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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: HarryHornby on 28 August 2015, 09:08:06 am
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Hi All,
A couple of questions today, if I may, all related.
The cover at the back of the swing arm where the adjuster nuts are is loose and rattles, is this ok? I recently adjusted the chain and it was ok then. I'm guessing the axle has moved since adjustment or is this cover being a bit loose totally normal? It's the cover on the brake side of the swing arm
Second, when I adjusted the chain I noticed that the washer between the axle bolt and the swing arm on both sides of the swing arm has pushed in the metal where the adjuster marks are, it looks like both washers are too small. Therefore, what's the diameter of both washers please?
Cheers
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It's not so much a cover, but actually the plate that secures the wheel in place to prevent the wheel going out of line, so no, neither side should be loose or have any play at all.
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That's what I thought, but it was tight when I adjusted the chain so something has moved which, given the bending of the swingarm where the washer pushes tight I'm even more convinced that the washers are moving.
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UPDATE.....
I think I know why the washer is pushing in the metal (the gap where the axle runs through the swing arm) the washer on the brake side is saucer shaped, so when I tighten it it's not totally flat against the swing arm. It needs a new one. Does anyone have one?
So, removing the rear axle...... is it as simple as removing brake caliper then banging the axle all the way through and out the other side while catching the falling wheel? That's how it looks in Haynes.
Cheers
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If removing axle to change washers and adjusters no need to remove caliper or wheel. Just remove axle enough to clear one side and replace whatever then use socket bar in place of axle as you remove it rest of the way out
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Note the axle spacers between the swingarm and the outer bearing spacer are not symmetric I mean look at Haynes the left and right one are different shape and depth. Mine has been swaped the wrong way and I fixed that when changed the chain and the sprockets.
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OK, I got a new washer for the offside of the axle from a chap on here. Took axle out and put the new washer on and when I looked it looked like this
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af157/harryhornby/IMG_2070.jpg)
The one on the nearside sits totally flush, surely it shouldn't be bending like this?
I used my torque wrench (it's not the most expensive one, I got it from Argos) a few years ago and have used it for my rear axle for years (that's why I bought it). I never had a problem with my first FZS600.
Anyway, I did it up to 117Nm and this is the result. Doesn't look good does it? :( Do you reckon it's ok to ride? Obviously I need to sort it but how, not sure.
Cheers
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117Nm........you sure thats correct, sounds a bit high to me....
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that's what it says in haynes
what do you do your one to red?
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yes I've done mine to 117nm as per the manual too.
But your does not look right. Are you sure the torque wrench is calibrated?
Here how mine looks:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2q208sn.jpg)
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Dont use a torque wrench on the wheel spindle, iam old remember so do it by feel ;)....just out of interest see if you can undo it with the spanner and extension in the bikes tool kit....is the swinging arm beneath the washer distorted at all ?.
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Yep you've got a bit of plastic deformation there. Not to worry mines the same albeit not as bad as yours. The nut head's nicely rounded and a bit rusty too, might be time to replace the axle. You can't complain- she's getting on a bit in years. :lol Like red98 I also do it by feel.
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Val, the torque wrench is a challenge one from Argos, has always been ok in the past, I always release the tension before putting away but I've never had it callibrated.
Red, yes the bits above and below the gap on the swing arm where the axle passes are distorted, were like this before I started fiddling. The whole point of the fiddling was because I noticed my washer looked like a dinner plate, but nothing like it does now.
I don't think the washer I got off the chap on here was much cop though. It was straight enough (unlike my old one) but it had deep pitting where the bolt on previous bike had pushed into it. I turned it around so that part was agains the swing arm, I'm guessing it's thinner and weaker because of the deformation and so buckled worse than the old one.
Celtic dog, I was thinking new axle too, but I have to do everything on such a tight budget I doubt I could afford that, I tried to do it cheap and failed ha ha
I think I will take it all apart again but put the old washer on the other way round, see how that goes. I'll only have until it gets dark tomorrow though, Saturday is fully booked up. Don't want to miss another fazer ride out :-(
grrrrrr
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so mine is done to 112Nm, i did not feel happy with that extra 5Nm :lol
I am not sure why the washer on yours is bowed, has it been over tightened in the past?
I ask as i have in the past over tightened a bolt and the washer was the first thing to go....it bent....
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My axel washers are like that and im not worried, I use the feel factor.. 30years of swinging tools. Your end plates should not rattle... I ignore the alignment marks and measure the distance from the swing arm to rim... and a long straight edge to front wheel
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The 'washer' is more for alignment purposes, be grateful your wheel is firmly tightened up and straight, that's all that counts.
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from memory :rolleyes :rolleyes iam old remember :\ ....the two chain adjusters that slot into the end of the swinging arm,they only go in one way but it is possible to fit them the wrong way round,different shape and size,parhaps the larger size is to support the inside face of the swinging arm.....just a thought.......yep,that washer does look well used unlike VAL`s...i`ll have a look in my spares pile might have a replacement spindle,washer & nut ,if i find it i`ll bring it with me on sunday ;)
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I get that Darrsi, but, if it's bent like this surely it's putting strain on the edges of the gap where the axle goes through the swing arm, surely it should be flush to avoid damage to this area.
I'll speak to my local stealer and see how much a new axle is, couldn't see one on wemoto
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from memory :rolleyes :rolleyes iam old remember :\ ....the two chain adjusters that slot into the end of the swinging arm,they only go in one way but it is possible to fit them the wrong way round,different shape and size,parhaps the larger size is to support the inside face of the swinging arm.....just a thought.......yep,that washer does look well used unlike VAL`s...i`ll have a look in my spares pile might have a replacement spindle,washer & nut ,if i find it i`ll bring it with me on sunday ;)
I think I get where you are comming from, I didn't take those out. Can you see the difference without removing them?
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Val, the torque wrench is a challenge one from Argos, has always been ok in the past, I always release the tension before putting away but I've never had it callibrated.
Red, yes the bits above and below the gap on the swing arm where the axle passes are distorted, were like this before I started fiddling. The whole point of the fiddling was because I noticed my washer looked like a dinner plate, but nothing like it does now.
I don't think the washer I got off the chap on here was much cop though. It was straight enough (unlike my old one) but it had deep pitting where the bolt on previous bike had pushed into it. I turned it around so that part was agains the swing arm, I'm guessing it's thinner and weaker because of the deformation and so buckled worse than the old one.
Celtic dog, I was thinking new axle too, but I have to do everything on such a tight budget I doubt I could afford that, I tried to do it cheap and failed ha ha
I think I will take it all apart again but put the old washer on the other way round, see how that goes. I'll only have until it gets dark tomorrow though, Saturday is fully booked up. Don't want to miss another fazer ride out :-(
grrrrrr
If you reverse the washer it's probably only going to flatten then dish itself with the tightness of the spindle nut. My 600 was the same so think it's normal, if you're happy with tightness of spindle, alignment and chain tension, just leave it and deal with the real issue which is the sliders/end plates. With wheel tight, nip up the first adjusting nut by one or two flats each side. I find one turn is too slack and two is too tight so i go one and a half, in other words a flat to a flat then to the next corner. Just be sure to use two spanners to lock the two nuts together and there shouldn't be any later slackness.
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The solid part of the slider face inwards. Are Vals and anutz's washers new and still to achieve the dished shape, are they yamaha washers or just washers?
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To Harry
The sprocket carrier bearing and drive side rear wheel bearing collapsed on my bike last year.... the bike had done around 78,000 at that point.
I still wonder whether over-tightening the nut many times was the cause..... they could have simply worn out of course.
In any event I wouldn't over-tighten the rear axle nut.
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i second that, the fact the washer is bent to me anyway means it has been overtightened....
regardless- make sure its sound and you have no doubts....its not worth any risk with that component...it is after all keeping the rear wheel where is should be :lol
if it was me i would get a new axel and washer as well as the nut etc...
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Yep you've got a bit of plastic deformation there. Not to worry mines the same albeit not as bad as yours. The nut head's nicely rounded and a bit rusty too, might be time to replace the axle. You can't complain- she's getting on a bit in years. :lol Like red98 I also do it by feel.
"...she's getting on in years. :lol Like red98..."
Bit harsh....... :rollin
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My guess is that at some stage someone without a torque wrench has either used an extension bar, stood on the ratchet or hammered the nut home.
There's not much you can do about it now, and it's not like you can tighten it any more into the wheel.
The swingarm is obviously a tad concaved, but as long as you don't go past the torque setting ever again it 'should' be fine.
That washer is spreading the load over the swingarm, so even though it's a little bent it should still align okay.
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OK UPDATE
I've phoned my local stealer - a new washer is £5.50 so I've got one on order. The axle was £45 excluding all washers and nuts (I can't justify that cost at the moment) plus mine seems straight and works fine.
So, 2 things now. Bodge the current washer to get me to Brighton on Sunday!!!
Work out what 117Nm on my torque wrench actually is..... but like I said, I've never had this issue before, plus I had never adjusted the chain myself since I've owned this bike. It's had 2 rear tyres fitted by two different garages though, I'd like to think they are doing it up to the correct torque.
So I'm thinking my wrench is prob about right, I reckon the washer that was on we getting knackered from 14 years on the bike. I reckon the one I bought from a chap on here was even more shit than the one I took off.
So moral of the story, stop being a tight cunt by paying £6 inc postage for 2 washers of unknown quality that are crap and just pay the £5.50 for a brand new one in the first place, because it's now cost me £11.50 :\
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The thing is Harry, if your swing arm is indented, which i'm pretty sure it is, then the new washer is highly likely to bend and take the same shape of it as well.
The damage to the swing arm is already done, personally i would just make sure the wheel is aligned, tighten it up correctly and forget about it.
A flat washer on an indented non flat surface WILL bend once tightened. :\
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oh bollocks..... I was all happy until I read your reply!! :\ at least it will be a SHINY, bent washer LOL :sun
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You could try putting a narrower diameter washer underneath the new one to balance it out, but firstly it'll probably muller it eventually and secondly i doubt you'll find one in the right size needed anyway.
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I dont think that the swing arm is dented from looking at the picture and if it is I wonder if a good thick stainless steel washer would be less likely to bend
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2 washers???? :b as long as the nut on the other end had plenty of thread that would be ok?
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2 washers???? :b as long as the nut on the other end had plenty of thread that would be ok?
I think there is enough at the other end but as darrsi said I think a smaller washer under would just put even more pressure and dent the swing arm.
What about a steal box section inside the swing arm to prevent any extra denting
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I dont think that the swing arm is dented from looking at the picture and if it is I wonder if a good thick stainless steel washer would be less likely to bend
Of course the swing arm is indented, there's now way you would curve a washer of that thickness on a true flat surface.
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it is dented.
was like it before I touched it!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL11ZIUa5jU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL11ZIUa5jU)
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I dont think that the swing arm is dented from looking at the picture and if it is I wonder if a good thick stainless steel washer would be less likely to bend
Of course the swing arm is indented, there's now way you would curve a washer of that thickness on a true flat surface.
Yep I understand all of that of course, but what I said was the picture dosen't look like the arm is dished, makes sense that it is but it dosen't look it from the picture.
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take the axle out and get a pic :lol
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I dont think that the swing arm is dented from looking at the picture and if it is I wonder if a good thick stainless steel washer would be less likely to bend
Of course the swing arm is indented, there's now way you would curve a washer of that thickness on a true flat surface.
Yep I understand all of that of course, but what I said was the picture dosen't look like the arm is dished, makes sense that it is but it dosen't look it from the picture.
Are you looking at the correct picture?
It clearly looks dented in Harry's picture, plus, he just said it was dented.
I reckon it's dented. :pokefun
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It shouldn't get any worse as long as you don't go over the torque level.
The new washer will certainly be worth putting on anyway.
There is always the strong possibility that copper grease was used and totally fucked up the torque setting by whoever did it.
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i have had a bad time with torque wrenches and copper grease when i first started using them - now i am ok, but as Darrsi said, the use of copper grease does throw off the torques you use!
I have literally sheared off a few bolts before and had to drill them out ( successfully unlike the engine stud )
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Red, I think you've hit on something re the adjusters inside the swing arm. Can you guys pop out and see if you can work out which picture your bike resembles most.
Pic one, this is how they are currently inside the swing arm
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af157/harryhornby/IMG_2072.jpg)
Pic two this shows it (the way it's installed) but outside the bike
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af157/harryhornby/IMG_2075.jpg)
Pic 3 - this is the adjuster put in the other way round
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af157/harryhornby/IMG_2073.jpg)
Pic 4 is the other way round but off the bike
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af157/harryhornby/IMG_2074.jpg)
Which wa round do they go? Have they been put in wrong by the previous owner or was it right all along?
Cheers
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The first way :thumbup
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SWEET, thank you :-) It was correct in first place but glad I checked.
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That swing arm looks dished to me !
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That swing arm looks dished to me !
:rollin
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Sorry harry, just found what I thought was going to be a rear axle but its a swingarm axle :o...told you I was old........
so, had a look at my 600 and my washer is dished a bit too, think its an age thingy, iam an expert at age thingys ;).....your new ,new washer should sort things out :thumbup...also took a piccie of the chain adjusters just to confirm whats already been said...
sorry to let you down, there is some good news however, whilst I was rummaging I came across a little gem I had forgotten I had, great practical accessory for you bike....its yours matey, I'll bring it with me on sunday ;)
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Shit it's not a tow bar is it, Red???????
Or a SAFE!!!???? :eek :eek :eek
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NO.....................its both :rollin..........towbar and trailer would be good for you, fill the trailer with new washers and off yoh go, no worries ;)
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So now I dont get how it can get dished when there is a solid adjuster behind it, there has to be a little gap so to insert the adjuster but surly not so much that you can crush the swing arm.
Could you hammer in the adjuster with a shim piece of metal between the adjuster and inside swing arm and then tighten with a new washer and flatten out the swing arm dish, take all out and add a bigger shim to prevent new dishing, would need a sacrificial adjuster as it would get a knackered thread from hammering
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So now I dont get how it can get dished when there is a solid adjuster behind it, there has to be a little gap so to insert the adjuster but surly not so much that you can crush the swing arm.
Could you hammer in the adjuster with a shim piece of metal between the adjuster and inside swing arm and then tighten with a new washer and flatten out the swing arm dish, take all out and add a bigger shim to prevent new dishing, would need a sacrificial adjuster as it would get a knackered thread from hammering
It's a steel axle bolt but aluminium swing arm that has probably been severely overtightened at some stage.
Shit happens! :\
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The first way :thumbup
SWEET, thank you :-) It was correct in first place but glad I checked.
Negative Pic 3 is the right way according to the service manual, so it was not correct in the first place hence the bend washer, the flat part of the spacer is outside and that way when you tighten the outside wall of the swingarm has more support, the inside bit is actually facing the internal spacer which has smaller surface anyway so no point to have bigger surface there IMO
(http://i59.tinypic.com/256gsx0.jpg)
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I'll say it again, the washer is bent due to severe overtightening!
Look at Red98's photo of the swingarm and you'll clearly see that the nut is smaller than any side of the adjuster plate, so in theory it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference which way round the adjuster plate was as far as the washer is concerned.
By being overtightened the washer will be forced to go any place that is free space, in this case the gap which is the metal thickness of the swingarm.
The washer couldn't really have physically got any worse as there's simply nowhere else for it to go.
As for which way round the adjuster goes it would make more sense to me to have the main central force of a torqued up nut pushing from a smaller area onto a bigger one, plus it would be much more important to keep the sprocket side flat and true which is why the need for the bigger footprint on the adjuster on the inside.
So i'm gonna boldy say whoever did that service manual drawing probably went for a liquid lunch and had one too many cups of Japanese Sake back in the day. :b
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clear as mud,that put you mind at rest HARRY ?.... :lol ......iam with DARRSI on this one,the surface areas on both sides of the chain adjuster is big enough to cover the washer/nut area,not checked the swing arm hole size though,parhaps we have stumbled on a design fault.......new washer should sort things out,still think 117NM is a bit much,did you try undoing the nut with the bikes tool kit,the length of the tool was designed with torque setting in mind,be interesting to find out .....
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Guys easy way to stop the rattle on the chain adjusters. When you have You have done you adjusting and are ready to do up your axle to the right torque settings put a spanner in between you chain and sprocket at the top and pull the wheel towards you gently. This will pull everything nice and tight.
Hope that helps some what.
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Had a closer look at my washers and noticed one side has a letter "N" stamped into it and the other side has a "O" stamped into it --- whats that then ?
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Had a closer look at my washers and noticed one side has a letter "N" stamped into it and the other side has a "O" stamped into it --- whats that then ?
Is it possible to mean Nearside and Offside, but than the markins should be swapped on the opposite sides for each spacer and also we'll need to know which is left and right?? :eek
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What if you're in Europe? :lol
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Had a closer look at my washers and noticed one side has a letter "N" stamped into it and the other side has a "O" stamped into it --- whats that then ?
Is it possible to mean Nearside and Offside, but than the markins should be swapped on the opposite sides for each spacer and also we'll need to know which is left and right?? :eek
The washers are indeed fitted N= on the nearside and O on the ofside
Both measure 44mm diameter I have tried to measure the thickness in situ with the vernier caliper depth gauge but keep getting a different reading every time but I think the nearside (nut and thread side ) is 3mm but the offside fixed nut seems to be MAYBE 2.75mm but what would be the point of that - why not both 3mm. My measuring could be wrong.
And if both are 44 mm then why have a near and offside preference.
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the nearside washer does not go over the axle, the difference seems to minimal, but only the off side washer will slide down the axle.