old - Fazer Owners Club - old
General => General => Topic started by: Doddsie on 16 July 2013, 01:55:25 pm
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Just been to local car parts place, 10w40 semi synthetic motor oil, 5L - £19.99. 10w40 semi synthetic MOTORBIKE oil, 5L, same brand - £29.99!!!! Whats the difference???
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http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Differences_Between_Car_and_Motorcycle_Oil.aspx (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Differences_Between_Car_and_Motorcycle_Oil.aspx)
...should answer that. To my knowledge, you should never use a car oil in a motorcycle engine. I'm guessing that a major part of the price difference will be due to production costs - millions more cars than motorcycles out there.
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Just been to local car parts place, 10w40 semi synthetic motor oil, 5L - £19.99. 10w40 semi synthetic MOTORBIKE oil, 5L, same brand - £29.99!!!! Whats the difference???
Aditives, composition and marketing.
Motorcycle engines as well as clutches are not the same as car ones.
Make sure it is API SG and JASO MA2 approved.
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As the others said, motorbike oil has many different properties to car oil, the main one being the wet clutch.
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With a caveat of you have to be careful what you buy i.e. no friction modifiers and it meets the standards previously mentioned, car oil is fine.
I ran my GPZ1100 for nearly 80,000 miles on cheap Ford motor oil (my dad got big discount) changed with a new filter every 3000 miles with no problems whatsoever. When he was working my dad used to run all his bikes on he same oil (CB750,CB550,CX500,CX650) for years.
Supermarket own brands are also good value as long as they meet the spec.
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With a caveat of you have to be careful what you buy i.e. no friction modifiers and it meets the standards previously mentioned, car oil is fine.
I ran my GPZ1100 for nearly 80,000 miles on cheap Ford motor oil (my dad got big discount) changed with a new filter every 3000 miles with no problems whatsoever. When he was working my dad used to run all his bikes on he same oil (CB750,CB550,CX500,CX650) for years.
Supermarket own brands are also good value as long as they meet the spec.
Motorcycle specific oil is better. Good motorcycle oil vs good car oil that is.
Differences are:
1) Revs
Motorcycle engines rev a lot higher. This asks for more anti-foaming qualities in oil. It also breaks the viscousity of oil down quicker - so it should be "tougher".
2) Power to capacity ratio
600 cc fazer engine makes almost twice the hp of a 1200 cc car petrol engine. Add a bit higher working temp, greater compression ratio. This also asks for a "tougher" oil and makes most purely mineral oils just not good enough.
3) A lot mentioned wet clutch - motorcycle oil should make good scratch protection inside the engine, witout making the clutch too slippery. If oil is JASO MA2 approved - it does just that perfectly.
Changing good motorcycle specific oil every 4000 miles is better for the motorcycle engine than changing car oil every 3000 miles.
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Mr Yamaha says SE , SF type or equivalent and don't put any additives in.
No mention of car or bike just the spec.
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Often it is no more than the label.
But if you do use a car oil you need to be sure there are no friction modifiers.
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Mr Yamaha says SE , SF type or equivalent and don't put any additives in.
No mention of car or bike just the spec.
Often bike oils quote older lower specs than car oils. Could be due to the cost of type approval tests. I dunno.
Some of the latest long life car oils are very high tech.
But again the trick is being sure a friction modifier is not present. One dose of that and you'll need a new clutch.
But basically, yes bike oil is a big rip off.
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Mr Yamaha says SE , SF type or equivalent and don't put any additives in.
No mention of car or bike just the spec.
It also says 10k kilometers oil change intervals - too much.
Better is better. For a high revving fazer engine, I wouldn't risk putting anything but bike-specific semi or full synth oil. Too much risk for a max 10e save per oil change.
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Yamaha used to recommend 4000 mile oil changes for most of their range. Then, a few years ago, they changed to 6000 miles. This applied retrospectively to some models. I guess they got more confident in their engines and/or modern oils. I'd say if you thrash your bike everywhere or maybe operate it in constantly in hot climates, 4000 miles might not be unreasonable. But generally, 6000 miles should be fine with modern oils.
Fully synthetic oil is not really necessary in most road bike engines. In some engines it can cause clutch slip, although I believe Ducati recommend it for their bikes (dry clutches of course). A good semi-synthetic is all you need, even with hard usage. Or even a good quality mineral oil will probably suffice.
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car oil comes from oil that was laid down 165 million years ago from the decomposing bodys of 4 legged dinosaurs whereas motorcycle oil comes from dinosaurs that had only two legs and that's why it's more expensive?
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My guess is you've got young kids around Chaz? :lol
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My guess is you've got young kids around Chaz? :lol
no, just talking bollocks
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:lol
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Soooo,we have sorted out the difference in car and bike oil, basically it all comes down to Diplodocus or Pterodactyl??? :eek
Next question..... is there any difference in Castrol and Duckhams etc or Asda`s own brand????
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This is a personal preference only but it's up to you - my bike is my pride and joy so I tend to use a good quality motorcycle specific oil, semi synthetic. Silkolene Comp 4 is my preferred choice (although there are others I'll accept - Motul, Shell, Castrol etc). Yes, it's pricey, but as oil changes are possibly the single most important thing you can do to help your bike's engine last, I feel it's worth it. And let's face it, the expense isn't that much every 4-6000 miles. A good mineral oil is probably not going to be any worse. I have an inherent distrust of supermarket brands, no reason for it, that's just me. Just been looking at the manual cam chain tensioner Devilsyam has been talking about. When I've got certain other things out of the way, I'll be going for one of those too - protect my pride and joy.
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A lot of people seem to distrust supermarket own brand stuff, but if its 10w40 semi synthetic bike oil, is it any different to the branded stuff??? Im guessing tesco dont have their own oil refinery so they are they not getting it from the same place?????
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I think it comes from the supermarkets f****ng up other things they've tried to get into in the past. You'd think they couldn't go far wrong with motor oil. As an example of why I don't use them, if you're going to buy an expensive camera and get serious about photography, you go to a camera specialist rather than a general store. And lets face it, your bike is not cheap -especially when things go wrong. I dunno, is that a good analogy? There again, with online shopping being so prevalent these days, maybe I'm just behind the times, but I'll still stick with what I know and trust at least until someone can completely convince me otherwise.
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It may or may not make a mechanical difference but if you feel that way about the bike and can still afford rent and food then the branded oil sounds like it's worth it to you for peace of mind.
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Well, I'm not exactly loaded, but I'm in the fortunate position of being able to afford a couple of things like that at the moment. But I have been in the position of struggling for every penny more than once before, in fact have had to sell my bikes before due to lack of funds, so if you're on a tighter budget, I do understand. I think maybe look for the JASO MA2 approval as per Slaninars post in that case. Don't know where you could look to find out if these cheaper oils are really OK though.
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I've been using GTX 10w40 semi synthetic in my car and bike if you go in wilko's, the shop not the motosave, every so often they reduce the price, recomended price is about £24 for 4 litres, normally it's £19.99 sometimes it's £14.99 and a bit ago it was £9.99
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In some engines it can cause clutch slip, although I believe Ducati recommend it for their bikes (dry clutches of course). A good semi-synthetic is all you need, even with hard usage. Or even a good quality mineral oil will probably suffice.
JASO MA, or better JASO MA2 motorcycle specific oil does NOT cause clutch to slip. That is false information.
Semi synth is good enough for most bikes (even though full synth is better in every way, except the price for most bikes).
Mineral oil is not worth the money, but each can choose for themselves.
car oil comes from oil that was laid down 165 million years ago from the decomposing bodys of 4 legged dinosaurs whereas motorcycle oil comes from dinosaurs that had only two legs and that's why it's more expensive?
I have already pointed out differences of regular car engine and a motorcycle one. So apart from marketing and lower production, there is some quality difference.
A lot of people seem to distrust supermarket own brand stuff, but if its 10w40 semi synthetic bike oil, is it any different to the branded stuff??? Im guessing tesco dont have their own oil refinery so they are they not getting it from the same place?????
Look at the standards they comply with. API SL and JASO MA2 oils tend to be more expensive than those complying to lower standards.
Also, some oils are branded "synthetic", but are really semi-synthetic.
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In some engines it can cause clutch slip, although I believe Ducati recommend it for their bikes (dry clutches of course). A good semi-synthetic is all you need, even with hard usage. Or even a good quality mineral oil will probably suffice.
JASO MA, or better JASO MA2 motorcycle specific oil does NOT cause clutch to slip. That is false information.
Semi synth is good enough for most bikes (even though full synth is better in every way, except the price for most bikes).
Mineral oil is not worth the money, but each can choose for themselves.
car oil comes from oil that was laid down 165 million years ago from the decomposing bodys of 4 legged dinosaurs whereas motorcycle oil comes from dinosaurs that had only two legs and that's why it's more expensive?
I have already pointed out differences of regular car engine and a motorcycle one. So apart from marketing and lower production, there is some quality difference.
A lot of people seem to distrust supermarket own brand stuff, but if its 10w40 semi synthetic bike oil, is it any different to the branded stuff??? Im guessing tesco dont have their own oil refinery so they are they not getting it from the same place?????
Look at the standards they comply with. API SL and JASO MA2 oils tend to be more expensive than those complying to lower standards.
Also, some oils are branded "synthetic", but are really semi-synthetic.
Yes, just looked this up and it seems you are quite right Slaninar. Fully Synthetics don't cause clutch slip - my mistake, apologies. Do you perhaps know of a good site where we can read up on API and JASO standards?
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Yes, just looked this up and it seems you are quite right Slaninar. Fully Synthetics don't cause clutch slip - my mistake, apologies. Do you perhaps know of a good site where we can read up on API and JASO standards?
Not in English I'm afraid.
This is more towards cars, and do not take it all for granted (as they claim to be "The Bible) of course:
http://www.zag.si/~jank/public/bmw/oil_bible.pdf (http://www.zag.si/~jank/public/bmw/oil_bible.pdf)
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Mmmm...some interesting reading on there. But as you say, can't all be taken for granted. That's the trouble with oil - because of the vast profits to be made, it's always going to be difficult to find a source you can really trust. However, I think if you read from as many different sources as possible, a consensus could be arrived at.
But thanks for the link, it all helps.
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1. When you get your bike serviced they take oil out of a big drum. I assume that this is nothing special, just the minimum spec oil without the car additives.
2. When people say a motorbike engine creates more shear etc and therefore needs a thicker oil, how do you know that the motorbike oil that is sold is any 'thicker' (or fuller, etc) than car oil, except that it is described as motorcycle oil? Is the oil in (1) suitable for motorcycles?
3. What's to stop someone arranging a supply of ASDA car oil (without the agents) then bottling it up with a picture of a motorcycle on it? Would make a tidy profit! Is there a trading standard that states a motorcycle oil must have certain standards to differentiate it from car oil?
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1. When you get your bike serviced they take oil out of a big drum. I assume that this is nothing special, just the minimum spec oil without the car additives.
2. When people say a motorbike engine creates more shear etc and therefore needs a thicker oil, how do you know that the motorbike oil that is sold is any 'thicker' (or fuller, etc) than car oil, except that it is described as motorcycle oil? Is the oil in (1) suitable for motorcycles?
3. What's to stop someone arranging a supply of ASDA car oil (without the agents) then bottling it up with a picture of a motorcycle on it? Would make a tidy profit! Is there a trading standard that states a motorcycle oil must have certain standards to differentiate it from car oil?
1. The oil a dealer has in the drum is (supposedly) the same as is available in 1 or 4 litre bottles, dependant of course on which oils he chooses to stock.
2. The weight of the oil is described on the packaging, eg 10W40, 20W50 etc.
3.No idea!
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1. When you get your bike serviced they take oil out of a big drum. I assume that this is nothing special, just the minimum spec oil without the car additives.
2. When people say a motorbike engine creates more shear etc and therefore needs a thicker oil, how do you know that the motorbike oil that is sold is any 'thicker' (or fuller, etc) than car oil, except that it is described as motorcycle oil? Is the oil in (1) suitable for motorcycles?
Not necesserily thicker oil. Just more durable - not loosing viscousity as quickly.
3. What's to stop someone arranging a supply of ASDA car oil (without the agents) then bottling it up with a picture of a motorcycle on it? Would make a tidy profit! Is there a trading standard that states a motorcycle oil must have certain standards to differentiate it from car oil?
There is a JASO, Japanese standard, made just for that reason - to make sure oil is good for motorcycle engine AND clutch. Japanese big four made that standard to protect themselves - something along the line of: if you pour JASO approved oil and engine/clutch still make problems, then you can blame the producer.
There are good and bad car, as well as motorcycle oils. The thing gets more complicated when you consider false packages (very common where I live - people copy the original package and sell cheap oil).
Motorcycle will run on any API SG oil (without the "fuel economy" additives that ruin the clutch). But the engine run on good, full synth oil will work better and last longer with the same use.
The most important thing is to change oil regularly and to warm the engine up before riding hard.
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OK, we`re getting there, so what oil do people recommend??
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OK, own preference only - Silkolene Comp 4, (semi-synthetic 10w40, motorcycle specific, meets API SG, SH ,SJ AND JASO MA , MA2 specs)
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I use Motul 5100 semi syn 10w 40...
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Both mentioned Silkolene Comp 4 and Motul 5100 are VERY good semi-synthetic oils. Probably the best money-value solution for Fazers.
I use fully synth oils: at the moment Motul 7100 10w40, since I got it at a discount price.
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271003275374?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271003275374?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648)
good choice??
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Yes, meets all necessary specs, and will look after your engine just fine.
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Here's a bit of a bargain,
http://www.wilko.com/car-maintenance/wilko-petrol-15w-40-motor-oil-5ltr/invt/0198942 (http://www.wilko.com/car-maintenance/wilko-petrol-15w-40-motor-oil-5ltr/invt/0198942)
Or if your feeling flush and got another £1.50 treat yourself to some semi skimmed. :)
http://www.wilko.com/car-maintenance/wilko-semi-synthetic-formula-10w-40-motor-oil-5ltr/invt/0257972 (http://www.wilko.com/car-maintenance/wilko-semi-synthetic-formula-10w-40-motor-oil-5ltr/invt/0257972)
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[url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271003275374?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271003275374?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648[/url])
good choice??
Very good. :)
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OK, sorted, cheers everyone!!! :D
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A lot of people seem to distrust supermarket own brand stuff, but if its 10w40 semi synthetic bike oil, is it any different to the branded stuff???
Probably yes, but almost certainly not different enough to worry about.
Can any of the people on here relate a story where an engine broke because they used cheap oil rather than expensive oil? I doubt it and I'd bet that most bikers don't know what happens inside an engine when an oil breaks down and stops doing it's job.
If everyone on the forum just used cheapo mineral based Castrol GTX (£16 for 4 litres) for the rest of their lives I bet we'd never hear of an oil related breakdown.
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Can any of the people on here relate a story where an engine broke because they used cheap oil rather than expensive oil?
That is true. Breakdowns occur when there is not (enough) oil in the engine.
However, better oils will make engine use less fuel, have slightly more HP, last a bit longer.
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However, better oils will make engine use less fuel, have slightly more HP, last a bit longer.
I have to say I rather doubt it. A 'better' oil might last longer, but it will have sod all effect on fuel consumption (unless you use something really nasty) and no effect on BHP (again unless you use something nasty.
Just get some half decent semi-synth, do regular changes and stop worrying about oil.
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Worth reading Slaninars link on page one of this thread, especially "The Truth About Motorcycle Oils" chapter. All oil manufacturers claim increases in engine performance, fuel consumption and longevity when they bring new products onto the market. As has been previously discussed here, there are reasons not to trust some of these claims, but if you go to any reputable source, you will find similar claims made, and reasons given.
Not worrying, just interested.
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I have to say I rather doubt it. A 'better' oil might last longer, but it will have sod all effect on fuel consumption (unless you use something really nasty) and no effect on BHP (again unless you use something nasty.
Differences are slight. The biggest advantage is better engine protection - especially during cold starting, as well as during high revving, and high engine temperatures.
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Lubricant manufacturers do themselves no favours by letting the marketing men provide the descriptions for oil. Being non-scientists they naturally have nothing to offer but hype and bullshit when hard facts and a detailed listing of the additive package would go a long way to earning trust.
However, it's pretty obvious that oil in your bike engine has a harder time than it would in Ford Ka. Aside from wet clutch requirements, the power per cc of cylinder displacement is greater than that of a Mclaren F1 and the oil is shared with the gearbox which in a car is typically filled with oil of far higher viscosity.
So, if you're happy to buy the cheapest 10W-40 that you can find in Asda for your bike, and are convinced that motorcycle oil is just car oil with the word "motorcycle" on the packaging you might wonder why oil companies provide oil of unnecessarily high quality for under-stressed engines.
Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.
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Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.
Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.
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think i've got some fuchs 10w40 bike oil in mine at the moment
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The Wilko oil I use isn't car oil it's just motor oil of the required spec as stated in the manual.
This cannot be wrong can it?
73,000 miles and counting.
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So, if you're happy to buy the cheapest 10W-40 that you can find in Asda for your bike, and are convinced that motorcycle oil is just car oil with the word "motorcycle" on the packaging you might wonder why oil companies provide oil of unnecessarily high quality for under-stressed engines.
Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.
Most of what is being said here is opinion and here say, not fact.
Pretty much all we have to go on are specs.
I think we are just going round in circles.
OK, here's a question, does anything in the spec on the can tell you whether there are friction modifiers or not? I don't think there is. There may be clues like 'optimised for fuel economy' in which case you avoid like the plague.
Lets face it oil companies, as far as I can see, manufacture an oil to meet a spec. Then they can re-brand, if they wish to suit. They can stick a picture of a car on one tin, a bike on another, a truck on another etc. The stuff in the car tin may or may not have fiction modifiers in it. But a picture of a high performance bike is always a great opportunity to shove the price up.
Also the quality of car oil and the demands on the stuff have increased considerably in the last decade. Have a look at the specs, say for example, of some of the latest small capacity turbo charged car engines. Note the impressive BHP and torque figures, plus it's got a turbo to contend with and a 20,000 mile service interval.
You could spend quite a bit of time figuring out oil specs, maybe contacting oil companies for the finer details (they may or may not want to be helpful) and will probably end up buying a far better oil for a much better price for your bike, and I bet it won't have a picture of a motorcycle on the tin.
Oh don't forget truck oil. They probably have the highest specs of all road going engines, and could be just the ticket for the bike. You'd have to buy a big drum though.
But seriously unless you really know your oil, most of what is being written here (maybe my post too?) is just hot air.
I just buy a semi synth with a picture of a bike on the front. Expensive, and last time I looked up the spec years ago, pretty basic too. But I haven't yet bothered to work out how to get something better for less for my bike. Probably because the time ain't worth the tenner a year I'd save.
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So, if you're happy to buy the cheapest 10W-40 that you can find in Asda for your bike, and are convinced that motorcycle oil is just car oil with the word "motorcycle" on the packaging you might wonder why oil companies provide oil of unnecessarily high quality for under-stressed engines.
Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.
Most of what is being said here is opinion and here say, not fact.
Pretty much all we have to go on are specs.
I think we are just going round in circles.
OK, here's a question, does anything in the spec on the can tell you whether there are friction modifiers or not? I don't think there is. There may be clues like 'optimised for fuel economy' in which case you avoid like the plague.
Lets face it oil companies, as far as I can see, manufacture an oil to meet a spec. Then they can re-brand, if they wish to suit. They can stick a picture of a car on one tin, a bike on another, a truck on another etc. The stuff in the car tin may or may not have fiction modifiers in it. But a picture of a high performance bike is always a great opportunity to shove the price up.
Also the quality of car oil and the demands on the stuff have increased considerably in the last decade. Have a look at the specs, say for example, of some of the latest small capacity turbo charged car engines. Note the impressive BHP and torque figures, plus it's got a turbo to contend with and a 20,000 mile service interval.
You could spend quite a bit of time figuring out oil specs, maybe contacting oil companies for the finer details (they may or may not want to be helpful) and will probably end up buying a far better oil for a much better price for your bike, and I bet it won't have a picture of a motorcycle on the tin.
Oh don't forget truck oil. They probably have the highest specs of all road going engines, and could be just the ticket for the bike. You'd have to buy a big drum though.
But seriously unless you really know your oil, most of what is being written here (maybe my post too?) is just hot air.
I just buy a semi synth with a picture of a bike on the front. Expensive, and last time I looked up the spec years ago, pretty basic too. But I haven't yet bothered to work out how to get something better for less for my bike. Probably because the time ain't worth the tenner a year I'd save.
Which is all why I read what I can on such subjects. Where sources disagree, ok the jury's out, you may never know. But if you get a good consensus of opinion across as many sources as you can find, then that's probably your best guide. You're absolutely right, opinions from the layman (ie most of us) aren't much use. But there is a wealth of information out there from professional sources, it'd be churlish to ignore it. I've worked in a lot of bike shops down the last 15 years or so, ok, not as a mechanic/technician, but I listen, and yes I've heard conflicting opinions about many things, but gradually you narrow it down to the things everyone agrees on. I like to think that's what we're trying to do here on this thread and on others like it. So I pay more attention to the guys who say, "this is what I did, and this was the result", rather than just "this is what I think". And if you're still not convinced, well you store it away until further information comes in and then assess it again. In this particular case, we all use oil, so it makes sense to try to find out a few facts about the stuff.
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Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.
Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.
Yes, it would be useful to know if this (cam lobe wear) problem was definitely due to the oil you used, and how you can be sure of this?
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Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.
Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.
Yes, it would be useful to know if this (cam lobe wear) problem was definitely due to the oil you used, and how you can be sure of this?
True, I can't prove it wouldn't have happened anyway.
I should have kept an identical bike running on Silkolene and ridden them alternately. Remiss of me.
As it stands it is only anecdotal evidence, it was enough to convince me that saving perhaps £2 per thousand miles isn't worth the risk.
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Simon.Pieman/VNA: I have used car oil (and not the cheapest) in bikes and regretted it… not that the engine actually broke as a result, but power gradually dropped off as the cam lobes suffered excessive wear.
Castrol GTX (white can) is not strictly a car oil, it was advertised in bike magazines and MCN for many years as the stuff to put in your bike.
As for cam wear, how do you know it was the oil? many many bikes have suffered endemic cam lobe wear which is usually a hardening issue. I had a GPz900 in the eighties and almost the entire production run of the first model had premature camlobe wear for example.
Yes, it would be useful to know if this (cam lobe wear) problem was definitely due to the oil you used, and how you can be sure of this?
True, I can't prove it wouldn't have happened anyway.
I should have kept an identical bike running on Silkolene and ridden them alternately. Remiss of me.
As it stands it is only anecdotal evidence, it was enough to convince me that saving perhaps £2 per thousand miles isn't worth the risk.
Hey, no one's having a dig at you here - you might have some useful information from your experience. Did you only use this oil with one bike, or more than one? If only one, ok, it's possible the oil had something to do with the problem. If more than one, and only one bike had the problem then possibly the oil wasn't to blame on balance. Was it a bike model known to have such problems anyway? So that narrows it down a bit more. So then you think, did anyone else use this oil in a bike and have the same problem? Simple deduction process. But you'll already have filed some of this info away, so when you see a similar problem or comment in the future, that's another piece in the puzzle. By the way, I'm not grilling you here, it's just that some people seem to get very frustrated with what is after all just a discussion, in my opinion an interesting one, maybe not in your opinion. So then, you don't have to get involved; add your information to the fund and leave it to boring old gits like me to pursue it if that's what we like to do :) As to spending the extra for what you know and trust, that's exactly what I do. :) :) And I don't mean to sound at all condescending here - maybe my wording could be a bit better.
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Oops! Meant to stick a smiley at the end of the second line of my last post, forgot, and what was meant to be mildly humorous ended up reading like I was having a hissy fit.
I was just trying to make the point that Simon's request for examples of problems caused by car oil being responsible for bike engine failure being followed by a demand to prove it was a bit pointless. From a statistical point of view, there won't be enough data to establish a causal link even if every member of this forum contributed detailed account of every bike they owned, mileages and oil used.
A blind test with two identical bikes alternated regularly between two riders and run for say, 50,000 miles each and followed by a forensic examination would offer much more convincing evidence whether or not bike oil is just car oil with the price jacked up. "Ride" magazine used to do various long term tests, but so far as I know that isn't something they've attempted.
In the absence of scientific studies I'd tried to look at the problem from the other direction. That is, that it's obvious that the oil has a tougher environment in a bike than it does in a car. So, oil companies would hardly limit themselves to ripping off thousands of bikers on the one hand yet supply millions of car drivers with oil that is way better than it needs to be for their purposes. Therefore car and bike oils must be different.
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For me , there's never been any argument that car and motorcycle oils are, and need to be, different. I'm not so cynical that I disbelieve everything the oil companies say. I also wouldn't discount claims of improved fuel consumption and increased power output totally. But as Slaninar says, those benefits may be minimal. The oil companies make vast profits as we all know, but they also stand to lose a great deal if found to be making false claims. Your way of approaching the problem is a much more practical solution from our point of view. But I never thought I'd find the subject so fascinating - must be getting old!
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Its difficult to separate the solid facts from all the marketing hype but in the final analysis I want to know that my oil meets the required JASO/SAE standard for the engine its being used in. The viscosity range depends on local climate eg 10W-40 in my Fazer in UK. I am told to avoid friction modifiers and detergent rich oils(as used in diesel engines to keep product of combustion particles in suspension). So now I am looking at oils designed-yes designed-for use in motorcycles-ie high revving,high specific power output(BHP per Litre) with lubricant shared by engine,clutch & gearbox. If I saw such oil for sale in any outlet(Wilkos Asda Tescos etc) I would have no qualms buying it.
if I do 3000 miles per annum on my bike & change the oil & filter every year its not going to be a costly exercise if I look for the supplier offering the best deal for what I want. If Yamaha specify a certain standard for oil that's good enough for me. The reason for the annual change is simply that my bike doesn't get used much in the colder months & cold storage can lead to condensation & acid build up in cold damp conditions. I am quite sure the oil would be good for the full 6000 miles use were I to ride all year round.
There have been various reports published about cars being driven for extended periods (20000 miles) between oil changes and there is a school of thought that suggests this isn't necessarily a good thing-but being a bit cynical this may just be the oil companies trying to shift more product!
I know my local Yamaha main dealer uses Motul oil because I have seen the empty 205Litre drums in their recycling area. I think if I did a massive mileage I would look to buy my oil of choice in bulk to reduce costs but its going to take me a long time to get through that much! :lol In the last 10 years have used Silkolene ,Motul, Yamalube and Morris Lubricants-all 10W-40 Semi synthetic in my bikes. The car gets whatever the garage uses at annual oil change-regardless of mileage as I do less than 10000miles per annum with a lot of short journeys-top up if required is with Halfords own brand or similar. The only fully synthetic oil I use is for the leaf blower/vac & strimmer as stipulated by their manufacturers so the 1951 Cycclemaster also benefits from this oil-with minimum smoke & leaned out ratio (33:1 instead of 25:1).
Don't think I would try anything in the bikes that I wasn't sure about(or as sure as any of us can be in this age of information (bullshit?) overload but Im just a cynical old git!
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In the absence of scientific studies I'd tried to look at the problem from the other direction. That is, that it's obvious that the oil has a tougher environment in a bike than it does in a car. So, oil companies would hardly limit themselves to ripping off thousands of bikers on the one hand yet supply millions of car drivers with oil that is way better than it needs to be for their purposes. Therefore car and bike oils must be different.
I agree with most of what you've said in this topic. I came to the local mechanic (a good one) with the brilliant idea:
"Why wouldn't I use non-motorcycle specific oil? It says API SG on the can, just like Yamaha recommended."
He told me that "car" oil is good enough for low revving, low power bikes, but not to put it in the Fazer. Then I talked to 2 guys who work with oil companies (one was a chemist, the other just plant engineer). Took it all with a grain of salt, but all those people have recommended motorcycle oil. They also agreed that mineral oil is not very good. They also said that although full synthetic oil IS the best in terms of protecting the engine, best thing for a fazer is a semi-synth (in terms of money-value).
As far as brands go, the oil guy that was a chemist works for Fuchs (Silkolene) recommended Silkolene, but he said Motul was just as good. The other, non-chemist guy recommended Motul as number one. Both said they don't have enough info on US brands (Bel Ray, Bardahl, Amsoil). The mechanics I talk to swear by Repsol.
I've used full synth oil in old 1997 (80s tech) Suzuki GN 125. In Fazer as well. Engines look like brand new from the inside - no grime, no problems. I stick with it. Costs 10e more per change for the fazer.
One more thing. Fazer uses 2.7 litres per oil change, while full oil capacity on stripping the engine is about 3.4 litres. Which means you always have around half a litre of old oil diluted in the engine. One more reason to use good, long lasting synthetic oil IMO.
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Yes, Motul is the Yamaha recommended oil. They're not going to recommend anything that's not good for your bike. When I was younger, I was pretty lazy about oil changes (we're talking 20-odd years ago, so I suppose I'm not that old - just feel it!). This includes in my old 750 Turbo (some of you may have gathered by now I have fond memories of that bike!), and turbos do put a very high strain on oils - they actually glow red hot. There was talk at the time that if you just shut off a turbo engine immediately after hard use, the oil would crystallise in the compressor bearing and knacker it. Don't know how true that is, but I always used to think that because my rides always finished with a slower bit at the end (residential streets going home etc), that's why I never had that problem. Nowadays I wonder if that isn't so much bullshit. But oils have come a long way since then, and even then I had no oil related problems.
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Yes, Motul is the Yamaha recommended oil. They're not going to recommend anything that's not good for your bike.
The cynic in me says they're more likely to recommend something which involves a lucrative deal with an oil supplier who'll give them a kick-back for plugging their product...
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Yeah , well, that's pretty much a given I'd say, but even so....
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The cynic in me says they're more likely to recommend something which involves a lucrative deal with an oil supplier who'll give them a kick-back for plugging their product...
Grahamm, did you just say "Yamalube"? :)
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For me , there's never been any argument that car and motorcycle oils are, and need to be, different. I'm not so cynical that I disbelieve everything the oil companies say. I also wouldn't discount claims of improved fuel consumption and increased power output totally. But as Slaninar says, those benefits may be minimal. The oil companies make vast profits as we all know, but they also stand to lose a great deal if found to be making false claims.
Going by the specs what we are putting in our bikes is pretty basic oil, long ago considered obsolete in the car manufacturing world.
Oil companies are notorious for making false claims, not to mention many other nasty habits that many of em have. It's pretty much in their interest to confuse you anyway.
Did somebody say Turbo Charger?
Well it's becoming increasingly hard to buy a car that doesnae have one. As I said earlier have a look at the specs for the latest small capacity petrol engines that some of the big cars firms are now producing. They are pretty impressive engines!
Think also what a car has got to do. A bike engine has a far easier job at the end of the day. Look at the torque figures that many modern cars are now producing. And yes consider that there is a turbo in there along with far tighter emission standards and that car companies are chasing 24mnth 30,000 mile service intervals now.
But of course just becuase your average car oil is far more sophisticated than your average motorcycle oil does not mean it will be good for your bike.
And if you want to start another thread that will generate similar amounts of general bull, try something like - will I get more power and better mileage running my Fazer on 98RON fuel? (before you do the answer is no and no.)
At the end of the day, semi-synth is fine, check the spec in your bike manual, buy a tin of oil quoting that spec and to be on the safe side make sure it has a picture of a bike on the front of it.
I'd would suggest for new or low mileage bikes you avoid fully synthetic oil for a good while, as there is a small risk you polish the bores and end up with piston rings that won't scrub in. (some may say that this is another internet myth - I dunno)
Now if you are determined to beat the oil companies, and save a few bob, with a bit of research you may well come up with something better and cheaper.
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I'd would suggest for new or low mileage bikes you avoid fully synthetic oil for a good while, as there is a small risk you polish the bores and end up with piston rings that won't scrub in. (some may say that this is another internet myth - I dunno)
For the first 10.000 kilometers it is good to run the bike on semi-synth. Except for bikes that come with full synth from the factory (most new ones do).
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For the first 10.000 kilometers it is good to run the bike on semi-synth. Except for bikes that come with full synth from the factory (most new ones do).
I was of the understanding that most bikes come from the factory filed with a low spec mineral oil. It aids bedding in and hence the usual 600 mile oil and filter change.
The late Kevin Ash on running in - http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/running (http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/running)
Peter Brett in that article from Castrol oils;
Peter Brett says that they’ve discovered synthetic oils actually interfere with running in, for reasons which go beyond their low friction properties - there also seems to be a chemical process happening which hinders it. “Although you can treat an engine as fully run in after 500 miles, surface stabilisation continues for at least the first 5,000 miles of an engine’s life,” he says. “Synthetic oils actively prevent this from happening, and not simply by holding friction surfaces apart, although we still don’t know exactly why and how this happens. But there’s no doubt they inhibit the process itself. So the consequence of using a synthetic too early is your engine will never run in properly. I would even suggest waiting until 10,000 miles (16,000km) before using it in most engines subjected to normal use. Until then, you’re best to use an inexpensive but branded mineral oil.”
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I used to do PDIs on new bikes as a Saturday lad (early 80s), and a relatively small amount of low spec oil is all the bikes were delivered in the crates with. On a PDI, you'd drain that out and fill up with the proper oil. Don't know if it's all changed now tho.
Excellent article, fascinating. Thanks for the link VNA.
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As I was oot in the garage there, I thought I'd check the spec of the bike oil that I'm paying a pretty penny for.
In the bike at the mo is Fuchs Silkolene Super 4 (semi synth) 10/40 The API spec is SF and SG.
In the bike last year was Fuchs Silkolene Comp 4 (fully synth - dunno why, shop must have given me fully synth for the price of semi by accident) The API spec is SG,SH and SJ
In the car is Unipart Pro P100 10/40 (I get my bits for the car direct from the Unipart distributer - great prices!). The car is a 2002 VW Bora 2.0 It is not the recommended oil but it's done 70,000 miles so far on it. The spec is API SL/SJ/CF
If we look up the API web site;
Super 4. We can see that SF and SG are obsolete. SF for 1988 and older engines. SG for 1993 and older.
Comp4. SG and SH obsolete. The final spec that it meets is SJ. Hurrah! It meets a current spec, recommended for engines 2001 and older.
Unipart P100 - SL,SJ and CF SL - current for 2004 and older. SJ - current for 2001 and older. CF obsolete 1994 for all road in-direct injection diesel.
So there we have it. The Fuchs motorcycle oils are basic spec lubricants, certainly not the kind of stuff you'd want to put in a modern car.
The cheapest oil here - by a country mile, is the Unipart P100, is the highest spec and ideal for many modern cars.
Now whilst clearly the P100 is a more sophisticated high spec oil than the basic SF/SG muck that I'm currently putting in the bike, well the problem is again that, as we have seen above, putting too high a spec oil in your engine can cause problems. Then there is the issue of the pesky friction modifiers, how can we be sure they are not present?
I would suggest that the usual statement that motorcycle oil is higher quality oil than car oil, well it's another internet myth. The opposite is true.
And yes sadly, to get the cheap basic spec oil we need for our bikes, we have to pay through our nose.
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I guess if you're an oil producer, you'd be thinking, well, we sell millions more litres of car oil than bike oil, so we'll invest more in research and improvement for the former, and as long as the latter more or less keeps up with engine technology, well it's unprofitable to spend too much time and resources on it?
What are the world's top bike racing teams using? Is it what we buy?
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The other spec listed on the Fuchs oils JASO MA (MA2 I think)
Japanese Automotive Standards Organisation.
MA is your guarantee that the oil is suitable for wet clutch use.
My conclusion. Probably as confused as you are.
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Sorry VNA, crossed your last post - added something to mine.
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I guess if you're an oil producer, you'd be thinking, well, we sell millions more litres of car oil than bike oil, so we'll invest more in research and improvement for the former, and as long as the latter more or less keeps up with engine technology, well it's unprofitable to spend too much time and resources on it?
They make the oil that the automotive manufacturers demand. They in turn have been driven by emission standards. So it's driven by standards.
It doesn't look as if the oil you put in your bike has changed much since the late 80's. In the car world it's changed considerably.
We may yet see advances in motorcycle oil as emission standards are tightened up again. Just the same as for cars, if the manufacturer demands a high spec oil, the oil producer will come up with the goods and it'll go in your bike. If not we'll continue with basic oil that hasn't changed much since 1988.
There is also the 'not been tested to the latest standards' thing that is quoted on the web. Another internet myth I suggest. If Yamaha asks for an obsolete API oil, that is exactly what the oil company will deliver. No more no less.
Whatever you do, do not put bike oil in your car!
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Ive got a bloody headache now!!!!! :\
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Serves you right - look what you bloody started! :lol
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The way I see it, it's a bit like tyres.
Handbook for my '98 600 says use radial tyres of correct size,
now this doesn't stop me using the best tyres I can get as things have developed and improved in
the 15 years since my bike was made.
For oil it says use motor oil of a certain spec. Now if i meet this spec, great, if I surpass this with a super
oil of the 21st century then also great.
So meet the minimum and everything else is up to you.
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For oil it says use motor oil of a certain spec. Now if i meet this spec, great, if I surpass this with a super
oil of the 21st century then also great.
OK, here we go again.
Yamaha quotes obsolete API specs as recommended oil. These are specs that date back to the 1980's and 90's.
As far as I know all the genuine motorcycle oil on sale in the UK is manufactured to obsolete API automotive standards.
Feel free to fill your bike with the latest super high tech API SM, but you might not feel so great once you find your clutch is wrecked and you need to get your bores honed and new rings fitted.
I mean you could fill your tank with a higher spec fuel such as methanol, but you know, I don't think it will get you far.
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About 10 years ago I was doing some building work for someone who supplied oil to the F1 racing teams, what he told me was that the oil they used was different than what you buy, and cost much more something like 5 times as much, don't know if this is the same in bike racing, anyway on a ride out of say 150 miles how much of that is your engine revving at over 12,000 rpm, not that much or if it is I want to know that ride 8)
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Andy, thats my poorly made point. Minimum spec is fine.
I'm trying to say minimum is good, above that for pretty bike pictures or semi synth
or fully synth is just choice and cost.
I'm a Wilkos 10-40 guy and at 73K miles the bikes fine.
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Feel free to fill your bike with the latest super high tech API SM, but you might not feel so great once you find your clutch is wrecked and you need to get your bores honed and new rings fitted.
I go higher: API SL. No problems with clutch, or engine. It is BETTER, not worse, you know?
About 10 years ago I was doing some building work for someone who supplied oil to the F1 racing teams, what he told me was that the oil they used was different than what you buy, and cost much more something like 5 times as much, don't know if this is the same in bike racing, anyway on a ride out of say 150 miles how much of that is your engine revving at over 12,000 rpm, not that much or if it is I want to know that ride 8)
Racing oils have less corrosion inhibitors - they are made for heavy use (hot, high revs), but with more frequent changes.
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I go higher: API SL. No problems with clutch, or engine. It is BETTER, not worse, you know?
Eh? What oil are you using?
VNA goes off and googles some more..........................
This is even more confusing than I first thought.
Here an interesting article I found on the web. It's just a random article on the web, so take it with a pinch of salt, but the fella does seem to have been doing his homework....... http://www.post610.org/truth_about_motorcycle_oils.htm (http://www.post610.org/truth_about_motorcycle_oils.htm)
What is important to note is this: Just as 10W-40 and 20W-50 weight oils are exempt from the
zinc/phosphorus limits put in place by API SJ specifications, these same grade oils are exempt from the
fuel efficiency mandates that the SJ rating requires. Thus, it is not necessary for motor oil
manufacturers to add friction modifiers to their 40 and 50 weight motor oils.
Therefore, it cannot be assumed that just because an oil meets API SJ specs it must contain friction
modifiers. It doesn't have to. Some automotive 10W-40 and 20W-50 motor oils may contain no friction
modifiers whatsoever. This could only be determined by speaking with the manufacturer themselves.
Unfortunately, if that manufacturer also carries a motorcycle specific brand of oil, it is likely that they
would point you that direction and avoid answering the question. This is because their motorcycle
specific oil generally costs more and makes them a better profit.
More googling, cos Slaninar and the above has me wondering if API SL is available with a picture of a motorcycle on the tin. Of course if it's API SL car oil 10/40 it might be exempt from all those nasty additives as our man above claims is possible, but being sure is a nightmare.
So what about this - it meets the old SG spec - which I think is what the owners manual asks for - it's marked as JASO MA and has a picture of a motorcycle on the front - so your clutch and gear box will be fine - but is also rated API SL - so has been tested to a current standard unlike the Silkolene stuff I'm currently using. The price is a fiver more, but considering all we can go on is specs, this looks way ahead of Silolene. MOTUL 5100 4T 10w40 33 quid 50p
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-915-motul-5100-4t-10w-40-high-performance-lubricant-for-bikes-technosynthese-ester.aspx (http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-915-motul-5100-4t-10w-40-high-performance-lubricant-for-bikes-technosynthese-ester.aspx)
If you want fully synthetic; 43 quid.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-912-motul-7100-4t-10w-40-high-performance-lubricant-for-bikes-100-synthetic-ester.aspx (http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-912-motul-7100-4t-10w-40-high-performance-lubricant-for-bikes-100-synthetic-ester.aspx)
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Agree with most said in the article you linked.
The oil I've been using and have been happy with is the 7100 Motul 10w40. Like this one:
http://www.motul.com/rs/en/products/39 (http://www.motul.com/rs/en/products/39)
It costs around 40-45 euros per 4 litre bottle. I guess it's not really MUCH better than Silkolene full synth bike oils, just Silkolene haven't bothered to test their oils to higher standards (it costs). If I didn't get discount for Motul, I'd go for Silkolene, Bel Ray, or any other decent full synth oil.