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General => General => Topic started by: Grahamm on 04 December 2011, 12:22:03 am
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I had another IAM Observed Ride today and ended up following a Senior IAM Observer down the A272 and the Morestead Road at speeds, if not in excess of, certainly approaching R171... (http://cafedillo.org.uk/forums/Smileys/default/icon_biggrin.gif)
1 R is a velocity measure, defined as a reasonable speed of travel that is consistent with health, mental wellbeing and not being more than say five minutes late. It is therefore clearly an almost infinitely variable figure according to circumstances, since the first two factors vary not only with speed taken as an absolute, but also with awareness of the third factor. Unless handled with tranquility this equation can result in considerable stress, ulcers and even death.
R17 is not a fixed velocity, but it is clearly far too fast.
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
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Lucky I wasn't Moresteading at the same time I left a black stripe round cottage corner in the summer..downshifted a bit heavily and ragged it round...love that road
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I did have one serious "Oh s$$t!" moment on a tight left hander when I was looking at his line rather than the corner, majorly over-cooked it and ended up running wide when I panicked and got target fixated on the upcoming scenery, then tried to brake instead of leaning it in! :o
Fortunately there was nothing coming the other way at the time, so I leaned my thumb on the horn button as I managed to get it back on to the proper side of the road about a second before a car came the opposite direction...! :eek
This ride also made me start playing with the top left quadrant of the rev counter (something I don't normally do) which might have been something to do with the fact that he was on a 1050 Tiger...
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Hmmm cottage corner is a bit like that as is the exit from the esses...trick is to come in from the other lane at the cottage if there's no traffic...you can get round there at about 45 while merrily soiling your pants...
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I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread
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Hmmm cottage corner is a bit like that as is the exit from the esses...trick is to come in from the other lane at the cottage if there's no traffic...you can get round there at about 45 while merrily soiling your pants...
We were going eastbound and looking at the map on google this was in Belmore Lane approaching the crossroads with Salt Lane and Beeches Lane, just before it dips down and goes over the crest then drops down through the woods.
It could have been a lot worse than it was, but it was certainly a salutary learning experience!!
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I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread
I was just thinking that it suited you... :pokefun
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Its odd how you find such riding totally acceptable, wonder if you would similarly salute a sportsbike rider doing the same...or would there be sagacious tut tuts from the small throng of heavily bearded gentlemen... :rolleyes
personally I keep my moments of high velocities to myself, as its really only me that I try to impress by doing such. ;)
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Salute them? fecks sake man...I am busy enough opening the approach, keeping my head high, modulating a trailing throttle and driving round them ...you want me to salute them tooo? ....It's a 60 limit... All the actions described are within the letter of the law...the angle of dangle is open to interpretation...
If and I say if I ever win a photo competition (unlikely) I think my suggested theme will be 'your favourite corner' I suspect this will result in images of prossies etc.. but we are a highbrow forum lol
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Its odd how you find such riding totally acceptable, wonder if you would similarly salute a sportsbike rider doing the same...or would there be sagacious tut tuts from the small throng of heavily bearded gentlemen... :rolleyes
Where did the words "totally acceptable" come from? They're as accurate as describing me as "heavily bearded"!
FYI (despite the humorous quote from the HHGTTG) I only consider that sort of riding in *appropriate* places, ie not doing 60 in a 30 limit, not overtaking in dangerous places that cause other road users to have to change their speed or direction and generally not riding like a complete twunt.
There's also the point that I a) admitted that I made a mistake and b) I will *learn* from it rather than thinking "wow, that was good riding that let me recover from that" without changing my behaviour.
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The point graham is .... why is it IAM frown on other people exceeding the limit ...yet they are quite happy to do so themselves !
It was this double standards which put me off them 10 yrs ago...and yes they did have beards , and yes they truly believed/ boasted that on their old pans they could "outride any blade" ...that is after pulling their paunches aside so they could get flat on the tank to coax another mph from their bikes. I wont print what I thought of them but it rhymes with bankers ... :lol
Of course its all changed since then..... :z
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The point graham is .... why is it IAM frown on other people exceeding the limit ...yet they are quite happy to do so themselves !
You're absolutely right and those Police car drivers and bikers should also have to stick to the speed limit too...
Or perhaps it's knowing *when* it is safe to exceed the limit and being aware of *what* to look out for and understanding the difference between those and "Wow, I can ride fast, I must be a great biker!"
Of course its all changed since then..... :z
No, they still all hate you because you're so much cooler than them and you can ride better and... whatever... :rolleyes
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A while back I went on a days rideout with my local IAM group which was open to anyone to join in on. The route was well chosen and I was really impressed how stragglers and those left behind because of traffic were steered back on course by 'tail end Charlies'. Although the general pace was slower that what I would normally ride at, I learned a lot by watching the riders observation and road placement and following in their 'footsteps', plus reigning in the throttle hand. Everyone within the group (IAM or otherwise) rode in an exemplary fashion and that day out will remain with me as one of the best I've had. I'm not minded to join the IAM because with 30 years riding with just 2 non fault offs I'm happy with my roadcraft , but I'd more than reccomend anyone take the opportunity to join in with a IAM rideout and then consider whether their riding would benefit from the training available. I'm pretty sure anyone riding like an idiot on a IAM rideout has an issue with the size of his todger which the the professionalism of the group cannot help him with.
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Graham
I dont see myself as cool. :lol ..... Just dont brag about what I do. Police riders may have some immunity ref speed limits,if they are on duty, but usually on their own bikes, get same treatment as anyone else.They also have the benefit of much more training than you and I.
Personally if I do speed, its on my own, on roads I at least know well, and its entirely at my own risk.
12 yrs after pasing my IAM , if anything I am more cautious/ slower than ever.I do think that passing the IAM can give you a feeling of smugness and invulnerability ..after all, how can accidents happen now I am so well trained ??.... trouble is, they may still do so. The wise owl stands back, takes on board all the safety points and rides at his or her own pace.
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and yes they truly believed/ boasted that on their old pans they could "outride any blade" ...that is after pulling their paunches aside so they could get flat on the tank to coax another mph from their bikes. I wont print what I thought of them but it rhymes with bankers ... :lol
Of course its all changed since then..... :z
It's about time the IAM was disbanded I think, this organisation has had a disastrous and embarrasing image for a couple of decades now and it's simply not able to change peoples perception of it. This is very bad for motorcycling.
Regularly, on all the forums I've frequented over the years a significant number of people have voiced dislike of the IAM and ironically of course, some of these same people would benefit from advanced training, but they don't go for it -because they don't like the IAM's image and image is important in motorcycling whether the beardy IAM people think so or not. No effort has been made to change this image as far as I can see and this smacks of an even deeper arrogance within the organisation.
If the IAM is putting off people getting advanced training it's time for the organisation to go, it's self defeating. The instructors, many of whom are no doubt valuable teachers could work for similar less odious organisations and/or get behind the launch of a new one.
Who is to blame? I would say a lot of it is to do with the high degree of arrogance that exuded from many of the IAM observers in the early years. Why they behaved like this I don't know, but I hope they realise what an awful legacy they propogated and what damage they did to rider training.
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Personally if I do speed, its on my own, on roads I at least know well, and its entirely at my own risk.
Yes, and...?
The mistake I made that I detailed in the OP was my own fault, not because I was trying to do something someone else had done, but because I wasn't concentrating on what *I* was doing. As you're always told "Ride your own ride, you are responsible for all your own riding decisions".
It was a stupid loss of concentration, fortunately I got away with it and I certainly won't do it again.
I do think that passing the IAM can give you a feeling of smugness and invulnerability ..after all, how can accidents happen now I am so well trained ??.... trouble is, they may still do so.
As opposed to all the other people on the road who simply think "I've passed my driving test/ bike test, so I know everything I need to know..."?
At least with advanced training you've got a better idea of the risks involved.
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It's about time the IAM was disbanded I think, this organisation has had a disastrous and embarrasing image for a couple of decades now and it's simply not able to change peoples perception of it. This is very bad for motorcycling.
Regularly, on all the forums I've frequented over the years a significant number of people have voiced dislike of the IAM and ironically of course, some of these same people would benefit from advanced training, but they don't go for it -because they don't like the IAM's image and image is important in motorcycling whether the beardy IAM people think so or not. No effort has been made to change this image as far as I can see and this smacks of an even deeper arrogance within the organisation.
So when I, as an IAM Associate, try to "change this image" when others post their dislike of the IAM based on an outmoded impression of what the IAM is like, I should just give up and stop wasting my time and, instead, lobby for the IAM to be closed down?
If the IAM is putting off people getting advanced training it's time for the organisation to go
Oddly, my local group, the Solent Advanced Motorcyclists, have a Mobile Display Unit which they take out to various bike events and offer people free Assessed Rides and the opportunity to sign up.
Recently there has been discussion about *not* taking the MDU out, not because of some alleged negative image which is "putting people off getting advanced training", but because the group simply does not have enough Observers to assign new Associates to!
The instructors, many of whom are no doubt valuable teachers could work for similar less odious organisations and/or get behind the launch of a new one.
Like RoSPA, for instance? I know someone who's a member of a RoSPA group and says that it's "struggling to survive" at the moment.
Who is to blame? I would say a lot of it is to do with the high degree of arrogance that exuded from many of the IAM observers in the early years.
Whereas I'd say that it's to do with the constant negative image being pushed out by arrogant people who aren't even up to date with the situation at the moment (oddly enough, not many members of the group I'm a member of are either "paunchy" or "bearded") and choose to describe an organisation that's doing a good job as "odious"
So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???
(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")
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So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???
(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")
For me you've just answered your own argument with your bracketed text.
It's the preaching aspect of it that puts me (and many others) off doing it, from RoSPA and the IAM both.
I'm all for people getting extra training, but to my mind unless it's DSA approved and regulated then it is exactly what you mentioned, just a group of blokes from down the pub sharing what they've picked up.
I know a few folk that have done it, accepted the advice as just that, not gospel, and felt far more confident with their own riding without feeling the urge the preach to the multiverse.
Others go on it, think it makes them invincible and denounce all non-believers as fools.
Usually just before they redecorate a field with their fairing.
I've also know folk that decry such groups as the work of all that is unholy, however, I'd entrust my entire family to their pillion seat.
As a wise man once said to me, the best training you can get is putting the miles in on your machine.
Be it on your own, in a small group or through a scheme such as IAM/RoSPA then I still believe that covering the distance is the way forward.
:groan
Through watching others you recognise what you're comfortable with, what is safe, what is sheer, unbridled madness (MOFF!!) ;) and what works to keep people safe.
No certificate at the end, no wee book, just the satisfaction of thousands of miles covered without incident.
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the group simply does not have enough Observers to assign new Associates to!
I really hate to point this out, but this really means that not enough people feel inclined to go on and become an observer, it's probably the reason you don't have enough. I wonder why that is? eh.
I know someone who's a member of a RoSPA group and says that it's "struggling to survive" at the moment.
From what you're saying about the 'Mobile Display Unit' the IAM seems to be struggling too. There you are, a perfect reason to form a new organisation from Rospa and IAM and start afresh with no beards or Belstaff products allowed.
the constant negative image being pushed out by arrogant people who aren't even up to date with the situation at the moment
You mean people in the IAM :lol
So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???
(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")
This is actually a good point, but it's the IAM's problem to sort out and not anybody elses problem. Trouble is, I and a lot of lother people feel that you won't ever get past the negative image. If people on forums and blokes down the pub are undermining the credibility of the IAM and you can't reverse it, then the IAM will continue to wither on the vine. This is the UK remember, negative images stick, it's the way it is.
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This seems to have fallen into an IAM discussion :)
So here's my views (if anyone cares :) )
My dad decided to go do the IAM thing, he'd been riding for years and wanted to see what all the fuss was about.
He learnt a lot, he passed his observation thingy and he bacame a fully fledged IAMer :thumbup
Then he went to a few more meets (the discussion kind, not the riding) and I went with him a few times, having just started to ride myself.
All we got were looks of distain from the people there, they obviously weren't ALL arrogant, but the ones that were definately made themselves heard.
To my then teenage innocent eyes, they seemed a very closed to 'outsiders' and both my dad and I noticed the looks they gave us both.
Needless to say, when his next subs were due, he didn't continue with it, which I feel was a shame.
It's a shame, because the majority of people there weren't stuck up, all the ones that my dad had contact with before were nice, friendly, helpful and
encouraged him. but the few that decided they were better than him, me and the rest of the world ruined it.
I should point out, this wasn't decades ago or anything, I'm 22, so it was about 7 years ago
Oh, I haven't mentioned the words beard or FJR, because my dad had both!! :lol
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I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread
I was just thinking that it suited you... :pokefun
It would have suited raymy boy more if it was rammed into his mouth :pokefun
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I don’t want to debate IAM as I am on record with my thoughts, but the biggest problem with it IMHO is it’s a STANDARD you can achieve and this means SOME members see this as a status.
I’ve rode with more IAM/Rospa than the average bear and most DSA based instructors are spot on ,but a FEW observers who only know their own system can be very dogmatic and again IMHO some of the things taught by IAM are just wrong (road positioning for corners for example ,great if you only doing an isolated corner very unhelpful if you doing a series of opposite direction bends) advanced training is there to give you a framework to ensure you stay safe or to revert to in stressful situations it’s not a set of rules to be observed unflinchingly.
That said training is better than no training but shop around
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Personally, I think any opportunity to learn anything helpful to your riding should be taken up. You can take what you think is useful to you, and leave the rest.
I rode alone for quite a long time, and never got my little bandit over 7k. The day I started riding with a motley group who shared only two things in common, one being their love of motorcycles, I really improved. Compared to me, the boys and girls all had vastly more saddle time. The bikes ranged from a fireblade to a vmax, although the smallest cc bike was mine. My mistakes (safety critical) were pointed out to me, along with helpful suggestions about how I could improve. I found that there were a few riders (both sexes) whose riding skill sets I wanted to have. After six months, I felt confident to handle a bigger and faster bike.
Speed limits were usually exceeded outside 30 zones (30 limits were never exceeded). The routes were planned and reconnoitered by one member before their turn to lead the weekly sunday rideout, and always included some nice high speed(able) sections. If you weren't into riding at speed, there wasn't any pressure to. Regular waypoints meant nobody got left behind. The route usually included a place of interest, or was to and from a coastal town, as sitting on a beach, even in winter, was a great weekly distraction from London for a lot of us. Another group also operated in the northern region.
One thing I learnt from these people, was that if you let what you thought other people may think of you, stop you from doing anything in life, then your life was going to be limited in experience. I found the comments about meaningful looks amusing. How do you define what a look means? :pokefun
I thought the major advantage of taking an IAM test/training or similar was not mentioned, in that these groups can get you a discount on your insurance. No matter how you think they look at you :lol
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So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???
(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")
For me you've just answered your own argument with your bracketed text.
It's the preaching aspect of it that puts me (and many others) off doing it, from RoSPA and the IAM both.
I'm all for people getting extra training, but to my mind unless it's DSA approved and regulated then it is exactly what you mentioned, just a group of blokes from down the pub sharing what they've picked up.
For me, you've just demonstrated that you're a bloke pontificating on the forums without any clue about what he's talking about.
To quote from the IAM site: (http://www.iam.org.uk/about-us/the-advanced-test/46-the-advanced-drivingriding-test)
The tests use the principles of advanced driving, pioneered and applied with great success by the Metropolitan Police, and are accredited by the Driving Standards Agency (DSA). All tests are taken by IAM Examiners who hold a Police Advanced Driving Certificate and have extensive experience working with Police Services throughout the UK.
Or do you think the IAM are lying?
Others go on it, think it makes them invincible and denounce all non-believers as fools.
Usually just before they redecorate a field with their fairing.
There are plenty of bikers who have redecorated the fields (or trees or cars or roadside furniture) with themselves because they think they're invincible *without* having taken any advanced training...
As a wise man once said to me, the best training you can get is putting the miles in on your machine.
Is it?
Someone who hasn't taken any other training other than passing their test might consider that the best way to take a right-hand bend is to get as close to the centre line and get their knee down. If they do it enough, they'll probably get very good at it.
The problem is that they're still in the "decapitation zone" and one day they'll do that on a blind corner, a lorry will come the other way, drift a bit wide and *splat*.
Practice is all well and good, but you have to be practicing the *RIGHT* things!
Through watching others you recognise what you're comfortable with, what is safe, what is sheer, unbridled madness (MOFF!!) ;) and what works to keep people safe.
Sure, provided you don't kill yourself *before* you figure all that out...
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the group simply does not have enough Observers to assign new Associates to!
I really hate to point this out, but this really means that not enough people feel inclined to go on and become an observer, it's probably the reason you don't have enough. I wonder why that is? eh.
Perhaps because some people don't want to, or because they're too busy, have too many other commitments, don't have the inclination, can't spare the time, feel they don't have the aptitude etc etc etc.
I've thought about doing it myself, but that's going to be a few years down the line yet.
I know someone who's a member of a RoSPA group and says that it's "struggling to survive" at the moment.
From what you're saying about the 'Mobile Display Unit' the IAM seems to be struggling too.
Err, WTF? How do you come to that conclusion based on the fact that the only reason they're not putting the MDU out there so much at the moment is that they can't handle the number of people who want to join??
The problem is "not enough Observers to do the training", not "not enough members".
There you are, a perfect reason to form a new organisation from Rospa and IAM and start afresh with no beards or Belstaff products allowed.
Fine, go ahead, you start it, get the funding, get charitable status, organise it, get it country-wide, publicise it and I'll happily join up!
Oh, sorry, you meant *someone else* should do this because you don't like the IAM and RoSPA...
So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???
(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")
This is actually a good point,
Thank you.
but it's the IAM's problem to sort out and not anybody elses problem. Trouble is, I and a lot of lother people feel that you won't ever get past the negative image. If people on forums and blokes down the pub are undermining the credibility of the IAM and you can't reverse it, then the IAM will continue to wither on the vine. This is the UK remember, negative images stick, it's the way it is.
Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?
Or perhaps I'll just keep posting in threads like this one and hope that people who are interested in advanced training will be able to look past the slagging off and go out and meet up with one of these groups and see for themselves what benefits they can get from it...
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All we got were looks of distain from the people there, they obviously weren't ALL arrogant, but the ones that were definately made themselves heard.
[...]
It's a shame, because the majority of people there weren't stuck up, all the ones that my dad had contact with before were nice, friendly, helpful and encouraged him. but the few that decided they were better than him, me and the rest of the world ruined it.
I'm sorry to hear that. Of course there are always going to be dickheads in any group (even on forums!) who think they're "better than thou" because of [insert specious reasoning here], the trick is not to let them get to you.
In any case, even though he's not a member any more, he'll still have the benefit of the training and I hope you have too :)
Oh, I haven't mentioned the words beard or FJR, because my dad had both!! :lol
But did he have them *before* joining the IAM or after? ;)
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a FEW observers who only know their own system can be very dogmatic
I won't deny that, doing it "by the book" is all very well, but even the book says that the System it teaches should be applied flexibly rather than dogmatically.
and again IMHO some of the things taught by IAM are just wrong (road positioning for corners for example ,great if you only doing an isolated corner very unhelpful if you doing a series of opposite direction bends)
I'm puzzled by this, I'd like to know what you mean here.
That said training is better than no training but shop around
I agree entirely.
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I did IAM's 2 years back now and for the training part enjoyed every min of it and got a lot from it.... i also left a some of it alone. i took from it what i found relevent to me and helpfull to me (which was most of it to be honest)
But the social side i found as others have said, very clossed and pompus i'm better than you attitude. but then i took it to improve my riding and not for the social side so this wasnt a big deal realy.
I would highly recomend extra training, rospa, iams, ride to arrive.... it dosent matter. anything that makes you "think" about the actions you take on the road is a good thing.
Am I better than some one that didnt take IAM's? foc no! every rider is diff and what they want from thier ride is diff. am i a better ridder now than before the training for how i ride? yes. but far from invinceable lol i still make mistakes, i still have "moments" and i still think affter doing something like that "ok your a tool, pay attention"
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Not pontificating, merely saying that it's the holier than thou attitude that puts myself and many others off.
My personal feeling is that as a charity of volunteers it won't carry as much clout for me as advanced instruction from DSA certified instructors will as the quality assurance procedures won't be as robust.
As for the point about knee down, fairly certain that isn't one of the approved procedures required for test, whereas machine control and correct positioning are.
If someone wants to get their knee down on the road, they will attempt it irrespective of any training, advanced or otherwise.
To step up onto the pontification step now, I believe mindset and experience are the key points here.
The IAM give you the ability to tap the experience of others, as well as providing the chance to gain experience.
Back to the putting miles in thing.
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Graham
the corner thing
During the war.....err no while I was training for my Cardington test with a ex copper DSA instructor , a IAM instructor with tagging along one day
The IAM guy was trying to pick me for poor road position (the ex cooper didn’t have a problem with me and walked off with his brew smiling) because I was not doggedly moving left for a right corner /right for a left corner etc.
What he could not take on board was these were shallow chicanes and not full corners so the better position was to go apex to apex as that allowed better vision but he just kept saying “well that’s not how we are taught “ rather than seeing if I might have something and trying my way before condemning it.
Its this mind set which just pushes my buttons lol
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Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?
Oh dear. Not quite the improvement in public relations I was hoping for.
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I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread
I was just thinking that it suited you... :pokefun
It would have suited raymy boy more if it was rammed into his mouth :pokefun
Aw aye eh?
On the whiskey much?
Don't see how stuffing a towel in my gob stops me typing
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You got voice recognition software Raymy...flash twat x
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Trev, we all know that voice recognition saftware disnae work wi a shire accent
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as a charity of volunteers it won't carry as much clout for me as advanced instruction from DSA certified instructors will as the quality assurance procedures won't be as robust.
To become an Observer you first of all have to be able to ride to a high standard, then you have to show that you can you can demonstrate that standard to an Associate. Remember, also, that an Observer is exactly that, they're not an Instructor nor are they expected to be.
As for "quality assurance", when I was doing my Direct Access, my Instructor had a visit from a DSA Inspector and got picked up for 1) His tax disc was on the left side of the fairing/ screen rather than down by the rear wheel 2) He was instructing on the bike he had his side lights on instead of the headlight (the side-lights on his BMW were bright enough to make him clearly visible) and 3) when he wasn't on the bike, he was wearing sandals instead of bike boots (because he didn't want to wear out the soles on an expensive pair of boots which aren't designed for lots of walking around)!
So not much wrong there with his instruction...!!
To step up onto the pontification step now, I believe mindset and experience are the key points here.
The IAM give you the ability to tap the experience of others, as well as providing the chance to gain experience.
Back to the putting miles in thing.
As I said, practicing the *right* things. There's nothing the IAM or anyone else can do to *stop* you trying to get your knee down if you want, but at least they can show you what you should be doing. Whether you choose to do it or not is your own business.
(Oh, and I've put in more miles in the last year or so since I joined the IAM and have been practicing for the test and going on ride-outs with them than I'd done in the previous three years! :) )
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The IAM guy was trying to pick me for poor road position (the ex cooper didn’t have a problem with me and walked off with his brew smiling) because I was not doggedly moving left for a right corner /right for a left corner etc.
What he could not take on board was these were shallow chicanes and not full corners so the better position was to go apex to apex as that allowed better vision but he just kept saying “well that’s not how we are taught “ rather than seeing if I might have something and trying my way before condemning it.
Its this mind set which just pushes my buttons lol
Hmm, well I've been told that if if you can see clearly through the corner (assuming there's no hidden "dead ground" where a vehicle might emerge from) then by all means feel free to "straighten the bends".
There's a series of "bends" on the Morestead Road down here which, if you get your position right at the start, you can virtually take a straight line through :)
Some IAM Observers are more anal than others, true, the one I have now is much more "f**k it, remember the book is only guidelines, if it's safe, do it!" :D
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Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?
Oh dear. Not quite the improvement in public relations I was hoping for.
Err, would you like to buy a new Irony Detector? Yours seems to be broken... :pokefun
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On the subject of advanced riding, somebody told me that you can corner faster, and smoother by pushing the bars in the opposite direction - I thought he was getting confused with opposite lock in sliding cars etc, but he swore it was true for bikes, I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?
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Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?
I seen the way you ride, you will end up in a field...........
camping with the rest of us at the BMF :P
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I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?
If you're steering a counter, you're probably going to end up in a shop! :b
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Sorry I havent logged in for a while, so lost the drift a bit. Graham, I was a qualified observer in a reasonable sized group, a group with more observers than associates tbh, which was one issue. The problem I encountered was not the attitude of the keen young recruits ( like thee ,and me back then) but the silly old tossers who just would not accept change. They were more right wing than david cameroon. And tbh their attitude killed it for me. Many younger guys just got their qualification and left. Maybe I should rejoin and see if its any better...but my suspicion is it wont be.
I do agree than biking needs an advanced training cadre , which while preaching some gospel, wont be bible bashing ! For my own end I did take away a lot of very crucial advanced riding tips, but also do agree that much can be interpreted and adopted a bit too parrot fashion. I evolved my riding style from a curious mixture of IAM,self education over 25 yrs of riding , race schools, books and lots of trackdays. An eclectic mix which maybe suited me, but not everyone..
My basic premise in replying to your post is a concern, that just maybe you put the IAM on a pedestal, that somehow riding at or even beyond your own limit is a good thing so long as its while doing an IAM/ police thing. My thoughts are, stand back, ride at yer own pace, glean the important stuff, develop your own riding style.
I have ridden with several police riders and tbh they dont ride that fast normally. They obviously have more talent than they always show, but tbh dont judge ability just by speed alone.....its safe riding at speed - they know when to back off ...and this is my whole point ......you have to build up to it, not just expect that having an IAM qualifies or even prepares you to ride fast.The single biggest thing I took away from the IAM, and my riding experience is ......have the courage and confidance to back off if you dont feel 100% comfortable. You dont get second chances at high speed.Trouble is, many folk see this as a weakness not a strength.
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On the subject of advanced riding, somebody told me that you can corner faster, and smoother by pushing the bars in the opposite direction - I thought he was getting confused with opposite lock in sliding cars etc, but he swore it was true for bikes, I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?
Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Not that knowing it necessarily makes one a better rider, but if you apply pressure to the bars to try to make them turn left the effect of the big gyro between your front forks is to tip the bike over to the right... exactly what you need to get round a right hander. Find an empty bit of straight road and try it (gently) if you don't believe it.
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My basic premise in replying to your post is a concern, that just maybe you put the IAM on a pedestal, that somehow riding at or even beyond your own limit is a good thing so long as its while doing an IAM/ police thing. My thoughts are, stand back, ride at yer own pace, glean the important stuff, develop your own riding style.
On a pedestal? No. On a higher step than those who haven't had any more training than what they needed to pass their basic test? Certainly, but I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.
As for "riding at or beyond your limit", the point is that you need to have some idea of where your limit *is* and, more importantly, what to do whilst you're there.
Once you know that, you can start to improve matters, my riding skills have increased noticeably since I started getting the advanced training through better observation and planning and improved control of the bike, such that my limits have extended.
The mistake I made was entirely my own, I wasn't concentrating on what *I* was doing and forgot the basic rule you're told of "Ride your own ride, you are responsible for your own riding decisions", it wasn't because I thought that I was some sort of riding god!
this is my whole point ......you have to build up to it, not just expect that having an IAM qualifies or even prepares you to ride fast.The single biggest thing I took away from the IAM, and my riding experience is ......have the courage and confidance to back off if you dont feel 100% comfortable. You dont get second chances at high speed.Trouble is, many folk see this as a weakness not a strength.
Sure, but, again, the point is that *any* advanced training should teach that. If someone thinks "I'm IAM trained I can ride fast now!" then they've learned the wrong message, because it should be the *appropriate* use of speed.
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Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.
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Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.
Ah. I did wonder, but have often met folks who ride yet don't know how they're doing it... so took his post at face value.
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Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.
trolled, suckered, and damn near rabbit punched ;)
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On a pedestal? No. On a higher step than those who haven't had any more training than what they needed to pass their basic test? Certainly, but I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.
There are other forms of training too. Riding around London on a moped is one, a very good 'training scheme' albeit rather more dangerous of course. When I was a DSA instructor in the mid nineties my school scored the local Pizza Hut contract to train up all their nasty little delivery boys on their C90s, we also took a lot of the trainee taxi cab drivers (also on C90s) who wanted to go on and get their full license. In terms of machine control and traffic positioning most of these guys were 10/10 -that's because they all rode in London and you have to be damn good in London traffic, but it doesn't take long to get good if you ride everyday in the 'smoke'.
I had little to get done with these sorts of students, basically just removing some bad habits, hammering home highway code and cooling down a few overly aggressive filtering techniques, but it was a very high pass rate. As for machine control, the Pizza boys had their own code of acceptability. This was usually put on display before my lessons started in the shape of one handed wheelies, stoppies, doughnuts (whilst facing backwards) and going round in a tight circle one handed wearing away a footpeg in a shower of sparks. You had to smile, I didn't mind as long as it stopped when I said so, they could do anything basically.
Most of these guys probably dumped biking as soon as they got a proper job, but the ones who went on certainly didn't need any advanced training and I think the same goes for most people who've ridden for a while in London.
I would say the complete training experience is a daily London/city commute, a bit of regular dirt track riding (initially with a tutor like Geoff Mayes for eg), a race school session or two and the odd track day. Then you are complete. The dirt tracking is a part that shouldn't be neglected I might add, it's the only safe way to discover your limits of control -not on the road.
You have to crash to learn*
*Geoff Mayes (said whilst wearing a plaster cast on both legs)
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Not one to always agree with ya Phil, but i have to say i fucking liked that last post.
I ride in Glasgow, not a patch on London i'm sure, but its got its moments. My confidence is good around the city in the tight spaces and through the traffic, and i can be quick and safe. I rarely have many harem scarems like most folk seem to describe in their daily's, but when i get a bit more space and freedom around me the confidence drops some, i'll have to admit, and that to my mind is mainly because of my lack of knowledge on the limits of me and the machine.
I don't ride with folk often, Beer Slag mainly, if ever, but as seldom as it happens, its always a bonus. And my one trip with the foccers soon after passing test left me with 3mm untouched at the sides of a brand new rear boot. All because of being out with folk and seeing how they do it. Folk except moff cos he was already away into next year before i caught up.
But, here's my point.
I really wanna do off road and flat/dirt track stuff to see how far it can go with all the variables of weight, momentum, grip, mentality etc etc etc cos i know it will do me good on the road. I wanna do tarmac track stuff as well obviously but the dirt biking thing really floats me boat
NOT THAT i'M SAYING I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR OTHER MORE OFFICIAL OR RECOGNISED OR ORGANISED TRAINING ROUTES OF COURSE before i gets assumed that i am dissing it or summat.
I wanna do it all, bikesafe, rospa, iam. Its all good to me, i don't care about images and members, it ain't gonna get in the way of me learning about riding, but i really fancy off road and stuff a bit more off the wall
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I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.
There are other forms of training too. Riding around London on a moped is one, a very good 'training scheme' albeit rather more dangerous of course.
[...] but the ones who went on certainly didn't need any advanced training and I think the same goes for most people who've ridden for a while in London.
Pardon my scepticism. Still, I'm sure that the biker featured in this video clip thinks he's a very good rider too and, no doubt he's been riding through London for ages.
knightsbridge.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wF-MsVAjnw#)
Personally I think the guy is a complete twunt and an accident waiting to happen.
You have to crash to learn
I'll have to tell that one to a friend who has had flying lessons...
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A nutter, he will always be quicker than me as long as his ( Ohh or her) luck stays with them.
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Pardon my scepticism. Still, I'm sure that the biker featured in this video clip thinks he's a very good rider too and, no doubt he's been riding through London for ages.
Personally I think the guy is a complete twunt and an accident waiting to happen.
You're probably right, but apart from slowing the pace down a bit there's nothing the IAM could teach him about London Traffic I'll bet.
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Grahamm
Couple of things...while I am no Keith Code....I have ridden very fast indeed in the past ..even been blackflagged once for speeding on a trackday :lol ...but I do see myself as being one of the lucky ones, being still here today ....many experiment and end in disaster.I put it down to not just having a guardian angel, but an ordered and self critical approach to my own bike training. If I want to develop a skill, I empirically do so, and search out sources of info. A bit diffrent to dodging traffic on mopeds for sure. I started off small and moved through various training schools.I suppose at one point I was " fast", maybe even felt impregnable, I was so " good" ...but it all ended when I had my big crash, a silly smidsy at legal speeds ( 40 mph). That really brought home just how terminal and disastrous for my family , any mistake I made would be at the daft road speeds I had done b4. A road to damascus moment I spose, and it really calmed my desire for speed for its sake alone.
Hence why I preach a bit when I maybe see guys who are what I was like when I was starting out , and why I chuck in my twopenneth to see if it helps at all....
I still like to ride fast , but do so at my bidding , in my environment, and call it a day when I choose to. It swhy I like to ride alone or in very small groups...so I call the shots.
My advice is to try atrackday, its agreat environment to build up yer speed, and tuition is available to help you learn braking points, apexes etc. You also will gain so much confidance in machine control and knowledge of what the bike can do. Hopefully this will help on the road, so if you do encounter that moment at the limit where you might have hesitated and gone a cropper, you will know just what both you an dthe bike can do.Its not something best learnt on the road itself (IMO)... and certainly stuff you wont get taught by the IAM. ! 8)
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A road to damascus
I always thought that was a national speed limit road
Hope you were equipped with the knobblies.
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apart from slowing the pace down a bit there's nothing the IAM could teach him about London Traffic I'll bet.
There's another thread on here "Am I liable" asking if the biker is responsible for damage caused when a cyclist comes out from behind a bus unexpectedly.
The twunt in that video wouldn't be responsible for damage, he'd probably be responsible for a KSI.
Knowing *about* the traffic and knowing what's *safe* to do in the traffic are two different things.
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Its not something best learnt on the road itself (IMO)... and certainly stuff you wont get taught by the IAM. ! 8)
So when the IAM group I'm a member of had a trackday at Cadwell Park earlier this year, I was fortunate that I was working that weekend because I wouldn't have learned anything from it? :rolleyes
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Knowing *about* the traffic and knowing what's *safe* to do in the traffic are two different things.
Thanks for pointing that out. I presume these nuggetts of amazing IAM enlightenment are written down somewhere, perhaps carved on stone tablets in a sort of IAM 'batcave' in a secret location (probably in the basement of the Daily Express)
I don't know why you posted that video, you seem to be trying to tout it as the antics of a typical London biker so that you can slag us all off. The video is not typical at all, I think we are all agreed it is just a twat who could be riding anywhere. It might even be an IAM observer/instructor/
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And some people want to tout the IAM as a bunch of over-weight pontificating beardies who clearly don't know anything about *real* riding and couldn't teach a London biker anything etc etc etc. :rolleyes
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Grahamm
Read my post again...I advocate using track days as a vehicle to learn about how to ride fast , and learn limit points , in relative safety...rather than using the road as ones experiment table ! :rolleyes
And yes, the IAM do not really teach how to ride fast . Their real mantra is safety, not speed.Always within the limit....which dont really prepare you if you do want to use the power of ur machine...
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Never meet a IAM member I,m not quicker than lol
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Ahh you can tell its winter when a simple post can turn in to an all out war :lol
done track day and done iams and learnt stuff from both, hell i learn from other riders, from forums from experiance..... i learn new stuff about riding allmost every ride and i have had a bike since i was 14 and stll have foc loads to learn as im FAR from good.
i think you have 2 main types of riders (with many sub types in the main 2 types) those that seek to learn more in anyway they can and those that think they allready know it all.
the basic tone of the thread once you get past the "iams are gods / iams are rubbish" crap is that most of us are in the i want to seek more knowlage type but are in the blinkered sub cat of but im picky where and who i learn it from :P
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Hmmm think i mite add summat here as with every thing in life from other you learn either good or bad it's your choice
many many moons ago in the days of proddie racing i learned there are always better riders indeed many of them observed from the gravel trap
one has to decide weather tiz ave it or be at work on monday and not in the infirmary
as to Iam for my part having followed may fair share some have been absolutly frighting(max comes to mind) others like davidjw a pleasure to follow
take from it and learn wot ya want free world lol
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i just watched that video... yeah the rider is a plank!!
what i can imagine some of the views in their mirrors would have been like i shudder to think!
cant tell what speeds they were doing or what kind of bike it was though..
funny how we are all asuming it was a bloke!
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And some people want to tout the IAM as a bunch of over-weight pontificating beardies who clearly don't know anything about *real* riding and couldn't teach a London biker anything etc etc etc. :rolleyes
Oi, I never said anything about them being overweight.
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Read my post again...I advocate using track days as a vehicle to learn about how to ride fast , [...]
And yes, the IAM do not really teach how to ride fast .
No, because, as you agree, that's what the track is for!
Their real mantra is safety, not speed.Always within the limit....which dont really prepare you if you do want to use the power of ur machine...
What they always say is "You are responsible for your own riding decisions".
The IAM won't tell you to exceed the limit, because that's illegal and they can't advocate people breaking the law. But if you want to "use the power of ur machine", far better to do it knowing about good positioning and road discipline rather than just getting out there and chucking it down the road when it all goes pear-shaped.
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the basic tone of the thread once you get past the "iams are gods / iams are rubbish" crap is that most of us are in the i want to seek more knowlage type but are in the blinkered sub cat of but im picky where and who i learn it from :P
Well I never said they were "gods", but I agree with the "seek more knowledge" point.
There's nothing wrong with being picky about who you learn from (when I did my DAS I phoned around various places until I found someone who wanted to teach me to ride a motorcycle rather than pass a test) and whilst there may be people out there who think they're better/ faster/ cooler than an advanced rider, I'd take anything they say with a pinch of salt until I see some proof.
But the point is it boils down to two questions:
1) Is getting advanced training a good thing?
2) If you read others slagging off advanced trainers, might that put you off getting advanced training?
If the answer to both of these is "Yes", there's a problem.
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2) If you read others slagging off advanced trainers, might that put you off getting advanced training?
No Graham, that's out of context, insert:- 'slagging off the IAM', nobody has slagged off advanced trainers in general on this thread, just the IAM.
And that's their problem, not other advanced trainers problem.
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1) Is getting advanced training a good thing?
2) If you read others slagging off advanced trainers, might that put you off getting advanced training?
If the answer to both of these is "Yes", there's a problem.
OK I am newly back on the road after a 10 year break. I was never a good rider just a commuter (10 miles round trip daily) with the occasional trip into Derbyshire for half a day so am finding my feet and would like to use my bike safer, especially as I intend to commute (64 miles daily) and use it to pop home to Cornwall at weekends 240 miles each way.
the question I have do I just ride it for a period of time and get used to enjoying my Fazer 600 or do I go straight in for an advanced riding course?
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Well depends ,if you need help with clutch ,gear change brakes etc I would just book a day or 2 with a training school .
Then go out and practice what you have learned and then seek advanced training as you will get more out of it (and won’t feel self conscience in front of other riders)
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2) If you read others slagging off advanced trainers, might that put you off getting advanced training?
No Graham, that's out of context, insert:- 'slagging off the IAM', nobody has slagged off advanced trainers in general on this thread, just the IAM.
Hmm: "It's the preaching aspect of it that puts me (and many others) off doing it, from RoSPA and the IAM both." - Aegis Bearing Mel.
And that's their problem, not other advanced trainers problem.
With respect, I think the problem is with those slagging them off. If someone doesn't like them or their methods or whatever, fine, that's up to them, but when someone starts posting inaccurate generalisations or thinking that because *they* don't like the IAM based on their personal perceptions (or should that be prejudices?) then the entire organisation should be disbanded, that's just getting ridiculous.
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the question I have do I just ride it for a period of time and get used to enjoying my Fazer 600 or do I go straight in for an advanced riding course?
After a 10 year break I'd suggest getting some Refresher Training before going for advanced training, you'll probably need to get back into the feel of the bike, basic control, dealing with traffic etc.
Check around your local area for bike training schools and see what they have to offer.
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i've been back in the saddle since July so got the hang of bike controls etc. in fact rode it back from croydon to Portsmouth when i bought it & have done bout 2k miles on it so far. alsorts of journeys from the daily commute to basingstoke and a trip from Portsmouth to Redruth so not totally new. maybe i'll wait till warmer weather & see how i get on
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Don't reckon that was really slagging them off, more saying why many are put off by them.
I'll happy slate them for man, many things, but getting people to think about their riding isn't one of them.
Still not convinced that many that go through it do apply it as a tool to analyse their riding though, but that's a can of worms I'm happy to leave unopened.
However, I'd still rather give my local training school a few more sheckles for some advanced training, but that's my choice.
Firm believer in you pays yer money and all that...
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but when someone starts posting inaccurate generalisations or thinking that because *they* don't like the IAM based on their personal perceptions (or should that be prejudices?) then the entire organisation should be disbanded, that's just getting ridiculous.
It's not a personal perception or prejudice, it's a view based on why others slag them off. It's the word on the street mate and nothing to do with what I bloody think.
Disbanding them? well why not, they are not exactly a great success.
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i've been back in the saddle since July so got the hang of bike controls etc. in fact rode it back from croydon to Portsmouth when i bought it
Ah, I didn't know you're local to me :)
Personally I'd recommend visiting the Solent Advanced Motorcyclists (http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/) group at Sarisbury Green for one of their "SAM Sunday" events (starting again in March). You get a free Assessed Ride and then you can consider signing up for the IAM Skills for Life package.
Of course others on here may have their own opinions about doing this, it's your choice :)
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thanks for that Grahamm I will defo do that, even if just for the assesment.
yeah I got digs in Waterlooville during the week!
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Grahamm/ABM
The whole ethos of the IAM ( and Roadcraft ) is that riding becomes a system based approach. It makes you analyse and plan all the time. I think its a great concept, and does work. What it does not do is teach machine control skills.This is IMO the " missing link" with simple IAM training. It creates in you the notion you are skilled, but in fact you may not be...especially if you start to push the envelope.IAM and Rospa all preach riding within the speed limit. The system does work at higher speed, but you dont get trained for it...hence even though one may pass the IAM, it is not a passport to being a fast rider.It means you have shown the ability to ride safely at speeds up to the limit.Its like passing your basic test without ever having driven on motorways!
Its why I push people to try trackdays, so you can push your own envelope in a higher degree of safety than on the road, learning about your bike and your own control skills. It dont change the system approach on the road though ...TBH once you start riding at high speed, its essential.
My other great concern, as already stated, is whether a new IAM passee can judge limits at high speed, and adopt restraint at the correct point ...since they have no experience of riding real roads at such speed. Developing this ability is down to ones own empirical approach and learning method. Yet the level of self confidance is that high ...it can blind you to your own needs.
There always is someone faster out there...its no shame to back off and go at your own pace.After all, you dont know whether that faster rider is skilled or is indeed outside their envelope and is moments from binning it.
On a completely lighter note.... was watching Top Gear in India last night ..and in the UK we may enjoy at least some degree of smugness over our road safety record....since in a single year over in curryland 196000 people are killed on the road !! FFS ! :eek ...makes awesome viewing seeing their roads...absolute bedlam! :lol
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FFS ! :eek ...makes awesome viewing seeing their roads...absolute bedlam! :lol
Ahh, it reminded me of my ride through Vietnam, the main coast road that runs north/south is the same sort of mayhem day and night. One thing that is hard to get used to on these sort of roads is that oncoming traffic has priority over motorcycles when overtaking. Imagine, you successfully overtake a slow moving lorry and the lane ahead is clear for half a mile then suddenly it fills up with a long line of lorrys/buses coming straight at you at 60mph, all you can do is move right over to the kerb where you have a couple of feet of space as they thunder past. Now imagine that all day, every time your lane is empty ahead, then imagine pouring monsoon rain, visibilty 40m and dchickens/cows/dogs/rats running around the road. And finally, imagine no choice but dog liver curry for dinner at the end of the day (not kidding)
Intereastingly, a system based riding technique doesn't work in asia, each and every second needs an instinct based decision. If you ride over there for a period of time, you can ride anywhere.
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The whole ethos of the IAM ( and Roadcraft ) is that riding becomes a system based approach. It makes you analyse and plan all the time. I think its a great concept, and does work. What it does not do is teach machine control skills.
Yes, I agree with this, which was why I was glad when my Observer sent me a copy of Full Control (http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf) which was something I'd been looking for since I started riding, ie a comprehensive and useful guide to how to actually *ride* the bike.
This is IMO the " missing link" with simple IAM training. It creates in you the notion you are skilled, but in fact you may not be...especially if you start to push the envelope.IAM and Rospa all preach riding within the speed limit.
As mentioned somewhere above, that is "preached" with a nod and a wink with comments like "when you're overtaking, you want to be looking at the road ahead, not down at the speedo", ie they can't *tell* you to exceed the limit, but if you want "make progress", provided you don't do it in an unsafe or inappropriate manner, you won't get told off for it.
Its like passing your basic test without ever having driven on motorways!
Which, of course, everyone does!
My other great concern, as already stated, is whether a new IAM passee can judge limits at high speed, and adopt restraint at the correct point ...since they have no experience of riding real roads at such speed. Developing this ability is down to ones own empirical approach and learning method. Yet the level of self confidance is that high ...it can blind you to your own needs.
Well "appropriate restraint" is one of the things that you're Observed on even before you take the test, plus you get to follow the Observer down various types of roads and watch how he rides them (just remember to ride your own ride otherwise you might end up in an embarrassing situation :o )
There always is someone faster out there...its no shame to back off and go at your own pace.After all, you dont know whether that faster rider is skilled or is indeed outside their envelope and is moments from binning it.
Sure, I don't disagree at all. On a ride out with the SAM group once, heading south on the A339 from Basingstoke, some Power Rangers came up behind us and proceeded to do stupid overtakes on blind bends, across double white lines etc. The consensus as we sat and chatted at the next break was "what a bunch of twunts!"
Nobody felt any inclination to try to emulate them.
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The consensus as we sat and chatted at the next break was "what a bunch of twunts!"
Nobody felt any inclination to try to emulate them.
What is this? So you need to be an IAM observer to know what bad riding looks like? Do you presume the rest of us don't know? It seems so, how patronizing can you IAM bigots get? And of course,the rest of the motorcycling fraternaty is not allowed to critisize the IAM are we?
Pease, please, please get it into your head Graham, nobody has an issue with advanced training, but a very large number of bikers old and new have issues with the IAM attitude to other bikers. What benefit is this to biking in general? -Answer -little.
And yes, it really is so bad that disbanding the whole organisation is a sensible option.
Start afresh.
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Yadda, yadda, yadda
:rolleyes
Fine, you don't like the IAM. I get that. I got that a long while ago in this thread, but you can't stop riding that hobby horse it seems and have to keep on telling people that you don't like the IAM just to make sure everyone knows it.
If you don't want to get IAM training, that's your choice, but if you "don't have a problem with advanced training" why do you persist in trying to put off anyone else who may be considering it with the IAM because of some perceived attitude from many years ago?
a very large number of bikers old and new have issues with the IAM attitude to other bikers.
Why do "new" bikers have "issues with the IAM attitude to other bikers"? Is it that they have actually experienced that "attitude" or is it just they've heard it on forums and in bike cafes from bikers who have big chips on their shoulders?
Is IAM training *so* bad that it is actually better for someone to get *no* advanced training rather than go with them? If so, you might have a point, but it isn't, so you don't.