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General => General => Topic started by: locksmith on 13 August 2012, 11:31:32 am
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How were your olympics?
While I don't follow any of the sports featured, I found myself drawn in and "dipping in" here and there to watch a little. Our village had a giant screen in the park on the middle Saturday and I spent a couple of hours there with a beer or two in the sunshine.
As far as I can tell it was a strange couple of weeks where everyone was sharing some love 8)
It was feared that traffic would affect us around Ebbsfleet station but it didn't.
I really enjoyed the spectacle of the opening and closing ceremonies but why on earth was George Michael allowed to do his latest single that not very many people would have known!!!!
Now bring on the new footie season... :b
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Quality and wish I'd seen more of it but had to work, I'm going to try and get tickets when it's in Europe next. Spent most of the time asking myself "how the hell are they doing that?".
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It was much better and more entertaining than I thought it'd be, even the traffic on the way into work (A12 past the Olympic park) was pretty much non-existant... much busier today than any day in the last two weeks. Glad to see we did pretty well too :)
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I went to Turkey halfway through to avoid it all and have managed to do just that apart from having to check the medal tallies on interweb for the mrs.
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How were your olympics?
I spent half of them surfing and biking around North Devon, so all in all pretty good! :)
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Money could have been better spent...............
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Yes, it was a lot of money, but its bought a sense of achievement to the country, a sense of pride, showed that we can still do things well, showed us in a good light to the rest of the world, and the list goes on.
I think it starts look almost cheap, mesself.
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Yes, it was a lot of money, but its bought a sense of achievement to the country, a sense of pride, showed that we can still do things well, showed us in a good light to the rest of the world, and the list goes on.
I think it starts look almost cheap, mesself.
You are quite correct. The majority of the money came from the Lottery and Corporate sponsorship and less than £1 from each taxpayer.
I was concerned that the constant ramming of the Olympics down the nation's throat for the last 7 years would have a detrimental effect but I'm pleased to say it has been a great success and one I'm pleased to have participated in.
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Yes, it was a lot of money, but its bought a sense of achievement to the country, a sense of pride, showed that we can still do things well, showed us in a good light to the rest of the world, and the list goes on.
I think it starts look almost cheap, mesself.
i also i agree, i loved the games from start to finish and think team GB did us proud. I think the games came at the right time for the UK, its put some hope and pride back into the place. :)
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Thoroughly enjoyed it, :thumbup great advert for GB. The crowds in the different venues were fantastic, wish I`d got some tickets now. Pity we are now back to crap TV
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Pity we are now back to crap TV
But at least there's some News on TV again now!
I liked the picture on the front of Private Eye recently: "And in other news, Aliens have invaded the Earth" :D
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I also found myself converted from a cynical moaner to an Olympics addict.
Apart from the empty seats I could not find any fault at all with the whole show and I am amazed that it all went so smoothly.
Now, sadly, after such a superabundance of sporting variety we must return to the standard TV sport coverage......... football. :z
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I deliberately avoided the whole thing, just not my cuppa tea. Congratulations are due however, to those athlete's that did us proud, and who have shown young British kids that they too can become a national hero without the aid of Simon Cowell. It takes guts, dedication, hard work, and team spirit to make the grade, but those qualities will carry through in later life - great role models!
Now back to football. Unprincipled, spoiled, spitting, whingeing cry babies on megabucks for poor performances.
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I miss it :( The BBC's online coverage was great - I got to watch all sorts of sports I'd never managed to see before (archery, BMX, water polo etc.) and I could watch what I wanted when I wanted :thumbup I've now been living in the host country for two Olympics - Sydney and London - which is a rare privilege. There's nothing like being in the same timezone and seeing things properly Live. The online technology has come a long way since 2000.
The opening and closing ceremonies were good - very professional and nothing went obviously wrong - but I found two things disappointing:
1. The overall feeling I got was that GB is living in the past. Yes, we've got an amazing history (the bits that don't involve invading and exploiting other countries ;) ) but we've got an amazing Now as well, and where was it? A couple of kids texting each other in the opening ceremony and Taio Cruz, Tinchy Strider, Jessie J and (shudder) One Direction in the closing ceremony. Even Dizzie Rascal, Muse, Elbow and the Kaiser Chiefs have been around for a fair while (in pop music terms). I know they wanted to use people and images that everyone overseas would recognise but it would have been good if they could have made more of what we've got to offer the modern world right now.
2. I expect this will re-open the usual can of worms but why was nothing made of the ethnic diversity of Britain? All I saw was the Indian drummers around Eric Idle and that lasted a couple of minutes. The rest of the time you were lucky to see a slightly dark-skinned dancer as the camera flew past them. At least we had Dizzie, Taio and Tinchy but I doubt they were chosen because of their ethnic background. Like it or not, Britain is ethnically diverse but neither ceremony was which was a pity.
Discuss :D
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I expect this will re-open the usual can of worms but why was nothing made of the ethnic diversity of Britain? Discuss :D
I think the athlete's themselves reflected the ethnic diversity of today's Britain.
Otherwise I don't think anything should be 'made' of it, to what end? The nation recently celebrated the anniversary of the head of state yet if you examine the crowd scenes you wouldn't think that Britain was an ethnically diverse nation. Wouldn't want to 'make' something of that either.
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Now back to football. Unprincipled, spoiled, spitting, whingeing cry babies on megabucks for poor performances.
Couldn't agree more mate. The footballers could learn a lot from many sports over the last few weeks, with their bolshie attitudes, and their rolling around on the floor "Ref, he looked at me wrong, look I'm holding my shin, ow it hurts". Just a few examples:-
a) American sprinter in the 4*400 - broke his leg at the 200m point, but finished his leg quick enough for them to qualify for the final
b) Tony Martin in the Tour de France, broke his wrist but rode another few days before retiring
c) I forget his name, another rider in the TdF, crashed heavily, but completed the stage (around 25km) before saying he thought he should go to hospital - where they told him he'd broken his hip.
d) The grief they get away with dishing out to the referees - any other sport they'd be sent off immediately. Compare with RugbyU, where the ref is "Sir" and even if a wrong call is made, there is no back chat at all - and not even much complaint after the game is complete, just an acceptance thats how it is.
The footballers deserve no respect at all, and are definitely no role models.
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I don't think anything should be 'made' of it, to what end?
To show the world that we're aware of it and glad of it. The opening ceremony was meant to be a celebration of all that's good about Britain and I found it disappointing that that wasn't included.
And I agree that the Team GB athletes reflect it, but that all happened after the opening ceremony.
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To show the world that we're aware of it and glad of it.
We?
Perhaps we should also have celebrated how wonderful it is to be in the EU? Or replaced the Union flags with Brussels star circles and had our MP's march along waving them as examples of personal integrity and trustworthyness? The whole thing was political propaganda, stage managed confection, total bollox intended to project an image of a Britain that doesn't actually exist.
The athletes did well, but they were and are being used as political pawns.
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I think the balance was about right when you consider most of the topics covered in the opening ceremony were a celebration of Britian's contributions to the world and most of those happened prior WWII while Britain had a predominantly white population. I remember seeing one of the industrialists was black and thinking, "fairly unlikely there would have been a rich black guy in the days women didn't even have the vote".
Wasn't there a section that represented the mass immigration of West Indian workers after the war period? Then there was the kids who lit the cauldron, they weren't all white.
I don't think positive discrimination to over express our diverse ethnic community would have done anything more than scream "we're not racist here, honest" and what's the point of that?
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To me it is a celebration of success acheived through bloody hard work.
Not political, not black and white.
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I don't think positive discrimination to over express our diverse ethnic community would have done anything more than scream "we're not racist here, honest" and what's the point of that?
That's what I mean.
The achievements of the athletes of whatever ethnic background are the result of their own drive and determination, of singular hard work and dedication to their sport. Let's not take all that away from them as individuals and pretend that they managed it because of how diverse Britain is today, which is what the politicians are trying to say. Also, pandering to minorities is getting old, in my view it serves to highlight a perceived difference rather than treating everyone the same.
And finally, the 'elephant in the room' for all those that would foist the diversity mantra upon us was the lack of burqua clad British flag bearers - You'll see that when hell freezes over. So as we celebrate the achievements of the brightest and best of our young athletes at home, also spare a thought for the brightest and best of our young people in the armed forces, currently overseas fighting and dying for the rights of immigrants to come here and hate us.
The fireworks were nice, and as they lit up the London skyline in their multi million pound splendour I'm sure the tens of thousands of unfortunates sleeping in doorways had an excellent view.
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...................and don't forget the brilliant Gemma Gibbons who fought on in the judo WITH A BROKEN THUMB and won a Silver medal.
On the news this morning some poofie fotballer has pulled out because he had "a bruised thigh". Great example to British youth.
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Ozpom - the opening ceremony was massively diverse! The actors of various skin colours playing parts that would have been white at the time, the whole section about the immigrant workforce to rebuild after the war. The the section about teenagers appears to be about teenagers in that particular part of London (this made me laugh actually as I got a message from the Brazilian side of the family asking where the English kids were!). Add in the volunteers and flag carriers of various backgrounds (including a lot of head scarves but no burka that I saw) there was a pretty obvious mix of people through the games.
The closing ceremony was a different thing though. Actually it celebrated our tolerance of drug addicts..... ;o)
The indian dancers around Eric Idle was a bit odd though. And the whole closing ceremony was a bit under-par compared to the rest of the event. So lets remember the athletes instead hey?
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Anyone tuning in for the Paralympics :lol
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...................and don't forget the brilliant Gemma Gibbons who fought on in the judo WITH A BROKEN THUMB and won a Silver medal.
On the news this morning some poofie fotballer has pulled out because he had "a bruised thigh". Great example to British youth.
I've just seen this on Facebook:
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There was also a female hockey player had her jaw broken with a full on whack with a hockey stick. They patcher her up and she played the rest of the tournament with a fractured jaw - absolute hero. :)
So lets remember the athletes instead hey?
Exactly. Not Boris Johnson or Cameron.
As for diversity I think it is wrong to 'celebrate' it. Now before anyone jumps down my throat please bear with me. Those individual athlete's (of all ethnic backgrounds) did something very special, they plotted themselves a course, trained hard, and dug deep within their mental and physical reserves to win through, and That is what needs celebrating.
These were people from all backgrounds, social strata and ethnicity, but what they had in common was the will to overcome the odds and to succeed. When put together those diverse individuals formed 'Team GB' and went on to make us proud. The message that we should take from this is that commonality of purpose is what makes us work well together, and achieving shared goals are what brings out the team spirit and self respect as a nation. To point out our differences as this current obsession with celebrating diversity does, is to divide into segments rather than unite as a whole.
We've seen what can be achieved if we all work together for a common goal, so why make a feature of distinctions and divisions rather than unite under one banner?
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Couldn't agree more mate. The footballers could learn a lot from many sports over the last few weeks, with their bolshie attitudes, and their rolling around on the floor "Ref, he looked at me wrong, look I'm holding my shin, ow it hurts". Just a few examples:-
a) American sprinter in the 4*400 - broke his leg at the 200m point, but finished his leg quick enough for them to qualify for the final
b) Tony Martin in the Tour de France, broke his wrist but rode another few days before retiring
c) I forget his name, another rider in the TdF, crashed heavily, but completed the stage (around 25km) before saying he thought he should go to hospital - where they told him he'd broken his hip.
d) The grief they get away with dishing out to the referees - any other sport they'd be sent off immediately. Compare with RugbyU, where the ref is "Sir" and even if a wrong call is made, there is no back chat at all - and not even much complaint after the game is complete, just an acceptance thats how it is.
The footballers deserve no respect at all, and are definitely no role models.
Sounds like something you hear from a woman. You played football?
Vinnie Jones - Football's hard men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6vm0x8JpBU#)
cristiano ronaldo injuries and fouls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XasKjAJydFA#)
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I'd be willing to boot anyone anyone in the shin with their shinnies on so we can gauge their reaction
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Not wanting to get too Grahamm-esque but...
To show the world that we're aware of it and glad of it.
We?
Yes, we, the people of Britain, who were being represented by the ceremonies. We, the British people who understand that while there are immigrants who take the piss and break the rules there are a lot of non-immigrants who do the same things and lot a of immigrants who do things right and make the UK a better place. If that doesn't include you then that's a pity.
Perhaps we should also have celebrated how wonderful it is to be in the EU? Or replaced the Union flags with Brussels star circles and had our MP's march along waving them as examples of personal integrity and trustworthyness? The whole thing was political propaganda, stage managed confection, total bollox intended to project an image of a Britain that doesn't actually exist.
The athletes did well, but they were and are being used as political pawns.
Yes, they are, but as often happens in these sorts of discussions you're taking things to extremes to dodge the question. I'm not going to push this any further as I'll just be dismissed as a lefty pinko tree-hugger :rolleyes
Ozpom - the opening ceremony was massively diverse! The actors of various skin colours playing parts that would have been white at the time, the whole section about the immigrant workforce to rebuild after the war. The section about teenagers appears to be about teenagers in that particular part of London (this made me laugh actually as I got a message from the Brazilian side of the family asking where the English kids were!). Add in the volunteers and flag carriers of various backgrounds (including a lot of head scarves but no burka that I saw) there was a pretty obvious mix of people through the games.
Ah yes, I admit I'd forgotten the post-war immigration part. And yes, there was a good ethnic mix in the people who took part. It's just that no specific mention was made of how good it is that GB is a colourful mix of cultures, it was just left in the background. Maybe they though they'd offend too many Daily Mail readers :(
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Or maybe they thought they'd be British about about it and present it without ramming it down people's throats? Did you want a specific section thanking the Aussies for their contribution to bar work? ;)
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I wouldn't complain ;)
How does "mention" become "ramming it down people's throats"? :\
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Just think of the Great British sportsmen (and women) in the past: Zola Budd,, Lennox Lewis,, Mo Farah,,,,
Hang on a minute!!!
Oh yeah, and the american bird who couldnt qualify for team america so is repersenting GB on the track,,,,,
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Don't forget Wiggins (Born in Belgium to an Australian father - but grew up in London from the age of 7), Chris Froome - Kenyan but switched to British nationality (his parents or grandparents were british) to further his career. Cavendish and Kennaugh are from the the Isle of Man so are British dependencies, not part of the UK.
I loved Mo Farrar's response to a journalists question about whether he would prefer to have been running for Somalia. Pretty clear cut there where his loyalties are.
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Not wanting to get too Grahamm-esque but...
Yes, we, the people of Britain, who were being represented by the ceremonies. We, the British people who understand that while there are immigrants who take the piss and break the rules there are a lot of non-immigrants who do the same things and lot a of immigrants who do things right and make the UK a better place. If that doesn't include you then that's a pity.
I find it interesting that you believe you have a mandate to speak on behalf on the entire British people, except of course for the sizeable majority that would disagree with you for whom of course it's just 'a pity'.
And just how good is it that Britain is a colourful mix of alien cultures? Why can't it just be Britain? Surely that's what attracted all those cultures here in the first place? There's nothing good about Sharia law, child slavery, witchcraft, honour killings or polygamy, which appears to be the sort of cultural manifestations that are prevalent around here, or were you just thinking how you enjoy a curry?
You mention two newspapers that hold opposing points of view in an attempt to polarise and/or stereotype a disparate group of individuals that have no affiliation to either. Individuals that do however, have the ability and good sense to think for themselves. If true to form the next weapon in the excuse arsenal would come in the form of ad Hominem attacks, so I'll leave this conversation there. Just for the record, I'm also British, part of the British people, and No, you don't speak for me, just as Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, and David Cameron doesn't either.
Apparently that's 'a pity'.
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To be honest, thank God's it's over. I should have loved it, but today the Olympics is more about corporate greed and national prestige and patriotism than anything else. And what are all these professional athletes and sports persons doing there?
I heard one interesting comment on the radio as to what should actually be in the Olympics, one sports pundit offering the opinion, if any sport has it's biggest moment elsewhere then it probably shouldn't be in the Olympics. That makes sense to me. As much as I loved to see Bradley Wiggins win gold, not to mention get pissed and smoke a few roll ups, I don't understand why the road race and time trial are open to pros.
The coverage. Please keep it off the news channels. And thank god for Al Jazeera! Second, do we have to be so focused on ourselves, and oh those painful ten times too long interviews with the winning (British only) athletes. The best coverage I found was on foreign news channels, free of the UK's self obsessed patriotism.
As for all you 'asylum seeking' anti-immigration EDL and BNP supporters, well the UK wouldn't have won that many medals without a little immigration over the last few decades.
As for those opening and closing ceremonies, I didn't watch them, I hate all that crap. Sure some sort of ceremony is needed, but now it's just 'look at us' - 'we are better than you' throw a few hundred million at it patriotic bollocks exercise.
So as we celebrate the achievements of the brightest and best of our young athletes at home, also spare a thought for the brightest and best of our young people in the armed forces, currently overseas fighting and dying for the rights of immigrants to come here and hate us.
The biggest numbers of 'asylum seekers' in the last few years coming to the UK have been Iraqi and Afghan. That's cos the poor kids in the armed forces, who know nothing of the countries they are fighting in, or what they are fighting for, are over there fucking up countries for our rich leaders stupid global political fantasies. We got fucked in Iraq, we are getting fucked in Afghanistan, as anybody with half a brain knew we would, it's time to get our good young boys and girls out of it and back home with their families where they belong.
Meanwhile I watched "Is football racist" I think that's what it was called. Sure amazing progress has been made in terms of racial tolerance. But yeah, one point made by this programme was, if half the players are black or from other minorities, well where are all the black managers? Good question.
To point out our differences as this current obsession with celebrating diversity does, is to divide into segments rather than unite as a whole.
As one friend put it to me. I'll be happy when the day comes that I'm just Scottish, not an Asian Scot, or Scottish Muslim, just Scottish. But we still have a long way to go Rusty.
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I definitely think that there is room for an IAM Olympic Event!
Gold medal for observation, anyone!
Motorbike dressage?
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There's nothing good about Sharia law, child slavery, witchcraft, honour killings or polygamy, which appears to be the sort of cultural manifestations that are prevalent around here, or were you just thinking how you enjoy a curry?
What's wrong with polygamy?!? :rollin
Anyway, different cultures are different. The fact you percieve yours as "better" is a bit shortsighted, but I'm sure it's easier to look at the world in such way.
Most immigrants didn't come for British culture (and sure as hell not for the weather), but for the money. Or to save their necks. My country was bombed by "the allies" some 10 years ago and many people fled to Germany and England. To work, to live.
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What about the sport then, that wasn't bad viewing, eh?
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What's wrong with polygamy? Multiple mother in laws! ;)
To point out our differences as this current obsession with celebrating diversity does, is to divide into segments rather than unite as a whole.
As one friend put it to me. I'll be happy when the day comes that I'm just Scottish, not an Asian Scot, or Scottish Muslim, just Scottish. But we still have a long way to go Rusty.
Indeed... on both sides. But you get what I'm driving at don't you, and we can't get there unless we are all part of the whole. All this talk of celebrating one set over another or focussing attention to this or that just perpetuates the differences, it's time we dropped it. I look at America and see the greatest amount of ethnic diversity on earth, yet when the band plays they all are proud to be an 'American'.
Britain has an established culture, and similarly all are invited to share in it and be proud of it. I don't believe there is anything Bnp or Edl in those sentiments, nor would I wish them to be construed in that way. As for the Olympics, I see it as a gathering of noble athletes that all do their countries proud, unfortunately for many (Britain included) the governments and leaders of those respective nations don't deserve such accolades themselves.
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But you get what I'm driving at don't you, and we can't get there unless we are all part of the whole. All this talk of celebrating one set over another or focussing attention to this or that just perpetuates the differences, it's time we dropped it.
I disagree celebrating our multi-cultural society is about bring all together, it should be about opening up cultures, learning about each other and coming together.
I look at America and see the greatest amount of ethnic diversity on earth, yet when the band plays they all are proud to be an 'American'.
I look at America and see the richest nation in the world, with the biggest gap between rich and poor, a country that can't even provide basic health care and where many minorities live in ghettos. I see a country that displays dangerous levels of patriotism and marginalises anybody who dares to take a stand or speak the truth "you are either with us or against us" - George W Bush.
Lets not take any lessons from the USA.
Britain has an established culture, and similarly all are invited to share in it and be proud of it.
Cultures are not set in stone, they are constantly evolving, immigration is part of that evolution. I welcome cultural progress. As for being British, no thank-you, I'm looking forward to our referendum in 2014. I'm Scottish first, European second, and British last, and well done to those Scottish and Welsh athletes who refused to sing God Save the Queen!
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Sounds like something you hear from a woman. You played football?
Thanks, I like to think I'm in touch with my feminine side :rollin
No, I haven't played football. And nor would I, its far too dangerous. Not the game itself, but the w@nkers who play and think, because their role models get away with it, that they can get away with abusing the ref, and doing hatchet jobs on opposing players because they think they'll get away with it. Just one example, son of a friend of mine was 2 weeks from joining the army, and took part in a charity tournament - his legs were chopped out in a hideous foul, wrecked his achilles tendon, and delayed his army career by 6 months. The opposing player? Got off scot free, not even a yellow card - and he was playing on the fire service team, somebody supposedly a decent member of the community, but on the football field, he's a thug. Any why is he a thug? Because his role models are, they get way with it, no respect for the referee.
I'd be willing to boot anyone anyone in the shin with their shinnies on so we can gauge their reaction
Nobody is saying it doesn't hurt, when you do get a boot in the shin (well I'm not, anyway), its the way they whinge about it, like no other sport does. But my original point, was that they play act when they haven't been touched. Cheating, in effect - and we're back to abysmal role models.
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Thanks, I like to think I'm in touch with my feminine side :rollin
No, I haven't played football. And nor would I, its far too dangerous. Not the game itself, but the w@nkers who play and think, because their role models get away with it, that they can get away with abusing the ref, and doing hatchet jobs on opposing players because they think they'll get away with it.
Just one example, son of a friend of mine was 2 weeks from joining the army, and took part in a charity tournament - his legs were chopped out in a hideous foul, wrecked his achilles tendon, and delayed his army career by 6 months. The opposing player? Got off scot free, not even a yellow card - and he was playing on the fire service team, somebody supposedly a decent member of the community, but on the football field, he's a thug. Any why is he a thug? Because his role models are, they get way with it, no respect for the referee.
Shit happens. If you know how to take care of yourself, and if opponents aren't complete idiots, you should be fine 90% of the time. There is an unspoken agreement on what you can and can't do. You respect defenders, they respect you.
If that opposing player's start was out of place, someone should have taken care of him on first opportunity.
Nobody is saying it doesn't hurt, when you do get a boot in the shin (well I'm not, anyway), its the way they whinge about it, like no other sport does. But my original point, was that they play act when they haven't been touched. Cheating, in effect - and we're back to abysmal role models.
It's all a part of the game. You put pressure on opponents, on the ref. Try to make the best of it. While I hate fouls that deliberately injure other players (except when in retribution!), everything else is a part of the game. I truly respect players that can foul you without the ref seeing it. Just as I respect those that make it look like you've fouled them, when you haven't. It's almost the same skill as dribbling.
Once as kid in a local league game i got very frustrated. Got fouled and tackled a lot. After sprinting past two guys pulling my shirt and shorts I got tackled from behind by the third guy. Managed to skip most of it, got some sloppy shot at goal, keeper bounced it into corner. I was furious with the ref! "What do I have to do to get a foul here?!?" The ref calmly replied: "fall down."
Defenders who foul and tackle hard try to scare you and change your style of play. It's a challenge. Good teams cope with that no problems.
One exception is fixed games - when referees or certain players know what the result should be in the end. That is idiotic and quite common these days. Often catch myself trying to figure if they're playing for real in the first half when watching our local championship... or Italians. :)
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Thanks, think you've just illustrated why I have no time for football quite nicely.
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I disagree celebrating our multi-cultural society is about bring all together, it should be about opening up cultures, learning about each other and coming together.
But instead it appears to be about the importing of cultures while making our own subservient to them. There isn't anything to celebrate in that - it's idiotic. Again there was no mandate for this, it is purely enforced social engineering, and those that are marginalised are those who are 'impolite' enough to mention it.
As for being British, no thank-you, I'm looking forward to our referendum in 2014. I'm Scottish first, European second, and British last, and well done to those Scottish and Welsh athletes who refused to sing God Save the Queen!
I was going to point that out when you mentioned your Muslim friend wanting to be 'Scottish' (not British). The above comment typifies exactly the situation we're in. Had I stated that I am English first and not British, then within seconds the familiar EDL/BNP slurs would be aired. I too look forward to your referendum, I hope it goes well for you. I also look forward to our own in/out EU referendum, because I'm English and I wish to governed only by an English democracy.
Finally, while it's fair to say that I'm not the least inclined to feel Royalist, I'd much rather stand for the queen than bow to mecca. Such is my birthright, and just as you value your Scots heritage and independence I have equal right to value mine. Therefore I do take umbridge when some folk try to give it away in an attempt to prove their right on credentials.
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But instead it appears to be about the importing of cultures while making our own subservient to them.
Culture evolves. Multi-culturism is about bring people together. I've been to a number of community multicultural events and great fun they were too. As for us and them, I don't get that, I'm not interested, I don't care about colour, race or religion, there is only one race and that's the human race.
I was going to point that out when you mentioned your Muslim friend wanting to be 'Scottish' (not British). The above comment typifies exactly the situation we're in.
Recent pols have shown that Scottish Asians are more Scottish than white ethnic Scots. The Scottish National Party today takes the lion's share of the Asian vote.
Had I stated that I am English first and not British, then within seconds the familiar EDL/BNP slurs would be aired.
You've lost me there! Talking of sport, and umm, motorcycles, one great man did much for his country. Carl Fogarty. When he won a race, he always picked up the St Georges flag, and good on him.
I too look forward to your referendum, I hope it goes well for you.
Cheers. Fingers crossed.
I also look forward to our own in/out EU referendum, because I'm English and I wish to governed only by an English democracy.
How do you mean? Right now England can't have an in/out EU referendum. Even if Scotland leaves the union, England still can't have such a referendum. And nor can England govern itself. Too often the English think they are Britain, they are not.
Finally, while it's fair to say that I'm not the least inclined to feel Royalist, I'd much rather stand for the queen than bow to mecca.
Again, what the foc are you on about? You are starting to sound just a little weird.
Therefore I do take umbridge when some folk try to give it away in an attempt to prove their right on credentials.
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the Queen
Never have sung it, never will.
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Dunno why that last bit came out so small, and of course there's no darn edit button.
But here it is;
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,May by thy mighty aid,Victory bring.May he sedition hush,and like a torrent rush,Rebellious Scots to crush,God save the Queen
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I can see the objection, but I'm a land of hope and glory man myself. Or perhaps Elgar.
Right now England can't have an in/out EU referendum. Even if Scotland leaves the union, England still can't have such a referendum. And nor can England govern itself.
Who says? Who can deny us a referendum? If the populace demand one then it is their right to have one. England has governed itself for a thousand years why should it appear to you that this is no longer possible? How odd. So what your saying here is that Scotland being the most parochial nation of the union can suddenly govern itself quite happily, having had no recent experience and lacking the finance to support itself, but England can't?
Too often the English think they are Britain, they are not.
It's usually the left that use the term British in such an incorrect manner. It's part of that all inclusivity that they preach which is then snubbed by those it is meant to appease. Personally I'd ditch the term. We don't even have a tick box for English on our forms any more, they insist on a box marked British. :rolleyes
Again, what the foc are you on about? You are starting to sound just a little weird.
It's quite simple. There appears to be a trend amongst current politicians and left wing trendies to show how cosmopolitan they are by destroying or giving away much of our heritage. My view is that they can give away as much as they like of that which belongs to them, but nothing at all of what belongs to others, as it isn't theirs to give. What's complicated or weird about that?
By the way this software is shite I'm struggling to separate the text.
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I can see the objection, but I'm a land of hope and glory man myself. Or perhaps Elgar
That should of course read or perhaps 'Holst'. Can't edit posts.
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I think this going a bit off topic, but;
Scotland can call a consultative referendum on almost anything it wants. That's becuase we have a government. We have the strange situation of having a majority nationalist government in a minority or coalition parliament. The impossible has just become possible.
Who says? Who can deny us a referendum?
You have to have a government before you can call a referendum on England being within the EU. England does not have it's own parliament. England does not have a government.
In any case leaving the EU won't happen, UK, Scotland or a future England. It's pretty much economic suicide. It sounds good, plays to the audience well, may get you votes, but those politicians calling for in/out referendum, well most of em will shit their pants if there wish was granted.
It's usually the left that use the term British in such an incorrect manner.
Certainly Rusty could do with figuring out the difference between England, English, Britain and British.
There appears to be a trend amongst current politicians and left wing trendies to show how cosmopolitan they are by destroying or giving away much of our heritage. My view is that they can give away as much as they like of that which belongs to them, but nothing at all of what belongs to others, as it isn't theirs to give. What's complicated or weird about that?
Other than it's meaningless sound bite drivel, nothing.
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Congratulations I see you've reached the Ad Hominem stage. :rolleyes
You may hold the odd personal notion that England has no government/Parliament but that doesn't make it so. Do we live in a democracy or no? As for the old chestnut about economic suicide. We currently export more elsewhere than we do to Europe, it's simply a matter of strengthening those markets.
On the second point Rusty knows this - The difference between English and British, is that England and the English are the core. 'British' or 'Britain' refers to the whole i.e. inclusion of the subsidised bits tacked on.
And finally, speaking of sound bite drivel. (Oh How flippantly a person's views are dismissed when they don't concur) especially by one who recently accused the Americans of dangerous levels of patriotism possessed of a 'With us or agin us' mentality. That was the phrase wasn't it? As I'm clearly not with you I suppose that last comment was to only be expected. Pot kettle anyone?
I'll end on Slaninars honest comment. Being an immigrant (from danger) himself he reminds us that "most immigrants didn't come here for the culture they came for the money". Well said Slaninar, had I said that even though it were true I would have been castigated by the very same people who advocate enforced multiculturalism. Hand wringing and accusations of BNP and EDL sympathies would abound, just as their names were raised earlier simply because I offered an opposing point of view.
Off topic indeed, back to the Olympics then eh.
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....Well said rusty!!..... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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I'll end on Slaninars honest comment. Being an immigrant (from danger) himself he reminds us that "most immigrants didn't come here for the culture they came for the money". Well said Slaninar, had I said that even though it were true I would have been castigated by the very same people who advocate enforced multiculturalism. Hand wringing and accusations of BNP and EDL sympathies would abound, just as their names were raised earlier simply because I offered an opposing point of view.
I'm not an immigrant. Not myself. Wouldn't want to be unless really forced. My city has been full of refugies from other republics since 1992. Completely changed the look of it, the culture (for a more savage one IMO). And these are the same nation people, not some foreigners - same nation, but from rural, or mountainous parts. Bad manners, smuggling etc. So I completely understand how a UK born man could feel about immigrants. They come because they have to, that is OK, but you don't have to like them.
Having said all this, once you realise they are DIFFERENT, not better or worse, you can live with it. All the things have both good and bad sides, try to make the most of it.
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While I don't agree that immigrants come because they have to, I totally understand Slaninar.
My position is not one of anti-immigration, racism, or bigotry which might easily be attributed to my comments. I look at this purely from a point of genuine concern. I have seen my home town totally transformed due to mass immigration over a very short period, and I grow weary of the political correctness that tells me that I must celebrate the fact.The infrastructure is crumbling and there aren't sufficient jobs, schools or houses. As you say I don't have to like it, but thanks to our politicians I do have to live it.
No more from me on this subject, emotive topics often end badly. :)
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Thanks, think you've just illustrated why I have no time for football quite nicely.
No offence meant to your mahood or anything like that, man. Just from what you wrote I thought you were talking about something you don't really understand. Like you confirmed now. That's cool. No need to like every sport. My point was pro footballers are tough men and very skillfull. No matter how well they're paid when they reach the top (and that's just 1%), it takes a lot and it's not for everyone. Reaction to your and Graham's posts. The amount of money they get, whether it's "worth" it is irrelevant - they are good sportsmen.
While I don't agree that immigrants come because they have to, I totally understand Slaninar.
My position is not one of anti-immigration, racism, or bigotry which might easily be attributed to my comments. I look at this purely from a point of genuine concern. I have seen my home town totally transformed due to mass immigration over a very short period, and I grow weary of the political correctness that tells me that I must celebrate the fact.The infrastructure is crumbling and there aren't sufficient jobs, schools or houses. As you say I don't have to like it, but thanks to our politicians I do have to live it.
I 100% understand anti-immigration, even racism. While we here don't have blacks, there are chineese and gypsies. 90% of gypsies will steall your wallet if they have an opportunity. It is experience. My friend lives in a part of town full of gypsies and can't leave anything in the yard. They steal everything. He doesn't hate them for being gypsies, but when he sees a gypsie, he is almost certain he should keep his wallet close. The only thing that differs him from stupid nazi idiots is that, when he meets a MAN, he doesn't care for the nationality/coloru/religion - he judges that particular person by his human qualities. But for people just crossing the street, public places etc, he is as gipsy hating as they come.
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You may hold the odd personal notion that England has no government/Parliament but that doesn't make it so. Do we live in a democracy or no?
It's not a personal notion, it's a fact. For England to hold an in/out referendum on the EU, it would first have to have a referendum on English Independance. The UK could hold an in/out referendum, but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could try and stop it, though it's far from clear if they could actually do anything about it. Again I think you are confused, England is not Britain or the UK.
As for the old chestnut about economic suicide. We currently export more elsewhere than we do to Europe, it's simply a matter of strengthening those markets.
Perhaps, but Europe is our single biggest market, we have unrestricted access and influence over how it operates. A countries immediate trading partners are always it's most important economic partners. While successive UK governments have sold off and run down our industry, we are now waking up to the importance of actually making stuff. A big slice of our industry is now foreign companies who came to the UK to access the EU single market, they came on the understanding that they would always have unrestricted access to the biggest single market in the world.
The hope of those wanting out, is that we will maintain full access, but the reality is that if we do there will be no guarantees and we will have no influence over any decision making within the EU. It's already making some of our biggest manufacturers nervous, and don't forget that these same firms are the ones selling round the globe from the UK. If they ain't happy, if they don't see a steady pound and long term guaranteed access to the EU they'll get on the ferry to the EU and leave. Trust me, we ain't gonna leave the EU.
When David Cameron played his veto card recently, he was basically playing to a domestic audience, problem was he pissed off his EU partners and they called his bluff, he won't make that same mistake twice.
most immigrants didn't come here for the culture they came for the money
Well yeah, most immigrants come from the EU. Was the Empire built to learn about other cultures, or was it about exploitation and making money?
Oh How flippantly a person's views are dismissed when they don't concur
I didn't dismiss them, I was pointing out that there was nothing to comment on. No substance. Politicians, for example, love that sort of language, it sounds if they are saying something when in fact they have said nothing.
Hand wringing and accusations of BNP and EDL sympathies would abound, just as their names were raised earlier simply because I offered an opposing point of view.
I didn't accuse you of BNP or EDL sympathies. There has been quite a bit of support for right wing extremists and fascists recently on this forum, ie BNP, EDL etc, that's what I was referring to.
The infrastructure is crumbling and there aren't sufficient jobs, schools or houses.
That's down to economic miss management. We had the world's worst banker - Sir Fred the Shred, who was best friends with the worst chancellor in British history - Gordon Brown. We have a country still obsessed with privatisation, driving down wages terms and conditions, raising taxes for the poor and allowing the rich to pay nothing.
Immigrants and minorities always make a handy scapegoat, but immigrants and minorities are not to blame for the current economic mess that we have in the UK.
As for multicultural success, just look at team GB, and what an astounding success it was. I hope Wee Eck has taken note and is somehow finding real funding for Team Scotland for the Commonwealth Games in 2014. Bring on the real games, bring on Glasgow 2014!
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Point 1:
The in out EU referendum can take place without further ado. Call it Britain, call it the UK ( a laughable misnomer if ever there was one) call it whatever you like but the people of these islands who are subject of the same head of state are entitled to a referendum on their future. There need be no prior declaration of independence or anything like it, it is for the subjects of the queen who are inhabitants of these islands decide. Nowhere in English law does it require the permission of others to decide our fate.
As I mentioned earlier I genuinely do hope Scotland gains independence, although anyone with an abacus might then see problems on the horizon. I predict that Scottish youth will soon after be obliged to pay for their own education, and the small population of Scotland will be expected to pay more taxes to support it's own health and welfare costs. The next step will be a cap in hand to the EU, followed after rebuttal, by inviting Chinese investment or perhaps the offer of a naval base for big cash.
On the question of substance:
There is no substance in "There are no races just the human race" type statements. It's akin to saying there are no political boundaries, only geographical ones - yet there they are and so often under dispute. I was lucky enough to be born under English common law which bestows certain inalienable rights in perpetuity. One such right is that I, and only I, can relinquish them. A person cannot give them away on my behalf i.e. give away what is not his to give. That isn't a sound bite it is fact under English common law. Look it up, it's in the Magna Carta.
On Immigration.
You state that 'Most immigrants come from the EU.' Please state your sources for this information. I know it to be untrue. It is a deliberately misleading ploy to deflect the truth of the scale of None EU immigrants. I put it to you that the majority of immigrants are Asian and somali African.
On crumbling infrastructure.
Your reply seems to accept that it is in evidence and has become a problem, but merely goes on to blame the architects of our misery. I care not who what or when, (for now) but I do care that it exists, and it must be addressed. The immigrants are not a handy scapegoat, for the most part they are ballast. You commented that the Empire had exploited their lands and alluded that they are in turn doing the same to us. Newsflash! Queen Victoria is dead. We can't be expected to pay the price.
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Your reply seems to accept that it is in evidence and has become a problem, but merely goes on to blame the architects of our misery. I care not who what or when, (for now) but I do care that it exists, and it must be addressed. The immigrants are not a handy scapegoat, for the most part they are ballast. You commented that the Empire had exploited their lands and alluded that they are in turn doing the same to us. Newsflash! Queen Victoria is dead. We can't be expected to pay the price.
Can't agree. My country, for one, was devastated by economic embargo (sanctions) during the 90s. Then it was bombed. Then it was given credits at high interest rate which I knew we can't repay. It is being done all over the world. Rich are getting richer, buying practically whole countries for pieces of paper, backing it up with military supremacy. Look at Greece. Germans offered to BUY a whole island in order to repay Greece's debt.
And it's all democracy. I get to choose once every 4 years between 3 or 4 same, crooked politicians. And they will all, no matter which one I ellect, continue to sell out the whole country. Once a country gets too poor, people look for a way out, for a better life. They have every right to do so.
However, this is not fault of any "people", or nation. It's all politicians and big corporations. They are above all that. The only reason people in the "west" are left to live somehow in high standard i so that kids of those rich guys could grow in a more-less normal, healthy society. Why would anyone pay 10$ per hour, when Chinese have wits, manpower and ability to do it for 1$ per hour if even that much. For a short period of some 50sh years, while there was a present threat of communism taking over private capital, ordinary working class were allowed to live lika some sort of middle class. It is all diminishing now, no reason to keep them happy and well. Hope I'm wrong, but in a decade or two, it will all come to poor working class and a few rich guys - globaly. Middle class consisting of judges, police and the army to keep it all at nice and smooth.
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The in out EU referendum can take place without further ado.
As I've pointed out, it is not going to happen.
Oh, English law is not applicable in Scotland. And maybe just maybe you have grasped that England can't hold an in/out EU referendum?
As I mentioned earlier I genuinely do hope Scotland gains independence, although anyone with an abacus might then see problems on the horizon. I predict that Scottish youth will soon after be obliged to pay for their own education, and the small population of Scotland will be expected to pay more taxes to support it's own health and welfare costs. The next step will be a cap in hand to the EU, followed after rebuttal, by inviting Chinese investment or perhaps the offer of a naval base for big cash.
Whatever.
Firstly it's not about some mad rose tinted nationalism, it's about politics. Scotland once again has a UK government it did not vote for. We had 17 years years of Tory rule not that long ago that we did not vote for, and here we are again.
Economically, currently Scotland raises more in taxes for the exchequer than it receives back as the budget granted to it by the UK. You won't find any independent economic experts that will state that Scottish independence is not viable.
There is no substance in "There are no races just the human race" type statements. It's akin to saying there are no political boundaries, only geographical ones - yet there they are and so often under dispute. I was lucky enough to be born under English common law which bestows certain inalienable rights in perpetuity. One such right is that I, and only I, can relinquish them. A person cannot give them away on my behalf i.e. give away what is not his to give. That isn't a sound bite it is fact under English common law. Look it up, it's in the Magna Carta.
I still don't know what you are on about. What is it that you think 'they' are trying to take away from you, though you claim, whatever it is, they can't take it away anyway. How very interesting!
You state that 'Most immigrants come from the EU.' Please state your sources for this information. I know it to be untrue. It is a deliberately misleading ploy to deflect the truth of the scale of None EU immigrants. I put it to you that the majority of immigrants are Asian and somali African.
OK, I'm behind the times. Last year figures show Indians as the biggest number coming to the UK, they accounted for 12% of all immigrants. The surge from the EU in recent years has been reversed with more leaving than coming in.
Your reply seems to accept that it is in evidence and has become a problem, but merely goes on to blame the architects of our misery.
Well yeah. It wasn't difficult to see it coming. Brown's miracle economy was no miracle, it was built on rising asset prices and credit. Meanwhile you can be sure that our rich press barons will keep focusing on immigration and benefits scroungers etc etc. Anything to keep people from thinking about how we are really getting screwed.
Commonwealth games anyone?
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And it's all democracy. I get to choose once every 4 years between 3 or 4 same, crooked politicians. And they will all, no matter which one I ellect, continue to sell out the whole country. Once a country gets too poor, people look for a way out, for a better life. They have every right to do so.
Perhaps that's becuase too many people think that's what democracy is. A vote every few years.
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And it's all democracy. I get to choose once every 4 years between 3 or 4 same, crooked politicians. And they will all, no matter which one I ellect, continue to sell out the whole country. Once a country gets too poor, people look for a way out, for a better life. They have every right to do so.
Perhaps that's becuase too many people think that's what democracy is. A vote every few years.
It comes down to that. You can't really change anything - if that was possible, they wouldn't allow democracy. Tell me how I can stop a corrupt government? Find evidence, proove it in court, organize enough people to protest (and get arrested probably)?
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Slaninar I agree with you. The ills you describe are due to globalisation who's aim is the destruction of the nation state - which is what the EU is all about. This is why we must be free of it, despite VNA's protestations that it can't happen.
As I've pointed out, it is not going to happen.
Oh, English law is not applicable in Scotland. And maybe just maybe you have grasped that England can't hold an in/out EU referendum?
English law need not be applicable in Scotland, furthermore should Scotland become independent it will become irrelevant in this equation. Which is why I too hope for independence, a nice little side effect.
Firstly it's not about some mad rose tinted nationalism, it's about politics. Scotland once again has a UK government it did not vote for. We had 17 years years of Tory rule not that long ago that we did not vote for, and here we are again.
The thrust of your argument appears to be that Scotland labours under an unelected government? And presumably you think this unfair and wish to break free from the union?
I still don't know what you are on about. What is it that you think 'they' are trying to take away from you, though you claim, whatever it is, they can't take it away anyway. How very interesting!
I'll link this to the point above. Many feel that England, or Britain if you include the other parties are also ruled by a government it didn't vote for - namely the EU. The sham puppet parade in Westminster no longer make the majority of our laws, thus cannot be considered to be representative of the people.
Just as Scotland wants independence from the UK, the remaining parties want independence from the EU. The 'They' you inquire about are therefore the EU mandarins who follow the globalist agenda. What it is they wish to remove is our Sovereignty, the right to be governed by and of ourselves. As I said, the Magna Carta guarantees personal sovereignty in perpetuity, something that was done by our forefathers who had the foresight to understand that now and again tyrants will attempt to remove our freedoms.
Well yeah. It wasn't difficult to see it coming. Brown's miracle economy was no miracle, it was built on rising asset prices and credit
Indeed it was, and as you say it wasn't difficult to see it coming, yet no notice was taken of those that could see it coming. The same was true of mass immigration. Living in Britain in recent years has been akin to travelling on a coach which was intended for Blackpool, yet the driver decides all on his own that against the protestations of the passengers he'll take us to Bradford instead. When asked why he defied the will of the passengers the driver retorts;
"I don't think people want Blackpool so I'm not going to take you there, despite what it said on the front of the bus!"
Put succinctly, we saw the problems that mass immigration was causing but were ignored and smeared as racist. (Scotland absorbed only a tiny fraction of total immigration by the way - hardly affected in relative terms) We predicted that an economy built on borrowing was unsustainable but were dismissed as fools by the 'Iron Chancellor'. We now see the EU as a money pit and looming disaster and wish to leave, and are told we cannot by a chap that wants independence for Scotland for much the same reasons. Go figure!
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It comes down to that. You can't really change anything - if that was possible, they wouldn't allow democracy.
Then that's why we are focced. Democracy isn't just for once every 4 or 5 years, it's for every day. So perhaps the reason you are getting focced over is because nobody is prepared to engage in politics other than to hopelessly cast their vote every few years.
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The in out EU referendum can take place without further ado.
furthermore should Scotland become independent it will become irrelevant in this equation. Which is why I too hope for independence, a nice little side effect.
Ah so it can go ahead without further ado, as long as Scotland votes for independence in 2014. I see! But it still won't be an English referendum, now will it?
The ills you describe are due to globalisation who's aim is the destruction of the nation state
Globalisation is the new imperialism. It's the exploitation of empire without the need to govern. What you need to do is move the Global free market towards a Global market based on fair trade and common standards. Much like the EU.
Many feel that England, or Britain if you include the other parties are also ruled by a government it didn't vote for - namely the EU.
Can you explain how it is you feel that the EU rules you?
Put succinctly, we saw the problems that mass immigration was causing but were ignored and smeared as racist.
What problems?
We predicted that an economy built on borrowing was unsustainable but were dismissed as fools by the 'Iron Chancellor'.
Who is we?
We now see the EU as a money pit and looming disaster and wish to leave, and are told we cannot by a chap that wants independence for Scotland for much the same reasons.
I want Independence within the EU. The fear that the Tories may pull out of Europe (though it's way over egged and it won't happen for the reasons I've outlined) is yet another good reason for Scotland to leave the UK.
Commonwealth games anybody?
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It comes down to that. You can't really change anything - if that was possible, they wouldn't allow democracy.
Democracy isn't just for once every 4 or 5 years, it's for every day.
In reality it is. Masses are brainwashed. All the consumerism hype. Little solidarity, more and more estranged. They are trying to destroy even families. Look at the new laws that let kids report their parrents for "abuse" and have them imprisoned (at least in my country - you can no longer smack your kid when it does something stupid - I'm against real abuse, but this is ridiculous). All made so pepole don't look far ahead, don't realise how they're all being fucked and even if they do realise - can't get organized and do anything. Facebook, mobile phones with cameras and microphones - Orwell's 1984 at it's best. Official government is "elected", changeable, but they're all the same, none of them can get publicity and campaign money if they are going to try doing anything against those who hold 99% of the wealth.
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In reality it is. Masses are brainwashed. All the consumerism hype. Little solidarity, more and more estranged.
Yup exactly what I'm trying to say. We get the government and society we deserve.
Facebook, mobile phones with cameras and microphones
And the foc-u web site?
Except these things, as we have seen can also start revolutions against totalitarian dictators (whom have more often than not been supported by our democracy loving western governments)
It's a bit like the young lads at work who'll say to me "What's the union ever done for us?" I'll reply "what have you done for the union?"
I'll point out that the safe work environment, a decent rate of pay, welfare facilities, pensions etc etc that we enjoy (some of us, for now), are all becuase their forefathers organised and fought for their rights.
Today, apparently, all we can do is sit back and watch it slip away, maybe cast our vote once every four or five years. Or fight amongst ourselves over immigration and benefits cheats, maybe throwing what few pennies we have left on stupid lottery tickets as if it's the only way out of this pile of shite.
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Except these things, as we have seen can also start revolutions against totalitarian dictators (whom have more often than not been supported by our democracy loving western governments)
You really buy that "spontaneous people rising"? Hmm...
Today, apparently, all we can do is sit back and watch it slip away, maybe cast our vote once every four or five years. Or fight amongst ourselves over immigration and benefits cheats, maybe throwing what few pennies we have left on stupid lottery tickets as if it's the only way out of this pile of shite.
Agree... except.. lottery tickets?! What about beer and pretty women?!
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Beer makes women look pretty.
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also spare a thought for the brightest and best of our young people in the armed forces, currently overseas fighting and dying
Don't sound very bright to me.
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Beer makes women look pretty.
Amen to that............
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also spare a thought for the brightest and best of our young people in the armed forces, currently overseas fighting and dying
Don't sound very bright to me.
They are intelligent, disciplined, self motivated and brave young individuals. It may not sound bright to you, but perhaps the yardstick you measure them by is one of different criterea. By your reasoning the smart ones will be those hanging around your local street corner supping Cider I take it?
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Ah so it can go ahead without further ado, as long as Scotland votes for independence in 2014. I see! But it still won't be an English referendum, now will it?
I don't understand your fixation with the English/ Scottish thing? Scotland is part of the UK whether you like it or not, therefore a UK wide referendum can be held. Devolved governments are still subservient to Westminster. Scotland could of course could do a Nick Clegg style spitting out of the Dummy over future independence, which is why it would be nice to have them out of the equation.
What you need to do is move the Global free market towards a Global market based on fair trade and common standards. Much like the EU.
And what of the right to self determination? The EU is a federalist entity, and a corrupt one at that. Even without a referendum it would be enough to withhold all monetary contributions until such time as the books were signed off as balanced. That's a perfectly reasonable request don't you think? In these straightened times it would be remiss of us to do otherwise.
Can you explain how it is you feel that the EU rules you?
Certainly, where would you like me to begin? Anything from directives on fuel to the type of light bulbs available. Green energy quotas that push up the cost of energy and blight the landscape, Islamic terrorists we can't deport, murderers that have a right to a family life - the list goes on. Now, in return can you tell me how you feel the EU benefits me?
What problems regarding mass immigration?
Well I did say that Scotland took proportionally less immigrants than any other part of the union, and if you have to ask such a question then you're obviously unqualified to discuss it objectively. Maybe you should visit some of the area's that have experienced mass immigration over a so short a period to see for yourself? The problems that have arisen were inevitable, again it's a question of allowing passengers on a bus when the seats and standing room are full then acting surprised at the results. What problems you say? I see no ships?
Commonwealth games anybody?
I wonder if Scotland will be attending?
Olympics 2016 anybody?
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In reality it is. Masses are brainwashed. All the consumerism hype. Little solidarity, more and more estranged.
Yup exactly what I'm trying to say. We get the government and society we deserve.
Facebook, mobile phones with cameras and microphones
And the foc-u web site?
Except these things, as we have seen can also start revolutions against totalitarian dictators (whom have more often than not been supported by our democracy loving western governments)
It's a bit like the young lads at work who'll say to me "What's the union ever done for us?" I'll reply "what have you done for the union?"
I'll point out that the safe work environment, a decent rate of pay, welfare facilities, pensions etc etc that we enjoy (some of us, for now), are all becuase their forefathers organised and fought for their rights.
Today, apparently, all we can do is sit back and watch it slip away, maybe cast our vote once every four or five years. Or fight amongst ourselves over immigration and benefits cheats, maybe throwing what few pennies we have left on stupid lottery tickets as if it's the only way out of this pile of shite.
I'll finish by saying I entirely agree with all of the above post VNR (shock-Horror) :lol
Ultimately I think we both want social justice but approach it from different angles. In this country the people are governed by consent, and as previously mention the alternative we have in law (being English) is to withdraw that consent. It's perfectly lawful under common law. Slaninar look up 'Lawful rebellion'.
If successive governments continue to insist on bleeding the people white and over regulating every area of life, then I believe that unrest and civil disobedience will follow. The EU is flawed by fiscal irresponsibility and the tendency to micro manage our lives which is why I lean toward greater independence and the re asserting of national sovereignty.
Only achievable if the nation tears itself away from the X factor for a while to see what's actually being done to the.
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They are intelligent, disciplined, self motivated and brave young individuals. It may not sound bright to you, but perhaps the yardstick you measure them by is one of different criterea. By your reasoning the smart ones will be those hanging around your local street corner supping Cider I take it?
Individual? No, last time I checked, in the army one is just a number. Paid to do as told, kill or be killed, without thinking.
Intelligent? Doubtful, considering the profession of choice.
Disciplined, self motivated, brave... could be.
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Nazi's the lot of 'em.
Well, that's got that out of the way, and not before time ;)
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Scotland is part of the UK whether you like it or not, therefore a UK wide referendum can be held.
But you wanted an English one? Good to see you have finally accepted that that is simply not possible.
Devolved governments are still subservient to Westminster.
No they are not. Wrong again. Powers that are devolved cannot be overruled by Westminster. That Tony Blair basically did that to Jack McConnel got Labour wiped out when it came to the ballot box. Labour's historic long term rule in Scotland is in tatters.
Westminster also told Wee Eck - you will not be holding a referendum on Scottish Independence as you have no legal right to do so, such matters are not devolved to The Scottish Parliament. Wee Eck's response was, oh well, we'll just hold a consultative referendum and sort the legal stuff out later. Westminster quickly did a U-turn.
Certainly, where would you like me to begin? Anything from directives on fuel to the type of light bulbs available. Green energy quotas that push up the cost of energy and blight the landscape, Islamic terrorists we can't deport, murderers that have a right to a family life - the list goes on. Now, in return can you tell me how you feel the EU benefits me?
So pretty minor stuff. Perhaps just you've been reading the Daily Mail or something. So for the sake of getting out of the excellent Human Rights Charter, a few lightbulbs, and some green energy targets that ain't enforceable (non of which we objected to or were enforced on us) you are going to turn the UK's back on open access to the world's biggest single market, and watch half our industry pack up and move across the channel. Nice one.
But I wouldn't worry, I'm happy to stick a very large bet on the UK staying in the EU forever and a day. Sure there's danger at the moment, self interested wealthy loonies trying to get us out and they are finding influence, but the reality is, for the UK pulling out of the EU, it'll make the Euro crises look like a storm in the tea cup from our perspective.
Well I did say that Scotland took proportionally less immigrants than any other part of the union, and if you have to ask such a question then you're obviously unqualified to discuss it objectively.
Really! How nice of you to let me know so. Under the dispersal programme Scotland has taken quite a large slice of the UK's Asylum Seekers over the last 10 years or so. I've been involved with campaigning on refugee rights and around integration projects for quite some time. One thing I've learned is that community cohesion and integration doesn't happen by itself, you have to make it happen.
But anyway you didn't answer my question. Why am I bothering?
I wonder if Scotland will be attending?
Well we are hosting them.
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Yawn.....
Can't you take this elsewhere if you want to fight?
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Ultimately I think we both want social justice but approach it from different angles. In this country the people are governed by consent, and as previously mention the alternative we have in law (being English) is to withdraw that consent. It's perfectly lawful under common law. Slaninar look up 'Lawful rebellion'.
The day civil disobedience and protest is not tolerated, well it's generally a good sign that your democracy is dead. Check out what's going down in Russia right now.
Not that to influence government or policy you have to do either, but sometimes it is the only way. It is however in this climate of fear and high security, intense surveillance and multi-national very conservative right wing employers increasingly difficult for people to stand up and openly express their concerns.
Add that to three political parties in a UK sense that all look the same, say and do roughly the same things. Well you do wonder about the health of our democracy in a UK wide sense. We've also failed spectacularly to kill off the first past the post system that has driven us into this centre right straight jacket. Add in the money that the big three parties (though it'll be back to two shortly) have, and what hope is there for real political democracy. That's another reason for me wanting Independence, democracy in the UK is dying on it's feet. And it's got now't to do with EU membership.
that unrest and civil disobedience will follow.
It may come due to social injustice, no jobs, no community, no hope, an ever increasing gap between those with and those without. Company directors stealing ever bigger piles of cash, and making sure that not just they don't pay tax but their company pays no corporation tax, while they keep screwing their employees terms and conditions, as well as drawing up black lists of potential 'trouble makers'. Add in to that a total disconnect with politics, two big parties that are both the same. And sure, at some point the lid could come flying off the pressure cooker.
Some in the EU may dream of a federal Europe, but the reality was it could never be, we were always far too diverse for that, and now that dream is in absolute tatters. It may be time to review and reform the EU, but dismantle it or pull out - never. And the EU is most certainly not the cause of our current woes, it's a factor, but not the cause and getting out will only make the UK's current woes considerably worse, and then some.
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Beer makes women look pretty.
what! even scottish women :lol
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But you wanted an English one? Good to see you have finally accepted that that is simply not possible.
Obfuscation on your part. I stated that I wanted an in/out referendum plain and simple, along it appears, with a frighteningly large percentage of the population if the wriggling of the political classes is anything to go by. So you now admit that a referendum is possible having said it wasn't?
No they are not. Wrong again. Powers that are devolved cannot be overruled by Westminster. Blah blah... Westminster quickly did a U-turn.
So you are saying that to overrule the devolved parliament would be unconstitutional is that it?
So pretty minor stuff. Perhaps just you've been reading the Daily Mail or something.
Ah! We're back with the attempted stereotyping are we. No I don't read the daily mail actually not that it matters. Yes pretty minor stuff, like incitement to murder, terrorism, overcrowded Hospitals and schools, crippling fuel bills, attacks on christianity - you know the sort of thing, don't know what all the fuss is about really.
I'm happy to stick a very large bet on the UK staying in the EU forever and a day
Will you be betting that in Greek Euro's, Italian Portugese or Spanish?
Under the dispersal programme Scotland has taken quite a large slice of the UK's Asylum Seekers over the last 10 years or so. I've been involved with campaigning on refugee rights and around integration projects for quite some time.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r216/Old-Nail/2012-08-19_210533.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r216/Old-Nail/2012-08-19_210609.jpg)
Wrong again. ;)
But anyway you didn't answer my question. Why am I bothering?
Because you can't help yourself, it comes across in the tone of your posts.
The day civil disobedience and protest is not tolerated, well it's generally a good sign that your democracy is dead.
http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/roger-hayes-arrested-tried-secret-court-imprisoned (http://foc-u.co.uk/Roger hayes)
Some in the EU may dream of a federal Europe, but the reality was it could never be, we were always far too diverse for that, and now that dream is in absolute tatters. It may be time to review and reform the EU, but dismantle it or pull out - never. And the EU is most certainly not the cause of our current woes, it's a factor, but not the cause and getting out will only make the UK's current woes considerably worse, and then some.
I'm glad you are finally admitting what I've been saying all along. Now the only thing that remains is to let the people decide if they wish to be in or out rather than persons like yourself tell them it's in for their own good. It's called democracy, you never know it might even catch on. :)
It's been fun, enjoy the Commonwealth games, hosted by Scotland huh? Ahh! So that's why no-one appears to care.
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I stated that I wanted an in/out referendum plain and simple, along it appears, with a frighteningly large percentage of the population if the wriggling of the political classes is anything to go by. So you now admit that a referendum is possible having said it wasn't?
No you stated you wanted an in/out EU referendum in England. I stated correctly that that simply is not possible.
So you are saying that to overrule the devolved parliament would be unconstitutional is that it?
Nope. No you can't over rule devolved powers.
Yes pretty minor stuff, like incitement to murder, terrorism, overcrowded Hospitals and schools, crippling fuel bills, attacks on christianity - you know the sort of thing, don't know what all the fuss is about really.
And where does the EU come into all this?
Umm your chart is not concerning asylum seekers. I was referring to asylum seekers.
However putting that aside it shows Scotland having 5% of "foreign-born population" If you take into account Scotland's population, and the increase in recent years, it's a fair figure. You have just shot down your own arguement.
Another chart on that site suggests about 250,000 in Scotland. And I hazard a guess that those will be concentrated in the central belt particularly Glasgow. Oh look your chart shows over 300,000 plus a 133% increase in the last 15 years, the second highest in the UK! And little in the way of problems! Oh, I wonder how we managed that!
Because you can't help yourself, it comes across in the tone of your posts.
Thank-you. Still not answering the question though, are you?
It's called democracy, you never know it might even catch on.
Yup and as you know we don't hold referendums on every issue. And you have yet to come up with one valid reason why we should leave the EU. (http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/GARETH%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif)
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Beer makes women look pretty.
what! even scottish women :lol
Is it really that bad? I heard stories about british women, but thought they were just rumours.
(http://www.castropolis-drunkenmasters.de/Grafiken/Beer,%20helping%20ugly%20people...jpg)
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Not quite the can of worms I expected to open but it'll do :lurk
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VNA I haven’t read your latest post. I omitted to read it not because I think you have nothing to say, but for the sake of other forum members I don’t wish to perpetuate this discussion ad nauseum. Had I read your post I would once again feel compelled to answer it.
Regardless of several time consuming posts on both our parts no doubt our individual opinions remain as before. I must say that I struggled with the contradictions within your points of view, but such is the complexity of the subject matter I suppose. Some of the points I struggled with was you outlook on diversity. If I understand correctly your position is that diversity, inclusion, and multiculturalism is a good thing. We must all learn from each other’s points of view you say, unless you happen to be one of the Four Million 275,000 Britons that read a certain daily newspaper wherein you become a person with a tainted view that has no validity. Had that readership been an ethnic minority you would no doubt be scandalised by such a suggestion?
You speak of having to work together to achieve cohesion but want for yourself a separate Scotland? You rail against imperialism but look forward to the Commonwealth games – itself a legacy of imperialism. You appear to be aware of the dangers of globalism, which you quite rightly label the ‘New Imperialism’ yet fail to understand that you are engaged in its work. I ask for unity of purpose, you ask to celebrate diversity. The figures on Immigration show only legal Immigrants, there are in addition an estimated 1,000,000 illegal immigrants and rising. I sincerely doubt they are all hiding in Scotland, which means the rest of us carry the additional burden you appear not to see, and which in turn explains our concern.
The maxim ‘Divide and conquer’ is usually attributed to Julius Ceasar , but it holds true as a political maxim throughout the ages. In the trade union movement Unity is strength, therefore to subjugate a people one first needs to create division. With reference the EU you noted that we are ‘too diverse to unite’, more so as a nation with the addition of many additional cultures and factions - that way lies sectarianism.
In politics they have a trick which they refer to as the Cause-effect-solution ploy. You have seen it used recently with the Blair Iraq war. A Weapons of mass destruction lie leads to Invasion of Iraq = Cause. Mass immigration/ terrorist attacks follow on UK soil = Effect. Tighten up security, greater loss of personal liberties ensues, increased powers of government snooping and surveillance = offered as a Solution.Had the government proposed those increased draconian measures of detention, snooping, and surveillance without step 1 and 2 the public would not have accepted them, but instigate step 1 and 2 and the public feel that such measures in step 3 are necessary and freely give away yet more of their liberty.
http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/roger-hayes-arrested-tried-secret-court-imprisoned (http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/roger-hayes-arrested-tried-secret-court-imprisoned)
http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/update-arrest-roger-hayes (http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/update-arrest-roger-hayes)
[/size]You commented to the effect that the day civil disobedience results in imprisonment will be the day that democracy dies. Above are links (hope they work) I provide to show that is exactly what is happening in Britain and more so in the EU where scientific writers and historians are being imprisoned for ‘questioning’ the official line. For merely asking to see the supporting evidence of an official claim they are imprisoned. An Orwellian prelude of things to come, or perhaps no matter as they may be daily Mail readers?I’ll end by saying that having re-read my last comment about people not caring about the Commonwealth games due to it being in Scotland I noted that it didn’t come across in the way it was intended, but having posted there is no edit function. I actually meant that the desirability of watching a sporting event in Scotland (due to oft inclement weather) wasn’t something that would fill me with joy, it was not meant to sound as a slur so my apologies if it came across that way.Slaninar - the cure is not beer - Just find a good looking woman in the first place! . [/font] :lol [/font][/size] [/color]
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Jesus man, I thought the Olympics were great!
That's my conclusion,,,,,
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the cure is not beer - Just find a good looking woman in the first place! . :lol
I still have to get HER drunk. :rolleyes
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Beer makes women look pretty.
what! even scottish women :lol
Why do you think they invented* Whisky
*assuming they did, can't be arsed to wiki it
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the cure is not beer - Just find a good looking woman in the first place! . :lol
I still have to get HER drunk. :rolleyes
:lol :lol
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I live in London (normally, like...) and I think pretty much every one of my friends is a non-UK-born type.
Italians
Saffers
French
Norwegians
Belgians
Australians
Germans
Brazilians
Polish
And really, they make the place brilliant. The world is a much better place when people aren't all the same.
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VNA I haven’t read your latest post.
I stopped right there with yours :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
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Fairy nuff. :lol :lol
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also spare a thought for the brightest and best of our young people in the armed forces, currently overseas fighting and dying
Don't sound very bright to me.
By your reasoning the smart ones will be those hanging around your local street corner supping Cider I take it?
Not at all and I'm not sure how (or why) anyone could read my post and draw that conclusion.
The last time I checked, young people had more than the two options of, being abusively drunk, or killing humans for a living.
The majority of society live their lives by simply getting an education, getting a job, contributing positively to society and raising children that will go on to do the same.
By any measure, THAT'S the brightest and best way for anyone to live their life. :)