Post by: carrier on 01 April 2013, 05:13:01 pm
Long time lurker first time poster.
A little while ago jackasses tried to hotwire my bike without removing the chain so after failing they knocked it over. A guy fixed it for me but since then its always been hard to start. A whole lot of running the starter, throttle, turn off the bike, turn back on, repeat until after three or four goes it will come to life, sometimes with white smoke other times with a backfire. So what's going on? Just went for a ride turned it off and couldn't get it to start a second after turning it off.
Other threads talk about a breather hose but 02s don't have them.
I took a look at the spark plugs and they look fine though they seemed a little oily or was it fuely?
Thanks for the help
Edit so I bought a 1994 ducati monster and decided to see what would happen if I just boosted it... started right away. So that means its the battery that knsckered or the alternator isn't doing its job because it doesn't run indefinitely after a while the revs die. So going to get another battery and see if that solves it!
Edit 2: its not battery... maybe it was part of the problem but not the full problem... so what am I missing
So far I have
Changed the battery
Changed the spark plugs
Changed the Cdi
Changed the starter cut off relay
Checked the fuel tap
Check the hit coils
Checked the pick up coils
Checked the alternator {visibly fine but the resistance is a little high 0.6 ohm for every wire.)
Am I missing anything?
The bike now sparks "weakly" and if I hold the starter it rumbles but still cant get it to idle... is it not getting the compression needed? I went back to my original cdi.
Post by: Lawrence on 01 April 2013, 06:35:20 pm
Sounds to me like the ignition barrel is damaged. If they've cocked about with it, it might be that not all the contacts connect so you get power to most stuff but no sparks. I had similar when the connections inside were dirty, it might be worth starting with contact cleaner down the barrel and turn the key on/off a few times.
Post by: carrier on 01 April 2013, 07:09:07 pm
Edit, just to add it doesn't try to start it just turns over
Post by: limax2 on 01 April 2013, 07:25:00 pm
Post by: carrier on 02 April 2013, 03:50:57 pm
Post by: darrsi on 02 April 2013, 04:15:43 pm
As I wait for my contact cleaner and wire brush I've noticed that my battery is at 12 volts and when I try to start it it goes to 9-10 volts...think I need a new battery?
As soon as you said it starts better with the lights off i immediately thought iffy battery!
I'd charge it off the bike first if possible, then measure the voltage before starting then after starting and make sure the bike is charging it okay.
Post by: His Dudeness on 02 April 2013, 04:59:27 pm
Post by: carrier on 03 April 2013, 08:29:27 am
Is it better to measure if its charging using ohms?
Post by: darrsi on 03 April 2013, 08:44:10 am
Isn't it not sparking because the amperage/voltage is too low? How would a push start help? Just because the starter motor wouldn't have to turn?
Is it better to measure if its charging using ohms?
It will bump start with a flat battery, and quite easily too with these bikes.
I'd guess a good battery with no load should read at least around the 12.8 volts mark, and when charging with engine running will go above 14 volts.
Cold weather, age and sitting idle without a regular charge can all affect battery life span.
Post by: Fazerider on 03 April 2013, 09:26:57 am
I'd be more suspicious of the mixture. Are you applying choke before trying to start? My Fazer starts readily without choke in warm weather... in cold conditions it needs it, but it has to be applied first. Weirdly, if it doesn't fire up without and then I apply choke, it just floods.
So, if you've not been doing that, give it a try. If you have been, make sure your choke cable is working i.e. pulling the little bar at the top of the carbs that actuates the four choke plungers.
Post by: carrier on 03 April 2013, 09:34:45 am
That sort of voltage drop while thumbing the starter is to be expected. I don't think that, or the fact that you are having to run the starter for a long time before the engine fires, indicates a duff battery. Quite the opposite in fact.
I'd be more suspicious of the mixture. Are you applying choke before trying to start? My Fazer starts readily without choke in warm weather... in cold conditions it needs it, but it has to be applied first. Weirdly, if it doesn't fire up without and then I apply choke, it just floods.
So, if you've not been doing that, give it a try. If you have been, make sure your choke cable is working i.e. pulling the little bar at the top of the carbs that actuates the four choke plungers.
Hmmm, I'll try bump starting it but I doubt it will work
I've only tried the choke after it hasn't worked, I'll try starting it with the choke on right away. If I try starting it and then put the choke on it doesn't help, I have to take the choke off, keeping trying then it will start.
Would that make my mixture too rich? If it is that should I be turning it down using the idle screw?
Post by: packie on 03 April 2013, 09:40:56 am
Also, your story indicates that the bike was starting grand (even with a dodgy battery) prior to when she was tipped over. You indicate that you got somebody to fix your bike straigthaway, so if the bike was mechanically sound after being fixed by that guy after the tip over, then the battery and bike should have started away like as it was prior to the tip over IMO.
Even though you might have a dodgy battery, I also would be looking at things that could have been dislodged after the bike slammed onto its side which now maybe has hindered your fuel supply. I would look at your Fuel Filter to see if any of the crud that was in it got knocked about and settled in a way that is obstructing the flow inside the filter to some degree.
Also it just maybe possible that if there was sedemant in the bottom of the tank or in the carbs bowls, that could have been knocked about and worked its way onto your pilot jets and blocked them. I'd drain the float bowls to see what the state of affairs is there and if the fuel is clean or dirty.
Also another area to consider is this guy who did the work and what he actually did. You said a guy fixed it for you. Who is this guy??....was he a qualified mechanic???....has he worked on Fazers before???.....you never said what he actually fixed that was broken??....could he have tampered with somethng by accident???....could what he fixed....isn't fixed at all or have made thngs worse??? Did it go down on the TPS side (exhaust) and that the TPS got moved or damaged?? There is so much lack of info here that you need to come back to us with.
Post by: carrier on 03 April 2013, 11:56:42 am
I shall start from the beggining
Some douche tried to hot wire my bike by cutting all the wires coming out of the ignition and then wrapping them all together, which quickly fried a few fuses, he/she also yanked a wire out of the connector while doing that. Then it was tipped over.
I got a mobile mechanic to solder everything together. So just lifted the tank, reconnected the connector and soldered everything. I had replaced the fuses prior. Since that point on the bike was abit harder to start. I thought it might have been a bad solder job but I hot wired it properly and still it would not start.
Also if I push it really hard and leave it over redline too long it shuts off, still have power but engine won't turn, the starter will turn it but won't start.
It fell on the exhaust side. As time has gone on it has gotten worse... harder to start.. or it might just be this colder weather. Drove it from Bristol to London no problems... before I knew about the redline issue.
I was also worried it was a fuel issue so that what I'm going to take a look at next.
Thank you all kindly for helping, hopefully will get to the bottom of it.
From your story, I would think that maybe you will find that you may have more problems than just your battery and too much focus is put on there by Darrsi and His Dudness. But plonk a new one in anyway, as you need one if it's not charging properly to spec. But she is spinning enough by the sounds of it to start.
Also, your story indicates that the bike was starting grand (even with a dodgy battery) prior to when she was tipped over. You indicate that you got somebody to fix your bike straigthaway, so if the bike was mechanically sound after being fixed by that guy after the tip over, then the battery and bike should have started away like as it was prior to the tip over IMO.
Even though you might have a dodgy battery, I also would be looking at things that could have been dislodged after the bike slammed onto its side which now maybe has hindered your fuel supply. I would look at your Fuel Filter to see if any of the crud that was in it got knocked about and settled in a way that is obstructing the flow inside the filter to some degree.
Also it just maybe possible that if there was sedemant in the bottom of the tank or in the carbs bowls, that could have been knocked about and worked its way onto your pilot jets and blocked them. I'd drain the float bowls to see what the state of affairs is there and if the fuel is clean or dirty.
Also another area to consider is this guy who did the work and what he actually did. You said a guy fixed it for you. Who is this guy??....was he a qualified mechanic???....has he worked on Fazers before???.....you never said what he actually fixed that was broken??....could he have tampered with somethng by accident???....could what he fixed....isn't fixed at all or have made thngs worse??? Did it go down on the TPS side (exhaust) and that the TPS got moved or damaged?? There is so much lack of info here that you need to come back to us with.
Post by: darrsi on 03 April 2013, 12:24:12 pm
That sort of voltage drop while thumbing the starter is to be expected. I don't think that, or the fact that you are having to run the starter for a long time before the engine fires, indicates a duff battery. Quite the opposite in fact.
I'd be more suspicious of the mixture. Are you applying choke before trying to start? My Fazer starts readily without choke in warm weather... in cold conditions it needs it, but it has to be applied first. Weirdly, if it doesn't fire up without and then I apply choke, it just floods.
So, if you've not been doing that, give it a try. If you have been, make sure your choke cable is working i.e. pulling the little bar at the top of the carbs that actuates the four choke plungers.
He's touching 9 volts and you don't think there's a battery issue at all ??? :lol
Post by: packie on 03 April 2013, 04:17:44 pm
That sort of voltage drop while thumbing the starter is to be expected. I don't think that, or the fact that you are having to run the starter for a long time before the engine fires, indicates a duff battery. Quite the opposite in fact.
I'd be more suspicious of the mixture. Are you applying choke before trying to start? My Fazer starts readily without choke in warm weather... in cold conditions it needs it, but it has to be applied first. Weirdly, if it doesn't fire up without and then I apply choke, it just floods.
So, if you've not been doing that, give it a try. If you have been, make sure your choke cable is working i.e. pulling the little bar at the top of the carbs that actuates the four choke plungers.
He's touching 9 volts and you don't think there's a battery issue at all ??? :lol
Well I can see were both Fazerider and yourself are coming from.
You maybe right in saying that there is a battery problem with only 9 volts....but that might not be 100% given until further tests. He had severed wires, blown fuses and a lot of screwing about done to those electrics. What if in some way that all this skullduggery has in turn damaged the rectifier/regulator?? That would change the game then. The battery could be perfect still, but just not receiving a charge and just dipping down to 9 volts trying to run the fuel pump, dash lights, fuel gauge, digital clocks, TPS, ect ect when he took his reading when the bike was running.
What myself and Fazerider are saying too, is that if the battery is goosed, then he obviously had 9 volts before the incident to begin with, and it was enough to crank the engine and keep the bike going with lights all along. He had no starting incidents prior to the attempted theft.
And even after the incident, he also said that the battery is spinning the motor mad, which suggests that there is still plenty of jizz in the battery to at least crank the engine. That leads to believe that he has other issues than just a battery....if it is a battery at all.
Post by: darrsi on 03 April 2013, 04:49:57 pm
Post by: AdieR on 03 April 2013, 06:56:24 pm
Are all your fluid levels right?
You say the tank was lifted - you haven't got a trapped / kinked pipe where it was put back down?
There was mention of dirty spark plugs - have you replaced them?
Is your tip-over switch functional and it's wiring ok?
My FZ has been on it's side twice (knocked over by a van, and 6 months later a car), and mine never had any starting issues either time.
It may be that you've had a fault-in-waiting, and the tip-over has pushed it over the edge (no pun intended).
Post by: carrier on 03 April 2013, 10:06:35 pm
The starter engine doesn't take that much power however the sparkplugs take a massive amount and if it isn't 100% they won't work, so I'm betting battery, but I also think there's another culprit, but I think its a fuel problem. I don't think its running lean, but maybe there is crap in the filter and when there's a nice steady draw from the engine it let's in enough but if there's too much of dies or not enough a vacuum occurs. Those are my two guesses...
The 02 models doesnt have breather pipes to kink.
Post by: carrier on 03 April 2013, 10:13:10 pm
That sort of voltage drop while thumbing the starter is to be expected. I don't think that, or the fact that you are having to run the starter for a long time before the engine fires, indicates a duff battery. Quite the opposite in fact.
I'd be more suspicious of the mixture. Are you applying choke before trying to start? My Fazer starts readily without choke in warm weather... in cold conditions it needs it, but it has to be applied first. Weirdly, if it doesn't fire up without and then I apply choke, it just floods.
So, if you've not been doing that, give it a try. If you have been, make sure your choke cable is working i.e. pulling the little bar at the top of the carbs that actuates the four choke plungers.
Quickly tried just choke and start and nothing. If in try a bump start should I choke it while bumping?
Post by: darrsi on 03 April 2013, 10:17:29 pm
Post by: darrsi on 03 April 2013, 10:19:13 pm
Post by: AdieR on 03 April 2013, 11:10:29 pm
Thumbing that starter button draws a significant current from the battery (far more than people realise usually), which is then recharged when the bike is running (but requires a long enough run to recharge the power drawn), and battery voltage will drop while that button is pressed.
The spark plugs use a high voltage to jump the gap between electrodes, and not necessarily a high current. If spark-plugs took a massive power draw, you'd need one hell of a big battery / alternator to cope (bearing in mind that the starter runs for a few seconds, and your spark plugs are running all the time).
The '02 bikes may not have a breather to kink, but it'll still have a fuel feed line from the tank which may (or may not) be trapped / kinked.
I'm assuming it runs ok once started? Is it modified at all?
Post by: Lawrence on 04 April 2013, 12:35:46 am
"The starter engine doesn't take that much power however the sparkplugs take a massive amount and if it isn't 100% they won't work" - not quite.Which is why you can't run the starter for too long before the battery starts to die.
Thumbing that starter button draws a significant current from the battery (far more than people realise usually), which is then recharged when the bike is running (but requires a long enough run to recharge the power drawn), and battery voltage will drop while that button is pressed.
The fact that it cranks and cranks and then just starts up still makes me think it's electrical. If it were fuel it wouldn't backfire or smoke, plus it should at least try to fire from the fuel that's left in the carbs.
Next time it fails to start try flicking the killswitch/key on/off a few times and try starting again.
Post by: Fazerider on 04 April 2013, 09:58:20 am
The starter engine doesn't take that much power however the sparkplugs take a massive amount...Yes, you've got that the wrong way round. The CDI will only take an amp or so, the starter motor is rated at 700W and will typically draw 70A allowing for voltage drop.
If you suspect weak sparks as the cause of your starting problems it's easy enough to pull a plug cap off and either stick a spare plug or screwdriver in the cap and let the spark jump to an engine fin (not the cam cover... that's insulated). It should manage 5 to 7mm. Don't try to make it jump further than that, the spark is what limits the voltage... too large a gap can cause coil insulation breakdown.
Post by: darrsi on 04 April 2013, 10:11:59 am
It has been switched back on fully hasn't it?
Although i s'pose the fuel pump would try and compensate and tick like crazy? :rolleyes
Post by: carrier on 04 April 2013, 04:12:05 pm
Darrsi - Yeah I thought of that... but it was on, I turned it off and on for good measure.
Post by: Fazerider on 04 April 2013, 05:10:56 pm
It's more likely that the first thing you'd notice is the starter relay clacking on and off because the battery voltage sinks so low when it sees the starter motor that it can no longer hold the relay closed then, once the relay's open, the voltage rises back high enough to activate it.
Post by: carrier on 04 April 2013, 05:25:27 pm
Post by: Dead Eye on 04 April 2013, 05:34:58 pm
Post by: Ebme Geek on 04 April 2013, 05:42:02 pm
I think it's got lost somewhere, check the easiest first, are there sparks while it wont run, either take a plug out, or use a spare one, has not got to be the right type, put it in the cap and hold it against the top fin on the side of the cylinder (not the cam cover, it's rubber mounted).
You will know where better to look then
Post by: carrier on 04 April 2013, 08:52:36 pm
The plot so far. The fuel tap is definitely letting fuel in, the battery is...battering, the spark plugs..might not be sparking. Though I didn't place it near any ground. I thought I would see it spark without that...no?
Once again thanks for all the help.
Edit...just realised I didn't ground the sparkplug correctly, will do again tomorrow
Post by: Orangegrump on 04 April 2013, 09:38:47 pm
Post by: clayt74 on 05 April 2013, 01:48:23 pm
Now then just to throw another thought into the mix, i would check and probably replace your starter circuit cut off relay (not the starter relay)
that relay contains several diodes that could eaisly have been blown when your bike got fried!!! and one of those diodes being faulty could stop the ignitor unit from operating correctly but still allowing the starter motor to operate.
only my thoughts but good luck
Post by: carrier on 06 April 2013, 07:15:03 pm
The fuel tap is fuelling
The high tension coil is coiling
The pickup coil is picking up
The spark plugs are still not sparking
The ignition main switch is switching
I'm going to blame the ignition control unit so I ordered another one and will soon see. Any body else have any suggestions?
The ignition coil is the same as the hit coils right?
Clayt74 not sure where this starter circuit cutoff relay is...where is it?
Post by: carrier on 08 April 2013, 11:03:43 am
according to the wiring diagram there isn't a green wire at all
Post by: clayt74 on 08 April 2013, 12:05:05 pm
as for the green wire on the ignition unit, mine is connected, but as you say im not sure where it connects too?
ignition unit |
Post by: clayt74 on 08 April 2013, 12:14:27 pm
doesnt seem to be related to your problem, but i think should definately be connected.
good luck mate
Post by: carrier on 08 April 2013, 12:32:13 pm
on the wiring schematic its the wire shown as light green LG which from what i can see enables the starter motor as long as its in neutral or the side stand is up.
doesnt seem to be related to your problem, but i think should definately be connected.
good luck mate
Thanks!
But the starter circuit...doesn't that take care of the starter motor, which is working fine, or does it affect spark aswell? But hey I might just switch it out anyway. Thanks again
Post by: clayt74 on 08 April 2013, 05:10:56 pm
Good luck
Post by: carrier on 10 April 2013, 08:36:00 pm
Next the starter cut off relay
I took a pic of my CSI and doesn't look the same as clayts
Post by: carrier on 13 April 2013, 03:47:43 pm
Changed the battery
Changed the spark plugs
Changed the Cdi
Changed the starter cut off relay
Checked the fuel tap
Check the hit coils
Checked the pick up coils
Checked the alternator {visibly fine but the resistance is a little high 0.6 ohm for every wire.)
Am I missing anything?
The bike now sparks "weakly" and if I hold the starter it rumbles but still cant get it to idle... is it not getting the compression needed? I went back to my original cdi.
Post by: Ruby Racing on 13 April 2013, 04:42:30 pm
Post by: carrier on 14 April 2013, 07:42:37 am
It was the battery in the end.
Thanks everyone
Post by: darrsi on 14 April 2013, 11:46:05 am
Crikey, you know how to confuse an issue, was it the battery or no fuel?
Post by: carrier on 14 April 2013, 01:06:51 pm
Post by: darrsi on 14 April 2013, 01:31:41 pm
Post by: Ruby Racing on 14 April 2013, 05:31:12 pm
This is often the problem with fuel injected bikes as there's so much that needs power if the battery doesn't have enough juice they will often refuse to try to fire up. I have a Triumph Daytona 675 and have had "issues" with the battery. Sometimes they even show enough volts but still wont work. Usually means the battery is goosed and time for a new one.
Post by: carrier on 14 April 2013, 08:28:58 pm
Glad you solved it.
This is often the problem with fuel injected bikes as there's so much that needs power if the battery doesn't have enough juice they will often refuse to try to fire up. I have a Triumph Daytona 675 and have had "issues" with the battery. Sometimes they even show enough volts but still wont work. Usually means the battery is goosed and time for a new one.
Its a carb bike :rolleyes...
Post by: Ruby Racing on 14 April 2013, 08:52:15 pm
Glad you solved it.
This is often the problem with fuel injected bikes as there's so much that needs power if the battery doesn't have enough juice they will often refuse to try to fire up. I have a Triumph Daytona 675 and have had "issues" with the battery. Sometimes they even show enough volts but still wont work. Usually means the battery is goosed and time for a new one.
Its a carb bike :rolleyes ...
Yeah I know! (Done in a Little Britain voice). I have one myself after all.
I should have said something like "it's usually fuel injected bikes that have this problem." But I didn't. Ne'er mind eh. :nana
Post by: reillypadraig on 15 April 2013, 01:52:43 am
Post by: Ruby Racing on 15 April 2013, 03:47:34 pm
Glad she is fixed and working after all that, if it happens again check the reg/rectifier? If its not giving the battery the right charge it will bollox the battery eventually that's where the last battery was dying and at the bike on idle it's running on the battery, not enough charge from the generator until about 2,500-3000 rev to re-charge, I'm open to be corrected on this but worth a look after you spent so much on replacing everything else
I agree, check the R/R in case it's goosed and takes out your new battery.
Post by: carrier on 15 April 2013, 06:26:11 pm
Glad she is fixed and working after all that, if it happens again check the reg/rectifier? If its not giving the battery the right charge it will bollox the battery eventually that's where the last battery was dying and at the bike on idle it's running on the battery, not enough charge from the generator until about 2,500-3000 rev to re-charge, I'm open to be corrected on this but worth a look after you spent so much on replacing everything else
I agree, check the R/R in case it's goosed and takes out your new battery.
It was probably the shorting out every single wire when they tried to hot wire it, that killed the battery. Even above 3000 it would die.... didn't matter where the rpm was it would die.