Post by: mark g on 26 July 2015, 06:43:55 pm
Post by: sadlonelygit on 26 July 2015, 07:20:44 pm
yes
yes
Post by: mark g on 26 July 2015, 07:40:21 pm
Cheers buddy
Post by: PaulSmith on 27 July 2015, 10:48:13 am
My first kit was a cheap and nasty Chinese one from ebay that cost about £25 and the bulbs only lasted about six months, but it was still the absolute dogs dangly bits. It was a car kit so the cables for one bulb were much longer then for the other so finding somewhere to tidy them out of the way was a bit of a nuisance. Do not go for the high K values as apart from looking naff (IMHO) and attracting unnecessary attention, they simply do not put as much visible light on the road. I would recommend bulbs between 4500K and 6000K and if you go for the H4-3 type kits then you get normal and full beam. (An electro-magent in the bulb housing physically moves the bulb from one position to the other and back.)
You do not have to make any permanent changes to the bike if you don't want to so you can put it back to standard when you sell it on, just run one power line from the battery to the back of the clocks.
One thing to watch out for are the H4 bulbs with the billet looking aluminium body such as these http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Car-35W-HID-H4-Conversion-Hi-Lo-Beam-White-Headlight-Light-Bulbs-Lamp-New-/350834496203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51af5d92cb (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Car-35W-HID-H4-Conversion-Hi-Lo-Beam-White-Headlight-Light-Bulbs-Lamp-New-/350834496203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51af5d92cb) because the body does not disconnect from the reflector so you can not get them through the rubbers to seal them in place.
If you are a belt and braces type guy, you can carry a standard H4 bulb under the seat and if shit happens (typically the power line from the battery to the ballasts being too skinny and/or a connector coming loose) you can have it fitted and be on your way in 5 minutes, no tools required.
Post by: mark g on 27 July 2015, 08:57:21 pm
Post by: PaulSmith on 28 July 2015, 10:49:44 am
One thing I forgot to mention is that you should pick up some LED side lights. The originals start to look a really naff tobacco stain colour when the HIDs are fitted.
Post by: mark g on 28 July 2015, 08:27:33 pm
Post by: b1k3rdude on 28 July 2015, 09:48:33 pm
If you want more light and not dazzle other road users you could do what I have done -
- http://www.bikevis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1088.0 (http://www.bikevis.com/forum/index.php?topic=1088.0)
Just tow them down a bit so as to be no higher than the top of the dip beam and you good to go, these LED spots only use 10W/0.66A each and the pair put out the same amount of light a a single HID bulb (1800lumens). The only issue is price @£95 per pair, but that said I have a set ofn my Bandit and Fazer and both sets are 2+ years old. HID kits I bought in the past barely make it paste a year before either the bulb or the ballast dies.
(http://www.bikevis.com/images/gallery/yamaha_fzs1000_2/fzs1000_1.jpg)
(http://www.bikevis.com/images/gallery/yamaha_fzs1000_2/fzs1000_2.jpg)
Here is a BMW rider with a set of CREE's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQnTpifvitg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQnTpifvitg)
There are other makes of CREE based spotlights, so your not limited to Bikviz -
- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cree+motorcycle+spot+lights&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=u-q3VZLOHYrWeLe8v-AP (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cree+motorcycle+spot+lights&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=u-q3VZLOHYrWeLe8v-AP)
Post by: PaulSmith on 29 July 2015, 10:42:10 am
It's been said before, H4 HID kits just don't provide an even remotely accurate beam pattern. ...
It has been said before, and it was wrong before, and if you say it again, you will be wrong, again.
The reflector reflects the light from a point source in a pattern decided by its designers. It does not know or care how that light is generated, only if it is in the right place. You can use a tungsten, halogen, bi-xenon or HID bulbs, fuck you can even use a carbide lamp if you can find a way to not melt the plastic, and it will not make a difference to the pattern of light reflected.
Post by: Stormin on 30 July 2015, 01:31:23 am
Post by: PaulSmith on 30 July 2015, 11:58:46 am
HID's are illegal on any vehicle unless they are self levelling. Instant fail for MOT and fixed penalty from the long arm of the law. Been there,done it and paid the fine!!
Wrong, wrong and wrong. Who comes up with these things?
I verified this with a sargeant I know in the Met who is currently serving in traffic; The long arm of the law do not and can not issue fixed penalty notices for HID headlights that are not fitted with self-levelling mechanisms because the long arm of the law are not trained to be road-side vehicle inspectors capable of determining if you actually have a self-levelling system fitted let alone determine whether or not it is working. Self levelling systems are not specifically mentioned for motorbikes in the MOT manuals but for all vehicles, IF fitted, it needs to work.
Quote
Vehicles equipped with High Intensity Discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system.Where such systems are fitted, they must work; however, it is accepted that it may not be possible to readily determine the functioning of self levelling systems. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt must be given.So if they don't have to be there, and even if they are, MOT testers cant tell if they are working, how the foc are the plod expected to be able to?
The third popular old wives tale concerns scatter and sparkle when HID's are fitted. The beam patterns required are described in http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_180.htm (http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_180.htm) and they make no reference to sparkle. As stated before, a reflector is designed so that light coming from a particular point is reflected to produce the desired pattern. Any light outside that pattern is a result of imperfections in production and errors and compromises in the design. How the light is generated DOES NOT AFFECT THE PATTERN OR THE SCATTER. In other words, your reflector will pass an MOT, or it will fail it, regardless of the bulb that is in it.
Back to the plod. The plod are able to issue fixed penalty notices if your headlights are clearly pointing in the wrong direction or if they have a blueish tinge. The motorcycle requirements of the MOT: http://www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_120.htm (http://www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_120.htm) specify that the light source FOR THE DIPPED BEAM be white or yellow. The term 'white' is not strictly defined in the document so is left to the testers discretion. White light is generally considered by scientists to be between 2.5k and 10k with the daylight being between 5 and 6.5k Kelvin. Light over 6k has a visible blueish tinge and may attract the attention of the boys in blue. consider yourself warned.
At the end of the day, if you are unlucky enough to fail an MOT for having HIDs fitted, or have any other problem with them at all, it takes less then five minutes to unplug them and replace one bulb with the traditional H4 bulb you carry under your seat. No tools required.
The advantages of having HID over traditional Halogen bulbs are:
- Three time more light for a third less power - 35W HID @ 3300 lumns vs. 55W Halogen @ 1100 lumens
- Very low cost of conversion - cheapest two bulbs kits from £25 ~1hour to fit.
- Very easy to roll back to original ~ 5 minutes to get you going ~20minutes to restore original.
- You might fail an MOT if you are very unlucky.
Post by: Stormin on 30 July 2015, 09:05:19 pm
Post by: mark g on 30 July 2015, 09:16:05 pm
Post by: PaulSmith on 31 July 2015, 11:14:55 am
The sargeant in question is in the London Metropolitan Police, and has had a number of different roles in traffic. He is currently involved in the commercial stuff as one of the evil bastards that check trucks and lorries are compliant. I am inclined to believe him especially when he gives the reasons that link to the evidence from the MOT documents and offers other ways that he could ticket you. If you did get a fixed point ticket, what was it for? He suggested that it was probably a CU20 "Causing or likely to cause danger by reason of use of unsuitable vehicle or using a vehicle with parts or accessories (excluding brakes, steering or tyres) in a dangerous condition" in which case the particulars should have detailed the offence that needed correcting so his buddy could give you a bollocking if you were stopped for it again. I would guess your bulbs were "inappropriatly coloured potentially causing confusion with an emergency vehicle" (ie the bulbs were blue) or they were just badly adjusted. It was not because you didn't have a self-levelling mechanism, but again, prove me wrong.
Post by: PaulSmith on 31 July 2015, 11:39:09 am
Cheers once more for the info Paul Smith, the cree spot lights in previous post look great but not my cup of tea. Paul, what lit did you end up getting for your bike ? I've been looking at car ones on ebay with slim ballast etc but not sure if they will fit etc.
Bloody hell! I have just seen the kit I fitted for under a tenner! How the hell do that do that? http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2pcs-Pair-35W-55W-75W-Xenon-HID-OEM-Replacement-Bulbs-car-Headlight-Lamp-H4-3-/271930374963?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3f50503b33 (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2pcs-Pair-35W-55W-75W-Xenon-HID-OEM-Replacement-Bulbs-car-Headlight-Lamp-H4-3-/271930374963?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3f50503b33)
Get the 35W H4-3 5000k bulbs with slimline ballasts and you cant go wrong. (I have just ordered a spare set I will keep on the shelf or fit to my daughters car or something.)
I was going to recommend something like the HIDS4U kit http://www.hids4u.co.uk/h4-hids4u-slim-35w-hid-xenon-conversion-motorcycles.html (http://www.hids4u.co.uk/h4-hids4u-slim-35w-hid-xenon-conversion-motorcycles.html) or the http://www.hids4u.co.uk/h4-35w-slim-proplus-bi-xenon-hid-conversion-kit.html (http://www.hids4u.co.uk/h4-35w-slim-proplus-bi-xenon-hid-conversion-kit.html) but at £45 per bulb, I find it hard to justify.
Post by: b1k3rdude on 01 August 2015, 10:34:57 am
The reflector reflects the light from a point source in a pattern decided by its designers. It does not know or care how that light is generated, only if it is in the right place.
And that's the whole point, all retro-fit HID kit's on the market today don't have the arc in the right position. And the HID kits with mechanical hi/lo bulbs are the worse offenders -
- the arc poorly positioned and on every kit I've seen, and its compounded by the fact because the bulb has far too much lateral movement.
- the baffling for the dip beam is nearly always next to useless, so that you get overspill which dazzles other road users.
- on hi-beam the position and baffling is so bad that you just get some half-assed pattern and not all of the light being exposed to the reflector.
- take to warm up to full brightness - bad on a dark lane at night.
- wont be able to perform the flash function, because the bulb with arc and then warm up.
Bloody hell! I have just seen the kit I fitted for under a tenner! How the hell do that do that? [url]http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2pcs-Pair-35W-55W-75W-Xenon-HID-OEM-Replacement-Bulbs-car-Headlight-Lamp-H4-3-/271930374963?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3f50503b33[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2pcs-Pair-35W-55W-75W-Xenon-HID-OEM-Replacement-Bulbs-car-Headlight-Lamp-H4-3-/271930374963?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item3f50503b33[/url])
Case in point -
- all my above points apply to this kit
- the 55W will put out more heat than a stock halogen bulbs, so may damage your plastic reflector.
- the 75w even more heat and are illegal from a wattage point of view.
Post by: mark g on 01 August 2015, 08:00:24 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3p5jedQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3p5jedQ)
https://www.retrofitlab.com/en/hid-projector-kit/bi-xenon-mini-d2s-30-twin-kit-2.html (https://www.retrofitlab.com/en/hid-projector-kit/bi-xenon-mini-d2s-30-twin-kit-2.html)
Post by: b1k3rdude on 02 August 2015, 01:07:59 pm
[url]https://www.retrofitlab.com/en/hid-projector-kit/bi-xenon-mini-d2s-30-twin-kit-2.html[/url] ([url]https://www.retrofitlab.com/en/hid-projector-kit/bi-xenon-mini-d2s-30-twin-kit-2.html[/url])
The youtube link isn't working.
And I have considered doing this as it will give you perfect dip and hi beam patterns, you can send them your headlight and they will fit the kit for you - or can you can do it yourself. The only 'issue' I can foresee with these kits is if the back of the DS2 bulb dosent seal against the rubber covers your going to get condensation inside the headlight housing. I can tell from the photo's if the length/width of the rear of the DS2 bulbs is the same as the oem Halogens . So Im gonna drop them an email...
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIfx_qaEtcE#)
Post by: mark g on 02 August 2015, 03:43:06 pm
Post by: PaulSmith on 04 August 2015, 11:25:44 am
And that's the whole point, all retro-fit HID kit's on the market today don't have the arc in the right position. And the HID kits with mechanical hi/lo bulbs are the worse offenders -"all retro-fit HID kit's on the market today don't have the arc in the right position." Really! :eek All of them? Wow, that is a big claim. I mean, who would have thought that companies like Phillips and Osram wouldn't know how to make a H4 bulb properly? Thank goodness there are people like you on the internet to put them right. So what is the correct position for the light source? Just so I can check my own bulbs are OK?
- the arc poorly positioned and on every kit I've seen, and its compounded by the fact because the bulb has far too much lateral movement.
- the baffling for the dip beam is nearly always next to useless, so that you get overspill which dazzles other road users.
- on hi-beam the position and baffling is so bad that you just get some half-assed pattern and not all of the light being exposed to the reflector.
Post by: PaulSmith on 05 August 2015, 01:23:41 pm
H$-3 HID bulb |
Post by: mark g on 05 August 2015, 09:46:17 pm
Post by: b1k3rdude on 05 August 2015, 11:39:31 pm
I mean, who would have thought that companies like Phillips and Osram wouldn't know how to make a H4 bulb properly?
They don't make H4 kits, genuine Phillips/Osram HID kits are for projection headlights only. Any HID H4 kit that says its a phillips is only referring to the glass bulb, and that assuming its even a genuine philllips/osram in the first place.
Its OK, I was able to find the correct position for my self. Google H4 specifications and look at some of the figures that come up. The key figure is 28.5 mm from the base and it seems that my bulb is OK. Phew, what a relief.
Your being a tad simplistic, if it was that simple then we would all be running them.
So lets take at the HID bulb in the picture, which is just like all telescopic H4 HID kits available -
- did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
- is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
- all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
- The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector.
- And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
- A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
- And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.
Post by: PaulSmith on 06 August 2015, 10:57:30 am
Your being a tad simplistic, if it was that simple then we would all be running them.
It is that simple! And now that bloody things are even cheaper then regular bulbs you have no excuse NOT to use them!
The fact remains they provide three times more light for one third less power. They are, IMHO, the single best safety improvement I have ever made to any bike. That is why I am trying to encourage more people to run them and decide for themselves. If they don't like them, they will be out of pocket less then a tenner!
So lets take at the HID bulb in the picture, which is just like all telescopic H4 HID kits available - [Which is why I used it.]
- did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
- is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
- all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
- The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector. [Do you get enough? I do]
- And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
- A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
- And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.
I went to the hassle of finding the H4 bulb specification, finding a H4-3 HID bulb, finding a vernier caliper and adjusting it correctly, taking the photo and posting it and you couldn't be even be bothered to look at it? What is your problem? Tell you what, I am bored now, here is the spec for a H4. When you post evidence of a problem, I will listen to you, but until then...
H4 bulb spec |
There are direct LED replacement H4 bulbs out there, but this example is tad too pricey - [url]http://www.horizonleds.co.uk/cree-led-headlight-kits-dual-beam/h4-cree-led-headlight-kit[/url] ([url]http://www.horizonleds.co.uk/cree-led-headlight-kits-dual-beam/h4-cree-led-headlight-kit[/url])So bloody what? LED lamps are area source not point source so can not be used effectively in point source based reflectors to produce directed light. Do you know nothing?
Post by: mark g on 06 August 2015, 12:27:12 pm
Post by: b1k3rdude on 06 August 2015, 11:51:56 pm
What is your problem? Tell you what, I am bored now,I don't have a problem, I am simply stating facts. If people can choose to ignore them, they do so to thier detriment.
Post by: PaulSmith on 07 August 2015, 03:18:08 pm
The technical term for what you have been doing is "Expressing opinions" which of course, you are perfectly entitled to do. The difference between opinions and facts is that opinions do not require evidence where as facts do. And since you have utterly failed to provide any hint or suggestion of evidence, and instead provided a continual stream of unspecified carping and knocking of something that clearly provides a very real safety benefit to bikers, you will have to forgive me when I disagree with you and say; yes, you do have a problem.What is your problem? Tell you what, I am bored now,I don't have a problem, I am simply stating facts. If people can choose to ignore them, they do so to thier detriment.
If any of your opinions held merit, and you have expressed a lot of them, from the qualities of the reflectors to imperfections in the position of the low beam shield, then it should have been a simple thing to find supporting evidence for at least one of them. But no. Not even a single link to a crackpot or conspiracy web site and this despite all your authoritative sounding statements suggesting you're expertise. All you have done is bemoaned and denigrated and come up with one weak excuse after another for why it shouldn't work. The fact that I and many others have been successfully using HID replacements for H4 bulbs for years simply hasn't entered your consciousness. Why is that? What gives you the right to assume that I drive around being flashed by one road user after another and am not aware of it? Or are you assuming that I am lying about the use and benefits of HIDs and want to trick other people into using them for some nefarious reasons? So I will ask you again, what is your problem. Please take your time to think about your answer because your behaviour is clearly not normal.
Post by: b1k3rdude on 07 August 2015, 06:47:27 pm
Can we just agree to disagree at this point, all I set out to do was make the OP aware of all the issue's with HIDs, not derail the thread with a pointless ping-pong.
Post by: AyJay on 08 August 2015, 01:20:48 am
PaulSmith, please rebut every single one of the points that BikerDude has made. Just because you have measured 28.5mm from base does not answer the point about lateral free play, for instance. And what about overheating and longevity? I see guys with HIDs from time to time and many of them are clearly badly set up, uselessly and pointlessly dazzling other road users. In fact, I'd say the majority of bulb replacements are badly set up. The all in one separate spotlight kits complete seem ok though, probably because they are designed as a unit to work with HIDs. I seriously doubt there's much design gone into a 20 quid HID replacement that can be retrofitted to any number of bikes.
I am considering a kit and would like to know more, and I'd really like to know why you have to start slagging people with 'your behaviour is clearly not normal' type comments. That's just a fucking stupid slag off rather than a point or counterpoint and it undermines any argument you make. Someone disagrees with you and you call their sanity into question.. really.. ? Answer the questions.....
- did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
- is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
- all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
- The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector.
- And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
- A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
- And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.
Post by: mark g on 08 August 2015, 08:07:39 am
Post by: mark g on 09 August 2015, 11:26:55 am
Post by: Fazerider on 09 August 2015, 03:28:59 pm
As a shift worker, very nearly half my riding is done at night and I can tell you I'm sick to death of being dazzled by other road users. I can rely on having my view of the road seriously impaired at least half a dozen times a night.
Some of the time it's down to the oncoming bell-end having badly adjusted lights, but the rest of the occurrences are due to the layout of the road: when your carriageway is lower, when they hit bumps or a rise in the road, or you've a right hand bend ahead, getting a face-full of below-the-cutoff dipped beam is inevitable.
It was bad enough in the days when quartz halogen was the ultimate source of light, now HIDs produce 3 times the brightness, and are three times as bad for dazzle.
Cars armed with the things are bad enough, bikes are totally unsuitable for them. Aside from the shorter wheelbase meaning that the beam pitches up and down far more than a car does over bumps there is the issue of cornering… just how do you fans of these things stop the dip beam from reaching the treetops when negotiating a left-hander?
Post by: mark g on 09 August 2015, 03:52:22 pm
Post by: Fazerider on 09 August 2015, 05:25:16 pm
Your obviously not too fussy about seeing where your going then at night if your happy with the std set-up??, I must admit for a bike with twin headlights the yam does suck big time at night.
I'm not happy with the standard setup, nor is that what I'm using.
I just don't have HIDs because they cause excessive dazzle.
Post by: mark g on 09 August 2015, 08:24:44 pm
Each to their own I guess but I'll be getting a projector set in the near future :lol
Post by: b1k3rdude on 09 August 2015, 08:49:29 pm
Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned HID is the way forward, I don't like the look of spot/daytime running lights even though probably work fine.LED headlights are being installed in all the latest bikes, they use far less power and are just as bright as HID. Hopefully there are ot will be after market kits that riders can fit to reflector based headlgihts without or less of the failings of HID.
Post by: PaulSmith on 10 August 2015, 03:10:10 pm
i'm very drunk, so I might regret this post but.... I'm a fan of popcorn and a good argument. Understanding comes out of many arguments.Hi AyJay, hope it was a good party. If you read the posts above you will see that I have rebutted, with evidence, almost every one of BikerDudes objections, but BikerDude has not one single piece of evidence supporting his claims. Not one!
PaulSmith, please rebut every single one of the points that BikerDude has made.
...
For example, in response to his claims about 'the arcs in all HID bulbs being in the wrong place' I posted a photo of a measurement of a bulb. His response was to ask if I measured from the centre of the arc, a question you have repeated. His 'knowledgeable' posts would suggest that he had some familiarity with the specifications for a H4 bulb so this would seem like a reasonable question. I then posted the H4 specification and there is no measurement to the centre of the arc. The measurement is to the break point where the high beam ends and the low beam starts, in other words, exactly what was shown in the photo I posted to rebut his daft comment about them all being wrong.
Maybe you think I was slagging him off about his behaviour, but I wasn't. He has has repeatedly suggested that he has experience and expertise in this area and has repeatedly demonstrated his lack of knowledge. Even among natural bullshitters that is not normal behaviour. He has repeatedly come up with wilder and wilder reasons why aftermarket HID bulbs could not possibly work. Despite the evidence that they do. That is not normal, and it is borderline unhealthy.
But just to satisfy your curiosity...
- did you measure to the center of the arc, from the base of the H4 plate? as most will be out a few mm, but can the same be said for Hi beam?
- A. No. The measurement is of the breakpoint between low and high beam. The arc was measured to be in the correct position relative to the break point in both low and high beam modes.
- is there lateral free-play in yours (as in vertical movement where gravity will be pulling the bulb mech downward, mean it out of alignment). And because the bulb is flapping about while the bike is moving you get additional dazzling of other road users.
- A. Of course there is lateral movement because there is movement. But the 'flapping' referred to is probably twice what you would get from the coiled filament of a standard bulb and in no way could it be enough to affect the alignment.
- all telescopic hid kits that I have seen have two shrouds/baffles, an inner and outer. The position of the inner is almost always inaccurate and either allows some spillage on dip and/or obscured on Hi.
- A. What can I say. The bulbs I photographed had their shrouds in the correct place. Can you show an example of a faulty shroud?
- The hole in the outer baffle (again on all kits I have seen) dosent allow enough light out so you don't get all the light being exposed to the reflector.
- A. I find this surprising given that the arc is producing three times the lumens of a traditional bulb. Of course a larger hole would increase the light exposed but it would also increase the risk of light going where you don't want it and causing dazzle.
- And the solenoid mech used in all kits I have seen is very cheap and chearfull to the point that when Hi beam has been on for a while the whole back of the bulb overheats, because its essentially just shy of being a short circuit.
- A. have you any evidence of heat damage to the back of the bulbs? I haven't seen any. Given that the solinoid is moving the bulb holder, which is designed to carry a plasma arc, I would not have expected the solinoid temperature to be an issue, but if you have evidence, I am open to correction.
- A lot of the telescopic kits are so poorly manufactured that the bulbs dosent stayed screwed into the baseplate assy and/or arent sealed so water/condensation can ingress into the headlight unit.
- A. Are we talking about the same bulbs? I haven't encountered any that were 'screwed in'. Water sealing of the headlamp unit is performed by the rubber boot not be the bulb/baseplate assembly. The same boot that is used with standard bulbs.
- And keeping on the subject of cheap and cheerful, most of these kits don't last anywhere near as long as stated, either the bloody bulbs or the ballasts go.
- A. You are right. I rarely get the promised three to ten times the life of a standard bulb and usually have to settle for two to five times the life.
Post by: PaulSmith on 10 August 2015, 03:48:56 pm
Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned HID is the way forward, I don't like the look of spot/daytime running lights even though probably work fine.
LED headlights are being installed in all the latest bikes, they use far less power and are just as bright as HID. Hopefully there are ot will be after market kits that riders can fit to reflector based headlgihts without or less of the failings of HID.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TpR2wK_OA4#)
Some interesting information the use of LEDs in a reflector designed for point source here. (If you are easily bored, skip the first 22 minutes)
Post by: mark g on 10 August 2015, 07:41:46 pm
Post by: AyJay on 10 August 2015, 08:13:30 pm
Post by: b1k3rdude on 10 August 2015, 10:11:52 pm
- A. No. The measurement is of the breakpoint between low and high beam. The arc was measured to be in the correct position relative to the break point in both low and high beam modes.
- A. Of course there is lateral movement because there is movement. But the 'flapping' referred to is probably twice what you would get from the coiled filament of a standard bulb and in no way could it be enough to affect the alignment.
- A. What can I say. The bulbs I photographed had their shrouds in the correct place. Can you show an example of a faulty shroud?
- A. I find this surprising given that the arc is producing three times the lumens of a traditional bulb. Of course a larger hole would increase the light exposed but it would also increase the risk of light going where you don't want it and causing dazzle.
- A. have you any evidence of heat damage to the back of the bulbs? I haven't seen any. Given that the solinoid is moving the bulb holder, which is designed to carry a plasma arc, I would not have expected the solinoid temperature to be an issue, but if you have evidence, I am open to correction.
- A. Are we talking about the same bulbs? I haven't encountered any that were 'screwed in'. Water sealing of the headlamp unit is performed by the rubber boot not be the bulb/baseplate assembly. The same boot that is used with standard bulbs.
- A. You are right. I rarely get the promised three to ten times the life of a standard bulb and usually have to settle for two to five times the life.
- In this instance you need to measure the center point of the arc at hi and lo beam, otherwise what's the point.
- Try several millimetres - which is enough to complete screw the beam pattern - and this is the case for every Telescopic HID kit I have seen in the flash (that's over 10)
- From my experience, if the inner baffle is smaller than a thumbnail (15mm*15mm) that its too small - I have some old HID bulbs I can use to demonstrate my point.
- The reflector is not "seeing" all of the arc,part of the light is being obscured by the outer baffle.
- The issue is that when the HID bulb is in the hi beam position the solenoid is drawing current. Any solenoid drawing generates heat, and at an educated guess I bet in addition to the HID arc itself its pulling more on hi-beam than a Halogen bulb would be.
- To get a H4 Hi/Lo in a HID kit the bulb has to move in and out - video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ0w08ZEhjI) and this also reminded me of another point, as the bulb moves in and out - on most kist the bulb dosent stay perfectly central to the center axis.
- out of the 10 HID I have used/fitted, on half of them either the bulbs or the ballasts needed replacing in under a year (1000hrs @ 20hrs per week) and some under 6 months. That's far far less than the advertised 3000hrs
Some interesting information the use of LEDs in a reflector designed for point source here. (If you are easily bored, skip the first 22 minutes)
Nice find -
- glad to see the chap in the vid reiterating what I have been saying about hid's.
- and regarding the LED bulbs he had, I could straight away they were not going to work because -
- They were not genuine CREE LED elements, physically too small and the night time shot confirmed that.
- The position of the LED elements were wrong, firing from the side. For any home of hi/lo use, the LED elements need to be in the same position as a normal tungsten halogen bulb
- the outer baffle blocking any use of a hi-beam.
Thanks for the info! I'm still kind of baffled as to why so many bikes with these are dazzleships though.
Its because -
- The position of the arc bulb within the main glass envelope is almost always incorrect, so you get a poorly focused beam causing scatter (light to be reflected where its not supposed to be)
- The light output from a HID is just to powerful, from the point of view that the stock reflector was only designed for a 55/60W bulb putting out 900-1000 lumens. So any scatter present from H4 bulb is low enough in light intensity not to cause significant amounts of dazzle. Introduce a HID bulb that puts out 3500+ lumens and that same scatter is 3.5x+ times brighter so far more noticeable..!!
- Then there is the telescopic HID bulbs, most of which are so poorly designed and constructed that there is enough freeplay to allow them to wobble and jiggle around as the bike is in motion, vastly making points 1 & 2 much worse.
- And lastly we have the arc itself which isn't actually fixed, its also moves about aswell. Yes only a few microns but enough that it could also potentially contribute the point 1 & 2.
Post by: PaulSmith on 11 August 2015, 11:31:17 am
1. measure the center point of the arc
Let me try again. You do NOT need to measure the centre point of the arc. Look again at the specifications that I posted. There is NO measurement to where the centre of the light is. There is a measurement to the position between the low beam and the high beam where the light isn't.
The position you measure is the gap between the low and the high beams.
The place where there is no light coming from between the high and the low filaments is the place you need to measure. It needs to be certain distance from the baseline.
A H4 bulb can give off light from two different positions. The high beam position and the low beam position. The position of the low beam must stop before the high beam can start so the reflector can do its job.
You claimed that all HID bulbs where made with the light source in the wrong position. The specification I posted shows how to measure a bulb. The picture I posted shows a bulb being measured. The position in the picture matches the position in the specification proving that the light source is in the correct place, proving that your claim is wrong. That is the point.
2. Try several millimetres
Try some evidence. Even the video you posted shows that the lateral movement, if it could be measured, would be less then a 10th of a milimeter. That is not enough to affect alignment.
3. Baffle hole that its too small
Too small for what exactly?
4. The reflector is not "seeing" all of the arc
Again, some evidence would help. Or, at the risk of repeating myself, so?
5. ...its pulling more on hi-beam than a Halogen bulb would be.
Now you are just making shit up. Why don't you measure the resistance of the solinoid on one of the many HID bulbs you have lying about and apply ohms law to determine its current draw. You can even impose worst case weak battery/damaged alternator scenario and calculate draw at 10 volts instead of 12.
6. ...bulb dosent stay perfectly central
Now I am repeating myself. So? Or if you prefer, I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply provided to question 2.
7. ...That's far far less than the advertised 3000hrs
True. That said, they are fitted to a motorbike and not sitting on a test bench. I never got the advertised life out of a traditional bulb either but it is not like a failure is going to leave you stranded since everything is doubled up. That said. I do carry a traditional H4 bulb under the seat when I am going on longer trips.
Now to LEDs.
CREE are a manufacturer, not a bulb type. You would get almost exactly the same results with LED replacements for H4 bulbs from any other manufacturer. The problem is not who makes them, or what type emitter is used, or the position of the LED elements, (which by the way are as 'right' as it can be given the nature of LEDs), it is much simpler than that. As I have mentioned more than once, LED emitters are not point sources. LEDs are surface mounted with the light being emitted perpendicular to the surface. Yes there is a lot of spread, but none of the light can go through the surface so full surround reflectors (the type you get with H4 bulbs etc.) are not a lot of use. The result is clear from the video. The light source emits as much or more light (in Lumens) as traditional H4 bulbs, but the direction it is shining in means the reflectors can not point much of it down the road.
And finally -
The position of the arc bulb within the main glass envelope is almost always incorrect...
No it fucking isn't as I have proven.
The light output from a HID is just to powerful,
Correct. Pity the rest of the sentence is bullshit. You used this argument the last tim eyou tried to knock HIDs and I proved, using MOT documents, that the test is for the pattern which is correct or it isn't. The intensity is neither measured not important.
there is enough freeplay to allow them to wobble and jiggle
I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply provided to question 2.
arc itself which isn't actually fixed
I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply provided to question 2.
Post by: b1k3rdude on 11 August 2015, 01:28:11 pm
Post by: 7omly on 11 August 2015, 11:06:39 pm
Post by: PaulSmith on 12 August 2015, 10:52:45 am
@PS, I really don't know your issue is but, you have gone out of your way to pick holes or just be plain argumentative with every point I have made. On several occasions you have demonstrated that your grasp of the technology is highly subjective, so to that end I have lost any and all interest trying to explain the facts, that are obvious to everyone else but you.
Remember that we talked about this before. Facts and opinions are not the same thing. You are entitled to your opinions but facts require the support of evidence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS12p0Zqlt0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS12p0Zqlt0)
I have picked holes in every argument you made that had holes in it. The difference is that I did not rely on my expertise or experience, I provided evidence. The facts that are obvious to everyone are: HIDs are three times brighter then traditional bulbs, HIDs use a third less power then traditional bulbs and (currently) HIDs are cheaper then traditional bulbs, but if you are the type of person who does not know or care about how to align their lights correctly, then they are probably not for you. The one new fact that I have learnt is that HIDs have 'haters'. People who believe that HIDs are abominations that must be stamped out. It appears to be a religious belief as the facts, evidence and the truth does not seem to matter to these people. I have been lucky enough to have never met one before, but now I am a little wiser.
Post by: b1k3rdude on 12 August 2015, 01:18:36 pm
I'm thinking of fitting HIDs and asked my mate (MOT Inspector) about legality. His reply was the only specific criteria for motorcycles is they musn't dazzle other road users.While your at it get the 4300k kits because 1. as you go up the temp range thew lumens drops (so 4300K bulbs put out the most light), 2. 4300 is the closest to white and its a legal req. that front facing light be white.
Post by: Just Fazered on 15 August 2015, 10:40:28 am
It's true, the lights on but nobodies in :lol
Post by: tnfazer on 30 August 2015, 08:24:24 pm
I don'r ride that often in the dark, but when I do I want to light up the woods to minimize the chances of barreling into a moose or a deer (and heck, I just got warned yesterday about wild boars in the area I'm going to next weekend).
Anyone tried or thought about these?
http://www.cyclopsadventuresports.com/3800-Lumen-H4-LED-Headlight-bulb-_p_83.html (http://www.cyclopsadventuresports.com/3800-Lumen-H4-LED-Headlight-bulb-_p_83.html)
Post by: PaulSmith on 31 August 2015, 10:48:22 am
Your lights do two jobs; they let you see and they let you be seen. LEDs are excellent for being seen because the provide an intense light very close to daylight, but because it is very hard to focus it without a properly designed reflector, they are not so could when it comes to seeing what is there. If you did mainly city driving, they might be fine, but I would not recommend them for avoiding the wildlife.
Post by: bludclot on 31 August 2015, 02:57:17 pm
fwiw i changed my side light bulbs for LED in order to be seen better. i changed my dipped/main bulbs for LED and they were terrible (main beam didn't even work!), so opted for Osram Nightbreakers. i find these to be a bit better than standard bulbs, probably worth about the £12 or so from ebay.
Post by: PaulSmith on 31 August 2015, 03:41:13 pm
If you are not in a hurry, the same money will get you a HID kit in ebay from Chine (one month delivery), give it a try and if you don't like it you can chuck it.
fwiw i changed my side light bulbs for LED in order to be seen better. i changed my dipped/main bulbs for LED and they were terrible (main beam didn't even work!), so opted for Osram Nightbreakers. i find these to be a bit better than standard bulbs, probably worth about the £12 or so from ebay.