

Yes, that is normal.
The swingarm, caliper mount and torque arm are a triangle. If you change the length of one of the sides the angles have to change too.
If you don't loosen off the joints it puts strain on them and the weakest can fail as happened on Kebab19's bike last year.

[darrsi]

Loosen whatever needs loosening.
Take your time nipping up either side so the markings are spot on, then worry about the torque arm afterwards.
Your main concern is the spinning of the rear wheel and listening for any nasty noises.
It should spin with minimal fuss, indicating that the wheel is aligned properly and the chain is not chomping itself to bits trying to realign itself because it's offset.
You'll hear if it's wrong, and even if you're deaf, you'll feel it if it's not correct through the left footpeg when riding it.

[darrsi]

Don't over tighten it either, around 35mm play on the middle lower part of the chain.
It's easy to think you have it right then move the wheel a couple of mm and it can really tighten it up.
Take it for a spin to feel if all is okay, then on return give the chain a good spray with lube while it's still warm.

[Derpdiherp]

Thanks for the help guys. I was just confused because there was nothing in the haynes manual about having to loosen it before adjusting your chain, but after having the rear end apart to change the chain and sprockets it made sense that you'd need to.

Makes me cringe thinking that I never used to do it! 

[Derpdiherp]

Don't over tighten it either, around 35mm play on the middle lower part of the chain.
It's easy to think you have it right then move the wheel a couple of mm and it can really tighten it up.
Take it for a spin to feel if all is okay, then on return give the chain a good spray with lube while it's still warm.

Quick question, I've never been too sure of exactly how tight the chain should be. When you say 35mm play - do you mean if you lift the chain there's 35mm, or do you mean if you push the chain up and there's 12.5mm and push the chain down and there's 12.5mm that's right?

[darrsi]

Don't over tighten it either, around 35mm play on the middle lower part of the chain.
It's easy to think you have it right then move the wheel a couple of mm and it can really tighten it up.
Take it for a spin to feel if all is okay, then on return give the chain a good spray with lube while it's still warm.

Quick question, I've never been too sure of exactly how tight the chain should be. When you say 35mm play - do you mean if you lift the chain there's 35mm, or do you mean if you push the chain up and there's 12.5mm and push the chain down and there's 12.5mm that's right?

That actually adds up to 25mm. 


35mm in total, it'll be at its lowest point anyway.

[His Dudeness]

Flex it up and down and the total movement should be 35mm (or whatever it should be I can't remember )

[fazersharp]

The loosening of the torque arm marlaky was discussed here some time ago and I think the outcome was to do it to be safe - but like you say there is no mention of it in the manual.
But if you do not know the history of the bike then you do not know if the bolt has been replaced and it has been done up too tight before because when done properly you should not need to loosen it because the caliper should rotate and the arm then pivot as the wheel is moved back.
But no harm will be done by loosening whereas there is a chance of harm by not loosening.

[darrsi]

The loosening of the torque arm marlaky was discussed here some time ago and I think the outcome was to do it to be safe - but like you say there is no mention of it in the manual.
But if you do not know the history of the bike then you do not know if the bolt has been replaced and it has been done up too tight before because when done properly you should not need to loosen it because the caliper should rotate and the arm then pivot as the wheel is moved back.
But no harm will be done by loosening whereas there is a chance of harm by not loosening.

 

[Jamieg285]

I may be wrong, but I thought that the torque arm was supposed to pivot, otherwise it will bind and work against the suspension movement.

Based on this theory, you shouldn't have to loosen it to adjust the chain, however, when you find yourself in this scenario, remove, clean and lubricate the torque arm so that it moves properly.

[Jules-C]

Flex it up and down and the total movement should be 35mm (or whatever it should be I can't remember )

Or if you don't have enough spare hands to hold ruler steady while pushing chain up and  down adjust it so it doesn't quite touch swinging arm when pushed up and you won't be too far off.

I think later models handbook changed it to 45mm

[Fazerider]

I may be wrong, but I thought that the torque arm was supposed to pivot, otherwise it will bind and work against the suspension movement.

The torque arm would only need to pivot if the front end is fixed to the frame, on the Fazer it attaches to the swingarm so doesn't need to allow for suspension movement.

[fazersharp]

I may be wrong, but I thought that the torque arm was supposed to pivot, otherwise it will bind and work against the suspension movement.

Based on this theory, you shouldn't have to loosen it to adjust the chain, however, when you find yourself in this scenario, remove, clean and lubricate the torque arm so that it moves properly.

  I agree with this

The torque arm would only need to pivot if the front end is fixed to the frame, on the Fazer it attaches to the swingarm so doesn't need to allow for suspension movement.

That is also right - the pivoting of the arm and the rotating of the calaper comes into play when the wheel is moved back.
Look at the bolts - they are designed so that the thread ends before you can tighten up too much arnt they ?

[Jules-C]

Look at the bolts - they are designed so that the thread ends before you can tighten up too much arnt they ?

The bolts should have sufficient length of thread that they clamp properly on to the swinging arm and brake bracket.  The smooth unthreaded section is to spread the load from the torque arm over that length of the bolt and not just the high points on the thread

[His Dudeness]

Don't see how it has anything to do with suspension movement. It's fixed to the swing arm and goes through the caliper bracket which is around the axle which is fixed. There's no movement in the torque arm other than when you're moving the wheel to adjust the chain. It has to be able to pivot at one end a little because it forms a triangle and the angles change as the wheel is adjusted back and the triangle flattens. You don't really notice it until you put a new chain on and it has to move a lot in one go. I'm blaming Pythagoras for all this

[darrsi]

Flex it up and down and the total movement should be 35mm (or whatever it should be I can't remember )

Or if you don't have enough spare hands to hold ruler steady while pushing chain up and  down adjust it so it doesn't quite touch swinging arm when pushed up and you won't be too far off.

I think later models handbook changed it to 45mm

You think ???

[darrsi]

All I keep reading everywhere after a quick search is 30-40mm.......or.......35mm.


45mm is just too much in my opinion.

[Derpdiherp]

So.. Err.. The consensus is the torque arm should be fitted fairly loosely - or at least loose enough to allow the brake to move backward with the wheel when adjusting the chain?

I can't see much harm in having it nipped up to being pretty solid - as has been said it shouldn't move except for when you adjust the chain / fit a new chain.

Edit - Only reason why I'd prefer to have it nipped up fairly hard is the fact that that is all that is stopping the rear brake from going on a whirlygig round the brake disk! Or at least moving a little horizontally.

[Jules-C]

Torque are bolts slackened so loose while adjusting chain but tightened to correct torque (or fairly tight using ordinary spanners) before riding bike again.

[Jules-C]

I'm not recommending 45mm but page 6-28 of 2003 manual says 30-45mm

The same page also says replace your brake seals (including master cylinder) every 2 years.