old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Dead Eye on 07 October 2012, 04:07:44 pm
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Hi all, went to go out for a spin today (nice Sunday afternoons are rare) and as I started the bike there is a rather loud ticking coming from the engine. Now my first thought was maybe the cam-chain tensioner, but I would have expected this to come on gradually, not to all of a sudden appear. After that I suspected something lose in the front sprocket area so removed the cover to find everything fine. After that I figured I would ask you guys before doing any potential damage :( It sounded as if it got a bit better when it warmed a little, but not significantly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo6yBHLHmlU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo6yBHLHmlU)
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Sounds like a cam-chain rattle to me.
Does it sound better when the engine is warmer.
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sounds like cam chain to me too but can't be certain with just a video. sounds like it might not be running on four cylinders as well. its a bit chuggy if you know what i mean. are all the exhaust heating up at the same rate?
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It definitely sounds a bit worse than usual if disregarding the rattle. Does the cam chain remainder really degrade that fast? I understand that it should go away instantly when the chain finally tightens a bitch, but the wear should be gradual. As i mentioned before, there has been no sign of this noise at all until i started the bike today and its only been sat for a few days. I guess I'll have to take it for a ride and see what happens. I will check the pipes as well (whilst being careful ;))
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if the tensioner failed you might get a sudden increase in noise. thats only a guess though. but i think you should be very careful running that bike it sounds quite bad to me. i'd say get it to a mechanic
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in almost 90.000 miles with my 02 fazer 600 the only inconvenient I had was something like that; but once opened the problem wasnt an over-used cam chain but just a stuck spring on the tensioner.
I doubt I will ever have a bike as reliable, not even my fzs 1000
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now I watched the video: sounds pretty wrong....... hope is nothing too serious. good luck!
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Yeah it sounds upset :(
I took it out today, more out of necessity than choice. The noise does calm down and appears to go away one its warmed up. However, it was back instantly when I restarted it 5 minutes after parking up at my local B&Q. I checked out the downpipes and two of the cylinders (the two on the right hand side if sat on the bike) were a lot slower to warm up than the others. I also noticed something odd when I got home - when I pull the brake lever, the brake lights come on (obviously) and my headlights noticeable dip a fair bit. I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to happen...
Thanks for everyone's thoughts - the tensioner seems to be the likely suspect at the moment, the bikes on about 24,500 miles at the moment for what its worth. Going to have to sort it out next week now as I'm moving to Essex this week so nowhere near enough time.
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sounds like you need to balance carbs, check spark on 2 cold cylinders and try resetting cam chain tensioner. It can come on suddenly, at least it did on mine, and then disappear just as fast. Apart from ticking it sounds like a very rough idle, does it pickup easy and smooth when you rev it or does it bog down at all?
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I'm pretty certain it needs the carbs balanced, I've been trying to convince my bank account that I can afford the necessary tool (I prefer to do the work myself). It picks up fine and revs freely once its warmed a little, it never starts on just the button though, I always have to give it some revs when starting even if I use the choke.
How do I attempt to reset the tensioner? I tried doing a little bit of Google search but came up empty
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read the manual or posts on here to reset tensioner or do as i was told go for a fast blast(at legal speeds of course!) and it might get the tensioner into the next click!worked for mine as went back to normal noise ,as for ballance carbs its deffo worth doing,has a mate or member close to you got a set of gauges they can loan/help you with?saves buying your own and much cheaper getting a mate a beer or two for the help,hope your move goes well
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The only info i've found is regarding the whole put it in gear and push the bike backwards trick. I'll give it a go and if not see if a bit of a blast helps it.
As for carbs, anyone in the Chelmsford area fancy letting me borrow some gauges? :P I have no friends who own bikes or even own any tools for that matter come to think of it... Maybe after my move I might be pleasantly surprised that it didn't cost me anything - hears to hopes and dreams ;)
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you have to move the carbs out of the way to get at the tensioner so its a bit of a faf. take out the battery, loosen the air intake screws, move the air box back, loosen the carb intake screws, pop the carbs out. next you want to set cylinder one to tdc so take out the spark plug, take off the generator cover, rotate till you're on tdc on cylinder one. then take out the big centre nut on the tensioner to release the tension. then take out the two allen head bolts. the tensioner will stay in the same position so you can check how far advanced it is. count how many notches you've got left on it and check for any irregular wear or damage. if it all looks ok then reset the tensioner and put it back in the bike. you should hear a click, click, click as you're tightening the centre bolt on the tesnioner. reassemble all of the rest of it in the reverse order and cross your fingers.
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And watch out for the ball bearing which is pushed down by the centre bolt.
When you take off the tensioner via the 2 hex bolts, keep it level as you withdraw from the engine area. Don't do what i did and point the tensioner downwards as you will be searching the garage for a small ball bearing! ;)
Mark.
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Just a quick update - I removed all the plugs this morning and attempted to reset the tensioner and then went for a blast along the A4174 (Bristol ring road). Let the bike cool down once I got home and restarted it and nothing has changed. The ticking is still present and cylinders 3 and 4 are still warming up significantly slower - do the coils control 1+2 and 3+4 or 1+4 and 2+3? Just something I randomly thought of. In any case, before I put all the plugs back I checked plugs 3 and 4 and they are both sparking fine so potentially a fuel issue with the carbs?
I think I'm going to suck it up and buy a Morgan Carbtune since it pays for itself on the first use. Then, next week when I finally have a garage to work in, I'll dismantle everything and check the tensioner and balance the carbs. Out of interest, what can happen if the carbs become significantly unbalanced? Is it simple poor performance and power distribution?
One final note, does anybody have any specific ideas regarding the light issue I'm having? i.e. when the brake lights come on, the headlights (and dash lights) dim significantly. I'm tempted to suggest a generator / battery issue due to the other problems I'm having but could it also be a crossed wire or something somewhere? The rear brake light switch was sticking last month but this was sorted during its MOT
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if you have to take the tensioner out then you might as well give your carbs a clean while they're out if they haven't been done in a while and then balance them. the coils fire 1+4 2+3. the lights problem is most likely a dodgy earth
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I had my carbs balanced a couple of weeks ago, before that the most noticeable problem was rough/ropey running at low revs, in my case between 2-3000rpm in any gear, and i noticed a lot of popping on decelleration. Above 3000rpm was absolutely fine.
After balancing, sweet as a nut! :)
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Well my 98 Frazer has rattled on tick over for more than a year and that's after a can tensioner was replaced. Strangely yesterday I started it from cold and the year old rattle has gone and it sounds like a brand new engine? Very weird.
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@wheats40, Depends how you ride it, it may have just needed an extra click but i s'pose if you were to take things very easily it could refrain from doing so, that's why people say go out and thrash it to click it to the next setting.
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Mine has never really liked it below 2.5k ish and I've known its a carb balance issue, I have no real excuse for that.
I'm guessing its going to be a case of getting to the tensioner, giving the carbs a clean and balance and tracing the electricals - I have no problem with doing the jobs apart from the electricals. Like most it seems, I hate having to deal with vehicle electrics :(
Thanks for all the advice, will keep you guys updated :)
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at a guess i'd say if the problem that you're having effects ever light then the fault must be with a wire that is common to all of them. so look at the wiring diagram in the workshop manual and see what wire is common to all of the lights and where it starts and ends. then you can check the connectors for that wire. you'd be looking for a melted or burnt connector or wire causing higher resistance
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Well after a fairly busy week I finally got round to doing some work on the bike and managed to get the carbs off. The worst part seems to be the throttle cables, which I'm dreading trying to get back on.
As they're off, is there anything I should check? Obviously I'm trying to get to the tensioner at the moment and figured I'd have a go at checking the Valve clearances. I plan on cleaning the carbs but I have no idea what I'm doing ;) I have heard mention of people sending theres off for an ultrasonic bath etc but is there a home solution that is advisable? If the cost for the ultrasonic bath isn't ridiculous then it might be something I'd consider (Google searching shall commence...)
I also decided to bite the bullet and bought myself a Morgan Carbtune, so at least I can finally balance them when everything gets reassembled.
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Hi,
Not specific to the Fazer, but some great vids I found showing how to clean and balance carbs here:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0557182BD945AE00&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0557182BD945AE00&feature=plcp)
Also if you checkout the channel there's some others showing how to check battery and other electricals for faults.
Hope this helps, Andy
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i've found it easier to put the cables back on with the carbs still off and then pop the whole lot back in.
the hardest thing to do when you're cleaning the carbs is getting the crusty screws out of the bowl and the diaphragm cover without damaging them. if they're stuck badly i use a rachet with a screwdriver attachment and the right sized bit. it might sound a bit weird but i put the carbs on the ground and hold them between my legs, then put all of my weight on to the back of the rachet and slowly turn it at the same time. they've cracked free for me every time using that method. you get a lot more torque with a rachet than just a screwdriver. or if you've got an impact wrench it would do the job. a good spray of penetrating fluid also helps
once you've got the covers off its just a case of being careful when removing the jets. they're brass so they are quite soft. you have to have the correct size screwdrivers or you will damage them.
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carb cleaner is also you friend with carbs,give good clean outside(cover holes etc 1st)before you strip/remove parts and wear gloves as it stings like a foccer in cuts etc!
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Picked up some bits to clean the carbs today and have been disassembling them. Unfortunately I can't undo the screws for three of the diaphrams :'( I was hoping to clean the carb bodies as I had noticed one or two little bits of grit (though these could have been my fault when I took the carbs off).
Obviously I can't use carb cleaner near the diaphrams as they will be destroyed but I did come across this home made ultrasonic bath (read down) - in this they used Tesco's Cola, would this be too harsh on the diaphrams? I've got all the parts for the bath so its definitely something I intend to try on the other bits and if it works well I'll feedback :)
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an impact driver will get the screws out and they're not too expensive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_driver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_driver)
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Ah yeah, thats probably a good idea - another tool to add to my collection... my poor bank account...
Also just another quick note - the default position for the mixture screws is 2 to 2 1/2 turns out on ALL the carbs right? Mine were all over the place and ranged from 1.5 turns to 3.5 turns :S
The tensioner seems to be fine, I counted 7 clicks which should leave 4 or 5 left for chain wear and leaves me on course for about 30-35k before I need to replace the cam chain. Just need to finish cleaning the carbs, balance them and reassemble everything...
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sounds good. keep at it ;) think its two turns out on the 600
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Yup 2 turns out is the standard setting.
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So everything has gone horribly horribly wrong :( I was cleaning the carb bodies yesterday ready for reassembly and then this happened
(http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154222_resized_1.jpg)
(http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154414_resized_1.jpg)
(http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154424_resized_1.jpg)
(http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154448_resized_1.jpg)
My poor 600 is gone :'( :'( :'( :'(
Not likely to be getting another one any time soon - the excess on my insurance policy is half of what the bike is insured for, plus there is the no claims discount that will disappear and cost me more money in the future - long story short is that even if I did claim I wouldn't be able to afford to buy another.
Oh and I'm not certain what started the fire, but the leading guess is that it was the home made ultrasonic bath - so DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME
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Bloody tragic.. Hope you wasnt in there when it went up..
Budgie
sent from somewhere beyond the rim.
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OH NO !!! :eek :eek :eek
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Thankfully no one was injured and the house was fine, garage has been totalled though as you can see.
All of my tools are basically ruined (and not covered by contents insurance...), plus all the booze in the fridge and all of my housemates underwear (which was in the dryer)
The truely lucky part was that the fuel tank didn't explode as it was resting against the garage wall - the fire started at the rear right hand side and the fuel tank was front left. But still, 5 days after moving in to a new property and I manage to burn the garage down - pretty sure the landlord isn't impressed...
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bad shit there deadeye/....dont despair though matey?...claim off your ins, get what you can off the robbing bstds and pick up a insrnce write off!! plenty of cat d and c"s out there!!! ;) ....bet there still some stuff you,l be able to salvage off toasty!!
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:eek Sorry to hear and see the aftermath of this.
I expect the sparks from the electric motor on your home made ultrasonic bath ignited petrol fumes.
Think of this as a challenge for a winter project :rolleyes or not...
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That is a nightmare :'(
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:eek Sorry to hear and see the aftermath of this.
I expect the sparks from the electric motor on your home made ultrasonic bath ignited petrol fumes.
Think of this as a challenge for a winter project :rolleyes or not...
Its a fair guess and may be right - but there was no smell of fuel and no rags / containers nearby that had been subjected to fuel / flammable liquids (that weren't sealed - there was a can of Carb Cleaner that I'd just bought on the dryer - the bath was on the floor). I'd used the bath the day before for over an hour and a half and there were none of the smells for electrical burnout and no excessive heat on the sander or box... Obviously it was the sander that started it, but how is a complete mystery to me at current.
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Holy crap! Thank God no one got hurt. I feel bad for encouraging you to clean the carb now. The poor bike is wrecked. Could you put up the link to ultrasonic machine I didn't get a look at it the first time. It would serve as a warning to anyone else thinking of using it. Feck sake what a disaster I'm really gutted for you Dead Eye
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Don't feel bad, its not your fault at all - the carbs really did need cleaning. Kind of annoying how I finally bought the Morgan Carbtune and now its sat inside (thankfully) without ever having been used.
The link for the ultrasonic bath is here (http://www.classicbikeforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3358) but after my events I'd suggest using a toothbrush and carb cleaner or get a company to do it for you :(
I was just getting to that point of withdrawal from not having ridden for a while... looks like I'm going cold turkey. One final annoying part is that I have a car that I needed to replace the gearbox on to get it roadworthy - unfortunately all of my tools have been disintegrated and I can't afford to replace them at current so I can't even work on that.
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Maybe the sander overheated or the motor was a bit sparky. Was turned on for a long time? Was crap luck that it spread over to the bike.
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I was scrolling slowly down those horrific pics thinking this must be a wind-up... truly sorry that it wasn't. :'(
Was the dryer in use at the time? Just wondering if that might've been the start of it rather than your ultrasonic(ish) cleaning contraption.
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Nightmare! Any chance fluid splashed onto the sander? water and leccy don't go too well...
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@His Dudeness - Potentially yes, but it wasn't on for long at all. I had the system running for over an hour and a half the day before and there were no electrical smells and the box and sander weren't hot at all.
@Fazerider - Unfortunately not a wind up :( I'm fairly certain the dryer wasn't in operation, but its not something I'd thought of - potentially a road worth investigating.
@richfzs - The box had a lid on it that was sealed so I would be surprised if any fluid got out...
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So everything has gone horribly horribly wrong :( I was cleaning the carb bodies yesterday ready for reassembly and then this happened
([url]http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154222_resized_1.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154414_resized_1.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154424_resized_1.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.imperial-empire-se.com/images/foc-u/20121018_154448_resized_1.jpg[/url])
My poor 600 is gone :'( :'( :'( :'(
Not likely to be getting another one any time soon - the excess on my insurance policy is half of what the bike is insured for, plus there is the no claims discount that will disappear and cost me more money in the future - long story short is that even if I did claim I wouldn't be able to afford to buy another.
Oh and I'm not certain what started the fire, but the leading guess is that it was the home made ultrasonic bath - so DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME
what a screwed up system this country has when multi billion pound insurance companies charge you so much for excess that its not worth claiming on an item when you really need their help !!!
feel really bad for you dead eye
p.s couldnt you say the fire started with the tumble drier and claim off your landlords insurance ? :eek :eek ;)
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phillywilly has a point there. if the garage is technically part of the house then you might be able to claim for the bike under the contents cover of the house.
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The contents cover is arranged by us (the tenants) for which the bike isn't covered unfortunately. It's under the same section saying that no vehicle accessories or tools are covered either which again sucks.
Just going to have to save my pennys (the few I have remaining) and take it from there... I think the exhaust might be salvageable so I'll take a stab at removing it and cleaning it up but I don't hold much hope.
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Frame & logbook worth money?
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The front end may be salvageable. Obviously it's a bit messy having had the fairing melt all over it, but it doesn't look like it got particularly hot. Forks may be fine after a cleanup and new seals, likewise the wheel and brake calipers.
Was second gear good? Engine internals like the drum, selector forks and gears should have survived the heat.
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bl**dy hell deadeye :( .......iam glad you were not in there....gutted for you mate,absolutly gutted :( :( :( ......i think you might be supprised at the amount of parts you can salvage,not a nice situation to be in but if you get yourself back out to the garage and strip the bike down theres probs quite a few parts that are still useable ;) could offer them on here or ebay ;)
really sorry for you matey :( [size=78%] [/size]
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Real bad luck Dead Eye, i think we all do work on our bikes in the garage & Could of happen to any of us.
Quite intrigued as to why the fire started, was there any ventilation whilst working on the bike, such as door open?
You should post this on some other bike forums and see if anyone can shed light on to why?
Mark.
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Yeah, its a bit of a mystery :s
The door to the garage was closed because the sander makes a fair bit of noise...
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@richfzs - The box had a lid on it that was sealed so I would be surprised if any fluid got out...
A sealed lid? How tight a seal? and you've got a fizzy drink in it, that's being shaken round?
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It was a relatively tight seal. I had the system in operation for an hour and a half the previous day after the drink had just been poured and there were no leaks. The drink was subsequently left overnight so was likely fairly flat in the afternoon when I set it up for the second time. I think thats the most annoying aspect - it worked fine the day before with no signs of malfunction etc and then suddenly it all went to sh!t
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Holy shit! :eek Glad no one was hurt. Gutted for you.
Just a thought, you said the bike was ticking......maybe it was a bomb?....could explain both the ticking and the fire. :b
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If only that was the case just to make more sense of it :P