old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: kebab19 on 20 September 2014, 08:31:18 pm
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Had a bit of an incident this morning.
Normal road riding conditions probably doing 50 or so at the time.
Pulled front & rear brakes to slow down, heard a fairly loud crack then realised that the rear brake pedal was solid and wasn't working anymore. I was about 2 miles from home so limped back and then had a look in the driveway.
I was disturbed to see both the rear caliper and the torque arm had rotated up round the top of the swingarm. I thought the torque arm securing bolt had either come off or broken but then took a look under the swingarm where the torque arm mounts :eek Brake fluid all over the back wheel after the line got twisted round.
These swingarms are alloy so it can't be due to corrosion. I have no idea how this could have happened, everything was secured safely. Could it be down to the bluespot rear (or silverspot in my case)? Metal fatigue?
I realise some people will suspect I was acting an eejit, locking the rear at 80 or something, but this wasn't the case. Sobering stuff....
Anyway, I now need a replacement swingarm, RHS chain adjuster and rear brake line now :( and new pants
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/1_zps02b82bcf.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/2_zpsef6ab556.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/4_zps50c0a61a.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/5_zps8ae5b096.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/6_zps151f61df.jpg)
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Glad that you are safe mate - but I don't know why people want to go changing the original back calliper and arm anyway and your experience is another reason not to do so.
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:eek
Scary. Lucky it didn't lever the back wheel off the road as the arm pivoted round. Guess I'll take a look at mine tomorrow to check it's not threatening to do the same thing.
Good luck with the repairs.
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Lucky escape alright. Any chance the bolt was over tightened and that might have cracked the lug on the swingarm?
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Powdercoat could hide anything, as above maybe it was too tight, suppose you might get away with making a bracket and drilling the swingarm if youre feeling brave...
This is why i kept the original torque arm.
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You could get it ali welded if you wanted
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If you were doing 80 when that happened your lucky the whole thing didn't go through the wheel and send you flying into the air in a different direction to the bike. Glad you are here to do the show n tell. I won't be fitting a fancy torque arm/blue dot now.
Cheers and stay safe
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Fitting a blue dot caliper would have nothing to do with it as it is fitted to the standard mounts. :rolleyes
Fitting a non standard torque would be a more likely culprit.
Another culprit would be, not loosening the caliper side and swinging arm side torque arm bolts when adjusting the chain.
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Fitting a blue dot caliper would have nothing to do with it as it is fitted to the standard mounts. :rolleyes
Fitting a non standard torque would be a more likely culprit.
Another culprit would be, not loosening the caliper side torque arm bolt when adjusting the chain.
Sorry don't get that unfazed, why would you need to do that? If the torque arm is undone but the calliper bolts aren't and you realigned the rear wheel/chain tension the torque arm would still be in the same place. It's all a fixed point.
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The angle of the torque arm changes as you adjust the chain. You really notice it when you go from an old stretched chain to a new one.
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Fitting a blue dot caliper would have nothing to do with it as it is fitted to the standard mounts. :rolleyes
Fitting a non standard torque would be a more likely culprit.
I always thought (from reading past posts )that if you were fitting a blue dot then the OEM arm was the wrong length and so you also need a different arm to match.
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And thus if you don't loosen the calliper end torque bolt, the arm is stressed under tension, and this applies a shearing force to the other end of the torque arm mount... where yours has sheared off !!
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If you look at this picture the area around the mount point on the face of the swing arm looks ground off a little, also the welding on the mount point dosent look like a factory neat job,has this already been re welded in the past I wonder, I also see a different shock and dog bones as well as the non oem caliper and arm .
I wonder if its a combo of all these things was just too much of a change in speck for the OEM mount point
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/kebab19/5_zps8ae5b096.jpg)
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The angle of the torque arm changes as you adjust the chain. You really notice it when you go from an old stretched chain to a new one.
And thus if you don't loosen the calliper end torque bolt, the arm is stressed under tension, and this applies a shearing force to the other end of the torque arm mount... where yours has sheared off !!
Eureka :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
Nothing to do with suspension
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The angle of the torque arm changes as you adjust the chain. You really notice it when you go from an old stretched chain to a new one.
And thus if you don't loosen the calliper end torque bolt, the arm is stressed under tension, and this applies a shearing force to the other end of the torque arm mount... where yours has sheared off !!
Eureka :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
Nothing to do with suspension
Hmmm -- I pulled my wheel back a few months ago by about 2mm (yes) do you think I should now go and loosen off the caliper-side arm bolt, and then re tighten to realease said stress
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Mmmm
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Sorry I dont get you tweety ?
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LoL
Soz. I was pissin around a bit. 4give.
Loosen the bolt AND the calliper hanger bolt, THEN adjust chain, and then tighten up to the torque specs
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Ok, I sort of knew I should losen the arm bolt but from my memory of the manual there is no need to lossen the caliper hanger bracket.
EDIT or by caliper hanger do you mean caliper hanger side of the arm.
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Should loosen both ends of the torsion bar for adjustment :rolleyes
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Should loosen both ends of the torsion bar for adjustment :rolleyes
You are correct Midden, it should have read "not loosening the caliper side and swinging arm side torque arm bolts when adjusting the chain"
Unfortunately 90% of people including mechanics do not :eek
I have changed the post to reflect your correct observation, it is obvious from the comment that you too loosen the bolts as do I and a few others on the forum. :)
What bother me most is the number of mechanics who do not loosen these bolts or understand why you should :eek
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I am glad kebab19 was ok with nothing more than shock and the lightening of his pocket to repair the damage.
Great advantage of this forum is that by him posting what happen and the comments of how and why will prevent it from happening to others :thumbup
Thankfully we learn a little everyday and some days what we learn may help us live longer. :)
Kebab19, you are probably aware, but in the off chance you are not, the foxeye swinging arm is different to the boxeye ones. :eek
I personally would also change the torque arm and caliper bracket just to be absolutely confident.
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Im still scratching my chin on this whole tourque arm thing.
How come then if you should loosen it (both ends ) before you pull back the wheel-------- how come you CAN still pull back the wheel without loosening said arm.
And what exactly is the tourque arm providing tourque against or what tourque is it countering, I always thought it was to stop the caliper spinning around the disk when you brake --- but isnt it bolted in place?
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Im still scratching my chin on this whole tourque arm thing.
How come then if you should loosen it (both ends ) before you pull back the wheel-------- how come you CAN still pull back the wheel without loosening said arm.
And what exactly is the tourque arm providing tourque against or what tourque is it countering, I always thought it was to stop the caliper spinning around the disk when you brake --- but isnt it bolted in place?
edited out my response: changed my mind ! :eek kebab , you have answered your own question and also seen the results of not having a torque arm or having one that isnt to spec, non OEM, or has been stressed out of normal parameters
try to visualise in math terms...
imagine a triangle made of tough steel rods connected by bolts at each corner. One side is your vertical on the swingarm, one side is from the vertical to the caliper along the swingarm horizontal, and the final side is the torque arm. Now imagine pushing and pulling on the calliper , what do you think is going to happen to the shape of the triangle. Push hard, force, its going to "bend" the triangle and eventually one side is going to bust (or a corner).
Now, undo some of the bolts and the triangle now starts to change its shape, its still a triangle but the angles are changing -and thus the shape - as you move the corners around pushing and pulling. It moves freely now but there is no rigidity - things can move around the pivots (corners) and so can the calliper !!!.
Tighten up the bolts again and you have a rigid triangle shape. Try to bend it now or apply forces too great, and it will break but under normal parameters the shape remains rigid and the pivots stay where they are (the calliper doesnt move!)
So if one of the sides is weak (a non OEM torque arm or an arm not to spec) then the forces applied when braking are going to try to move that triangle shape and the weak point (the arm) is going to give or a pivot (the mount) is going to shear
When you adjust your chain you are changing the wheelbase and the shape of the triangle; loosening the bolts allows the calliper to rotate slightly around the pivot and bring the triangle into a slightly different shape and moves the torque arm slightly (the swingarm "sides" of the triangle cannot move). Without allowing the calliper to rotate, you are trying to apply those forces to the triangle without allowing the shape to change in reciprocation and thus "blow" the triangle out of shape or make it come loose at the weakest point - a pivot point (the swingarm mount in your case).
Its all very minor adjustments but the sum of the parts is greater.
. Voila!
You have your answer
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Errr forgive me but I will read that again another day --------- when Mr Tyskie is not with me
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The angle of the torque arm changes as you adjust the chain. You really notice it when you go from an old stretched chain to a new one.
And thus if you don't loosen the calliper end torque bolt, the arm is stressed under tension, and this applies a shearing force to the other end of the torque arm mount... where yours has sheared off !!
Eureka :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
Nothing to do with suspension
Hmmm -- I pulled my wheel back a few months ago by about 2mm (yes) do you think I should now go and loosen off the caliper-side arm bolt, and then re tighten to realease said stress
Technically, Yes :)
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Errr forgive me but I will read that again another day --------- when Mr Tyskie is not with me
All tweetytek is saying is that the angle between
A. The torque arm and the swinging arm
and
B. The torque arm and caliper bracket changes as the caliper bracket rotates when you move the axle.
If the bolts are tight it cannot move freely and stresses the bolting (pivot) points.
Eventually something has to give and in Kebab19 case it was the swinging arm pivot point :thumbup :lol
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Thanks guys for this informative chin wag. I recently did a complete overhaul of the rear end of my fazer 600. This included new chain and sprockets, and a nice new sexy R6 shock conversion kit bought from kebab19. Had a bit of a problem fitting the shock because my suspension linkage bearings were non existent due to failure on my part to grease them. Bought a second hand linkage and was able to fit the afore mentioned sexy shocker. By the way thanks again kebab19 :thumbup for the shock and the offer to search your garage for an old linkage for me. :) I then put on the new chain and sprockets but had a real hard time trying to get the wheel to line up using the alignment marks on the swingarm. I got it quite close but it was a bugger to do and did line up completely true. I scratched my head and gave up resigned to the fact that the almost correct alignment was as close as I could get. I know realize that when I replaced the chain and sprockets and tried to align the wheel I didn't loosen the torque arm bolts :oops . So first thing tomorrow morning I shall be out with the tools and will be realigning the wheel but this time with the torque arm bolts loose. Hopefully this will allow me to correctly and accurately align the back wheel. Sorry to hear about the accident you nearly had kebab19 but something really fooking useful has came out of it and I for one am greatfull for the information regarding the need to loosen the torque arm bolts prior to rear wheel alignment. So thanks guys, a day when something new and useful is learnt is a good day indeed. Cheers to all who contributed. :sun
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:thumbup
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I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward. Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.
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Recommended torque on the nuts is 23 Nm,
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I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward. Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.
agreed! who said to tighten it like that anyway? that sounds - to me - what caused the problem in the first place
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I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward. Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.
agreed! who said to tighten it like that anyway? that sounds - to me - what caused the problem in the first place
Because everybody knows the rule "if in doubt swing out of it" :lol :lol :lol
How many do you know who do their own maintenance actually own a Torque Wrench? :eek :eek :eek
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No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum
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No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum
Yes but you are quoting a yamaha SHOP manual . it assumes a working level competence within the shop bay at the DEALER garage. All staff undergo general yamaha centric DEALER/franchise training and this sort of document is merely a guide for THE SPECIFIC BIKE MODEL. I mean this shop manual doesnt say a lot of things in a lot of areas; you are better off with a Haynes if you are new to Yamahas or indeed perhaps new to bike DIY in general. Otherwise this shop manual is okay but not a prescriptive line by line 101% step by step noddy guide so watch out :rolleyes
Of course my friend, the litmus test is to repeat your test again once the bike is all good to go and come back and tell us what happened after a few 000s miles !!! It is entirely your decision as to whether you take the advice on offer above from foccers - or not :z
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I can also confirm that the haynes manual does not state that you need to slacken the arm nuts.
So thats the owners manual that came with the bike, haynes manual and the service guide all saying there is no need to loosen the arm.
EDIT----- just to make it clear that the advice given by focers is excellent and always given through experience.Just pointing out that no manual says to loosen it
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I can also confirm that the haynes manual does not state that you need to slacken the arm nuts.
So thats the owners manual that came with the bike, haynes manual and the service guide all saying there is no need to loosen the arm.
LoL - don't loosen it then :lol
just have a look at that haynes for us a minute and tell us which way to turn the key in the seat lock - I'm not sure ?! cheers
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just have a look at that haynes for us a minute and tell us which way to turn the key in the seat lock - I'm not sure ?! cheers
It says clockwise--is that wrong then because you are not making any sence now because you said
you are better off with a Haynes if you are new to Yamahas or indeed perhaps new to bike DIY in general
So are you now saying I should take no notice of haynes
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It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.
Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it
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It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.
Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it
the practice is quite common mate, jI've been doing it for years, but here is just a few links taken during 10 seconds of surfing ...
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikechatforums.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D190435&ei=7ZUlVN-oErLB7AbgpoEo&usg=AFQjCNHm5YmHILeBks-2G5uVW9M6bVhDkg&bvm=bv.76247554,d.ZGU (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikechatforums.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D190435&ei=7ZUlVN-oErLB7AbgpoEo&usg=AFQjCNHm5YmHILeBks-2G5uVW9M6bVhDkg&bvm=bv.76247554,d.ZGU)
http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/11628-slack-chain/ (http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/11628-slack-chain/)
http://diversionclub.proboards.com/thread/3814/removing-rear-wheel-swing-xj600 (http://diversionclub.proboards.com/thread/3814/removing-rear-wheel-swing-xj600)
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=49483.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=49483.0)
I could probably find 000s more but hey, the haynes manual doesnt mention it :'( so maybe I'm gunna stop bothering and just do something more interesting as I am no expert on fizzies and only ever owned 1 (currently) for only a few months. but this sort of "generic" failsafe working practice is one of those things that takes seconds and saves a loada aggro - no brainer really
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It never crossed my mind that this would need loosening.
Thank foc i never needed to adjust my chain thats all im saying.......even doing my bike lessons they did a quick run around on how to adjust a chain & there was never any mention of some bikes needing torque arm adjustments to do the chain......hardly user friendly is it
the practice is quite common mate, jI've been doing it for years, but here is just a few links taken during 10 seconds of surfing ...
[url]http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikechatforums.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D190435&ei=7ZUlVN-oErLB7AbgpoEo&usg=AFQjCNHm5YmHILeBks-2G5uVW9M6bVhDkg&bvm=bv.76247554,d.ZGU[/url] ([url]http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikechatforums.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D190435&ei=7ZUlVN-oErLB7AbgpoEo&usg=AFQjCNHm5YmHILeBks-2G5uVW9M6bVhDkg&bvm=bv.76247554,d.ZGU[/url])
[url]http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/11628-slack-chain/[/url] ([url]http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/11628-slack-chain/[/url])
http:/ersionclub.proboards.com/thread/3814/removing-rear-wheel-swing-xj600 ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/http:/ersionclub.proboards.com/thread/3814/removing-rear-wheel-swing-xj600[/url])
[url]http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=49483.0[/url] ([url]http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=49483.0[/url])
I could probably find 000s more but hey, the haynes manual doesnt mention it :'( so maybe I'm gunna stop bothering and just do something more interesting
Granted...fair enough....but it isnt exactly intuitive i dont think........some of yous guys have vast experience of bikes so maybe you've learnt it but i still think it is one of those things that is a bit of a oh foc....real simple though....kebab seems to know his stuff and he still got cought out maybe.
Actually....question......i never needed to adjust my chain....if my torque arm was done up tighter than a nuns tights then was it taking the strain that my chain should have been taking and then would my torque arm have exploded........or would a chain still stretch anyway?
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hope you're not including me in the "expert" assertion - I learn more than i give on here me thinks. For me , unfazed, midden, dudeness, and darrsi seem to know quite a bit
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hope you're not including me in the "expert" assertion - I learn more than i give on here me thinks. For me , unfazed, midden, dudeness, and darrsi seem to know quite a bit
Its purely hypothetical.
If the torque arm is too tight then does it therefore save the chain?
Im not saying that it is a good way to save a chain but more a way for me to get my head around the whole process of whats going on here with this problem.
I dont even have a 600 any more...well i do...but just a frame....to be fair that frame isnt causing me any issues :b
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Just read your links, and none of them are to do with FZS600 and they too are having the same debate, and also saying that their printed instructions do not say to loosen.
I don't understand why its being said here that you should and yet 2 different yam manuals and 1 haynes don't mention it.
And all those people who have adjusted the chain without loosening the arm --how come they could yet still adjust the chain.
I'm sure there is built in movement in the arm fixings 23NM and maybe kebabs problem is from over tightening them and removing any give it once had.
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Just read your links, and none of them are to do with FZS600 and they too are having the same debate, and also saying that their printed instructions do not say to loosen.
I don't understand why its being said here that you should and yet 2 different yam manuals and 1 haynes don't mention it.
And all those people who have adjusted the chain without loosening the arm --how come they could yet still adjust the chain.
I'm sure there is built in movement in the arm fixings 23NM and maybe kebabs problem is from over tightening them and removing any give it once had.
I didnt say they were all fizzies - I was making the point that its a general issue / practice for many people
Look, if you dont want to do it dont bloody do it - I dont care really to be honest what you do :rolleyes but glad to see your well and alive after the awful incident - keep it that way ;)
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when you pull the wheel back the distance between the calliper torque arm point and the swing arm fixing point stays the same,the holes are round not elongated, what changes is the calliper rotation which is catered for by a greased pivot point at each end of the arm held inplace by a 23nm bolt that still allows for a pivot on calliper rotation when the wheel is pulled back.
That's how I am seeing it.
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Just to add tweety I know that you have had a bad day, I don't want to wind you up or upset you in any way, I am not arguing with you as such just need to make sure its right.
One thing is though that it wont do any harm to loosen them BUT it will do great harm if you do not use a torque wrench and you end up over tightening them
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hope you're not including me in the "expert" assertion - I learn more than i give on here me thinks. For me , unfazed, midden, dudeness, and darrsi seem to know quite a bit
I just do what unfazed, midden and his dudeness tell me to. :rollin
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Just to add tweety I know that you have had a bad day, I don't want to wind you up or upset you in any way, I am not arguing with you as such just need to make sure its right.
One thing is though that it wont do any harm to loosen them BUT it will do great harm if you do not use a torque wrench and you end up over tightening them
No harm intended. I've had a good day actually, and going to have a better nite. Don't take me too seriously as im not touchy feely, cuddling and caring...I won't hold your hand... Just the way I am, but it's not anger or frustration or ridicule ... Chill ;)
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Wow, this one has run for a bit while I've been away :)
The swingarm wasn't powdercoated black, just sprayed by the previous owner judging by the way paint was coming off it. The replacement torque arm was in place when I bought the bike.
It's true, I hadn't adjusted the torque arm to compensate and paid a (relatively small) price for the mistake :o .
I have now replaced the swingarm, chain adjusters and brake line. There is a small nick /gouge in the caliper but not too deep.
Whilst I am still a fan of replacement rear calipers, I think I'll go back to a standard torque arm. I'm not sure if it's a different length as I don't have one for direct comparison.
Still, hopefully my misfortune has provided some useful information.
Must post another shot of the damage now I have the old swingarm off...
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See my comment http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,14772.msg168096.html#msg168096 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,14772.msg168096.html#msg168096)
I slacken the bolts and torque them to 23Nm out of habit, however 23 Nm is not tight enough to lock the torque arm solid and it will move without damaging the arm, or pivots, but as I said previously:
Everybody knows the rule "if in doubt swing out of it" (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif) (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif) (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif)
There have been many occasions when adjusting the chains for others I have had difficulty in opening the bolts on the torque arm because of the "if in doubt swing out of it"
For the above reason I tell people to slacken off the pivot bolts and tighten them when finished adjusting the chain, and not to over tighten them afterwards, this prevents the "if in doubt swing out of it" causing problems. (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif)
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maybe this might help
£9 plus £7,99 p+p! cant go wrong
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YAMAHA-Fazer-FZS-600-Rear-Swingarm-Swinging-Arm-/231297175809?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item35da62d101 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YAMAHA-Fazer-FZS-600-Rear-Swingarm-Swinging-Arm-/231297175809?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item35da62d101)
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I would actually question the need to tighten the torque arm to the extent it wouldn't adjust with the caliper bracket rotation when moving the wheel back or forward. Afterall as already mentioned the bar is only to stop the caliper bracket from spinning. Obviously not too loose, just enough that with a bit of effort it can be lifted and lowered.
agreed! who said to tighten it like that anyway? that sounds - to me - what caused the problem in the first place
Because everybody knows the rule "if in doubt swing out of it" :lol :lol :lol
How many do you know who do their own maintenance actually own a Torque Wrench? :eek :eek :eek
I have one :b
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Yes but you are quoting a yamaha SHOP manual . it assumes a working level competence within the shop bay at the DEALER garage. All staff undergo general yamaha centric DEALER/franchise training and this sort of document is merely a guide for THE SPECIFIC BIKE MODEL.
so does instruction number 4 require a higher level of competence than that normally presumed of a shop bay dealer garage mechanic then ;)
It says: 4. Loosen wheel axle nut
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No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum
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No where does it say that you need to loosen the arm bolts when adj the chain slack, I have the origional owners manual and here is the online service guide that I downloaded from this forum
Why cant I delete my reply, I feel stupid now!!! haha