A fun ride...

[Grahamm]

I had another IAM Observed Ride today and ended up following a Senior IAM Observer down the A272 and the Morestead Road at speeds, if not in excess of, certainly approaching R17¹... 

¹ R is a velocity measure, defined as a reasonable speed of travel that is consistent with health, mental wellbeing and not being more than say five minutes late. It is therefore clearly an almost infinitely variable figure according to circumstances, since the first two factors vary not only with speed taken as an absolute, but also with awareness of the third factor. Unless handled with tranquility this equation can result in considerable stress, ulcers and even death.
R17 is not a fixed velocity, but it is clearly far too fast.

- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

[BIG MAC]

Lucky I wasn't Moresteading at the same time I left a black stripe round cottage corner in the summer..downshifted a bit heavily and ragged it round...love that road

[Grahamm]

I did have one serious "Oh s$$t!" moment on a tight left hander when I was looking at his line rather than the corner, majorly over-cooked it and ended up running wide when I panicked and got target fixated on the upcoming scenery, then tried to brake instead of leaning it in! 

Fortunately there was nothing coming the other way at the time, so I leaned my thumb on the horn button as I managed to get it back on to the proper side of the road about a second before a car came the opposite direction...! 

This ride also made me start playing with the top left quadrant of the rev counter (something I don't normally do)  which might have been something to do with the fact that he was on a 1050 Tiger...

[BIG MAC]

Hmmm cottage corner is a bit like that as is the exit from the esses...trick is to come in from the other lane at the cottage if there's no traffic...you can get round there at about 45 while merrily soiling your pants...

[Raymy]

I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread

[Grahamm]

Hmmm cottage corner is a bit like that as is the exit from the esses...trick is to come in from the other lane at the cottage if there's no traffic...you can get round there at about 45 while merrily soiling your pants...

We were going eastbound and looking at the map on google this was in Belmore Lane approaching the crossroads with Salt Lane and Beeches Lane, just before it dips down and goes over the crest then drops down through the woods.

It could have been a lot worse than it was, but it was certainly a salutary learning experience!!

[Grahamm]

I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread

I was just thinking that it suited you...

[pitternator]

Its odd how you find such riding totally acceptable, wonder if you would similarly salute a sportsbike rider doing the same...or would there be sagacious tut tuts from the small throng of heavily bearded gentlemen...   
personally I keep my moments of high velocities to myself, as its really only me that I try to impress by doing such. 

[BIG MAC]

Salute them? fecks sake man...I am busy enough opening the approach, keeping my head high, modulating a trailing throttle and driving round them ...you want me to salute them tooo? ....It's a 60 limit... All the actions described are within the letter of the law...the angle of dangle is open to interpretation...
If and I say if I ever win a photo competition (unlikely) I think my suggested theme will be 'your favourite corner' I suspect this will result in images of prossies  etc.. but we are a highbrow forum lol

[Grahamm]

Its odd how you find such riding totally acceptable, wonder if you would similarly salute a sportsbike rider doing the same...or would there be sagacious tut tuts from the small throng of heavily bearded gentlemen...   

Where did the words "totally acceptable" come from? They're as accurate as describing me as "heavily bearded"!

FYI (despite the humorous quote from the HHGTTG) I only consider that sort of riding in *appropriate* places, ie not doing 60 in a 30 limit, not overtaking in dangerous places that cause other road users to have to change their speed or direction and generally not riding like a complete twunt.

There's also the point that I a) admitted that I made a mistake and b) I will *learn* from it rather than thinking "wow, that was good riding that let me recover from that" without changing my behaviour.

[pitternator]

The point graham is .... why is it IAM frown on other people exceeding the limit ...yet they are quite happy to do so themselves !
It was this double standards which put me off them 10 yrs ago...and yes they did have beards , and yes they truly believed/ boasted  that on their old pans they could "outride any blade" ...that is after pulling their paunches aside so they could get flat on the tank to coax another  mph from their bikes. I wont print what I thought of them but it rhymes with bankers ...
Of course its all changed since then.....

[Grahamm]

The point graham is .... why is it IAM frown on other people exceeding the limit ...yet they are quite happy to do so themselves !

You're absolutely right and those Police car drivers and bikers should also have to stick to the speed limit too...

Or perhaps it's knowing *when* it is safe to exceed the limit and being aware of *what* to look out for and understanding the difference between those and "Wow, I can ride fast, I must be a great biker!"

Of course its all changed since then.....

No, they still all hate you because you're so much cooler than them and you can ride better and... whatever...   

[PieEater]

A while back I went on a days rideout with my local IAM group which was open to anyone to join in on. The route was well chosen and I was really impressed how stragglers and those left behind because of traffic were steered back on course by 'tail end Charlies'. Although the general pace was slower that what I would normally ride at, I learned a lot by watching the riders observation and road placement and following in their 'footsteps', plus reigning in the throttle hand. Everyone within the group (IAM or otherwise) rode in an exemplary fashion and that day out will remain with me as one of the best I've had. I'm not minded to join the IAM because with 30 years riding with just 2 non fault offs I'm happy with my roadcraft , but I'd more than reccomend anyone take the opportunity to join in with a IAM rideout and then consider whether their riding would benefit from the training available. I'm pretty sure anyone riding like an idiot on a IAM rideout has an issue with the size of his todger which the the professionalism of the group cannot help him with.

[pitternator]

Graham
I dont see myself as cool. ..... Just dont brag about what I do. Police riders may have some immunity ref speed limits,if they are on duty, but usually on their own bikes, get same treatment as anyone else.They also have the benefit of much more training than you and I.
Personally if I do speed, its on my own, on roads I at least know well, and its entirely at my own risk.
12 yrs after pasing my IAM , if anything I am more cautious/ slower  than ever.I do think that  passing the IAM  can give you a feeling of smugness and invulnerability ..after all, how can accidents happen now I am so well trained ??.... trouble is, they may still do so. The wise owl stands back, takes on board all the safety points and rides at his or her own pace.

[Phil TK]

and yes they truly believed/ boasted  that on their old pans they could "outride any blade" ...that is after pulling their paunches aside so they could get flat on the tank to coax another  mph from their bikes. I wont print what I thought of them but it rhymes with bankers ...
Of course its all changed since then.....

 It's about time the IAM was disbanded I think, this organisation has had a disastrous and embarrasing image for a couple of decades now and it's simply not able to change peoples perception of it. This is very bad for motorcycling.
 Regularly, on all the forums I've frequented over the years a significant number of people have voiced dislike of the IAM and ironically of course, some of these same people would benefit from advanced training, but they don't go for it -because they don't like the IAM's image and image is important in motorcycling whether the beardy IAM people think so or not. No effort has been made to change this image as far as I can see and this smacks of an even deeper arrogance within the organisation.
 If the IAM is putting off people getting advanced training it's time for the organisation to go, it's self defeating. The instructors, many of whom are no doubt valuable teachers could work for similar less odious organisations and/or get behind the launch of a new one.
 Who is to blame? I would say a lot of it is to do with the high degree of arrogance that exuded from many of the IAM observers in the early years. Why they behaved like this I don't know, but I hope they realise what an awful legacy they propogated and what damage they did to rider training.
 
 

[Grahamm]

Personally if I do speed, its on my own, on roads I at least know well, and its entirely at my own risk.

Yes, and...?

The mistake I made that I detailed in the OP was my own fault, not because I was trying to do something someone else had done, but because I wasn't concentrating on what *I* was doing. As you're always told "Ride your own ride, you are responsible for all your own riding decisions".

It was a stupid loss of concentration, fortunately I got away with it and I certainly won't do it again.

I do think that  passing the IAM  can give you a feeling of smugness and invulnerability ..after all, how can accidents happen now I am so well trained ??.... trouble is, they may still do so.

As opposed to all the other people on the road who simply think "I've passed my driving test/ bike test, so I know everything I need to know..."?

At least with advanced training you've got a better idea of the risks involved.

[Grahamm]

It's about time the IAM was disbanded I think, this organisation has had a disastrous and embarrasing image for a couple of decades now and it's simply not able to change peoples perception of it. This is very bad for motorcycling.
 Regularly, on all the forums I've frequented over the years a significant number of people have voiced dislike of the IAM and ironically of course, some of these same people would benefit from advanced training, but they don't go for it -because they don't like the IAM's image and image is important in motorcycling whether the beardy IAM people think so or not. No effort has been made to change this image as far as I can see and this smacks of an even deeper arrogance within the organisation.

So when I, as an IAM Associate, try to "change this image" when others post their dislike of the IAM based on an outmoded impression of what the IAM is like, I should just give up and stop wasting my time and, instead, lobby for the IAM to be closed down?

If the IAM is putting off people getting advanced training it's time for the organisation to go

Oddly, my local group, the Solent Advanced Motorcyclists, have a Mobile Display Unit which they take out to various bike events and offer people free Assessed Rides and the opportunity to sign up.

Recently there has been discussion about *not* taking the MDU out, not because of some alleged negative image which is "putting people off getting advanced training", but because the group simply does not have enough Observers to assign new Associates to!

The instructors, many of whom are no doubt valuable teachers could work for similar less odious organisations and/or get behind the launch of a new one.

Like RoSPA, for instance? I know someone who's a member of a RoSPA group and says that it's "struggling to survive" at the moment.

Who is to blame? I would say a lot of it is to do with the high degree of arrogance that exuded from many of the IAM observers in the early years.

Whereas I'd say that it's to do with the constant negative image being pushed out by arrogant people who aren't even up to date with the situation at the moment (oddly enough, not many members of the group I'm a member of are either "paunchy" or "bearded") and choose to describe an organisation that's doing a good job as "odious"

So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???

(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")

[Aegis Bearing Mel]

So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???

(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")

For me you've just answered your own argument with your bracketed text.

It's the preaching aspect of it that puts me (and many others) off doing it, from RoSPA and the IAM both.
I'm all for people getting extra training, but to my mind unless it's DSA approved and regulated then it is exactly what you mentioned, just a group of blokes from down the pub sharing what they've picked up.

I know a few folk that have done it, accepted the advice as just that, not gospel, and felt far more confident with their own riding without feeling the urge the preach to the multiverse.
Others go on it, think it makes them invincible and denounce all non-believers as fools.
Usually just before they redecorate a field with their fairing.
I've also know folk that decry such groups as the work of all that is unholy, however, I'd entrust my entire family to their pillion seat.

As a wise man once said to me, the best training you can get is putting the miles in on your machine.

Be it on your own, in a small group or through a scheme such as IAM/RoSPA then I still believe that covering the distance is the way forward.

Through watching others you recognise what you're comfortable with, what is safe, what is sheer, unbridled madness (MOFF!!) and what works to keep people safe.

No certificate at the end, no wee book, just the satisfaction of thousands of miles covered without incident.

[Phil TK]

the group simply does not have enough Observers to assign new Associates to!

I really hate to point this out, but this really means that not enough people feel inclined to go on and become an observer, it's probably the reason you don't have enough. I wonder why that is? eh.

I know someone who's a member of a RoSPA group and says that it's "struggling to survive" at the moment.

From what you're saying about the 'Mobile Display Unit' the IAM seems to be struggling too. There you are, a perfect reason to form a new organisation from Rospa and IAM and start afresh with no beards or Belstaff products allowed.

 the constant negative image being pushed out by arrogant people who aren't even up to date with the situation at the moment

You mean people in the IAM 

So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???

(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")

This is actually a good point, but it's the IAM's problem to sort out and not anybody elses problem. Trouble is, I and a lot of lother people feel that you won't ever get past the negative image. If people on forums and blokes down the pub are undermining the credibility of the IAM and you can't reverse it, then the IAM will continue to wither on the vine. This is the UK remember, negative images stick, it's the way it is.

 

[tomjimtom]

This seems to have fallen into an IAM discussion
So here's my views (if anyone cares )
My dad decided to go do the IAM thing, he'd been riding for years and wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

He learnt a lot, he passed his observation thingy and he bacame a fully fledged IAMer 

Then he went to a few more meets (the discussion kind, not the riding) and I went with him a few times, having just started to ride myself.

All we got were looks of distain from the people there, they obviously weren't ALL arrogant, but the ones that were definately made themselves heard.

To my then teenage innocent eyes, they seemed a very closed to 'outsiders' and both my dad and I noticed the looks they gave us both.

Needless to say, when his next subs were due, he didn't continue with it, which I feel was a shame.

It's a shame, because the majority of people there weren't stuck up, all the ones that my dad had contact with before were nice, friendly, helpful and
encouraged him. but the few that decided they were better than him, me and the rest of the world ruined it.

I should point out, this wasn't decades ago or anything, I'm 22, so it was about 7 years ago

Oh, I haven't mentioned the words beard or FJR, because my dad had both!!

[mickdel]

I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread

I was just thinking that it suited you...

It would have suited raymy boy more if it was rammed into his mouth 

[bigralphie]

I don’t want to debate IAM as I am on record with my thoughts, but the biggest problem with it IMHO is it’s a STANDARD you can achieve and this means SOME members see this as a status.
I’ve rode with more IAM/Rospa than the average bear and most DSA based instructors are spot on ,but a FEW observers who only know their own system can be very dogmatic and again IMHO some of the things taught by IAM are just wrong (road positioning for corners for example ,great if you only doing an isolated corner very unhelpful if you doing a series of opposite direction bends) advanced training is there to give you a framework to ensure you stay safe or to revert to in stressful situations it’s not a set of rules to be observed unflinchingly.
That said training is better than no training but shop around

[mickdel]

Personally,  I think any opportunity to learn anything helpful to your riding should be taken up.    You can take what you think is useful to you, and leave the rest.
I rode alone for quite a long time,  and never got my little bandit over 7k.   The day I started riding with a motley group who shared only two things in common,  one being their love of motorcycles,  I really improved.   Compared to me, the boys and girls all had vastly more saddle time.     The bikes ranged from a fireblade to a vmax,  although the smallest cc bike was mine.     My mistakes (safety critical) were pointed out to me, along with helpful suggestions about how I could improve.   I found that there were a few riders (both sexes) whose riding skill sets I wanted to have.    After six months, I felt confident to handle a bigger and faster bike.     
Speed limits were usually exceeded outside 30 zones (30 limits were never exceeded). The routes were planned and reconnoitered by one member before their turn to lead the weekly sunday rideout, and always included some nice high speed(able) sections.  If you weren't into riding at speed,  there wasn't any pressure to.  Regular waypoints meant nobody got left behind.   The route usually included a place of interest, or was to and from a coastal town, as sitting on a beach, even in winter, was a great weekly distraction from London for a lot of us.    Another group also operated in the northern region.
One thing I learnt from these people,  was that if you let what you thought other people may think of you,  stop you from doing anything in life,  then your life was going to be limited in experience.   I found the comments about meaningful looks amusing.  How do you define what a look means? 
I thought the major advantage of taking an IAM test/training or similar was not mentioned,  in that these groups can get you a discount on your insurance.  No matter how you think they look at you 

[Grahamm]

So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???

(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")

For me you've just answered your own argument with your bracketed text.

It's the preaching aspect of it that puts me (and many others) off doing it, from RoSPA and the IAM both.
I'm all for people getting extra training, but to my mind unless it's DSA approved and regulated then it is exactly what you mentioned, just a group of blokes from down the pub sharing what they've picked up.

For me, you've just demonstrated that you're a bloke pontificating on the forums without any clue about what he's talking about.

To quote from the IAM site:

The tests use the principles of advanced driving, pioneered and applied with great success by the Metropolitan Police, and are accredited by the Driving Standards Agency (DSA). All tests are taken by IAM Examiners who hold a Police Advanced Driving Certificate and have extensive experience working with Police Services throughout the UK.

Or do you think the IAM are lying?

Others go on it, think it makes them invincible and denounce all non-believers as fools.
Usually just before they redecorate a field with their fairing.

There are plenty of bikers who have redecorated the fields (or trees or cars or roadside furniture) with themselves because they think they're invincible *without* having taken any advanced training...

As a wise man once said to me, the best training you can get is putting the miles in on your machine.

Is it?

Someone who hasn't taken any other training other than passing their test might consider that the best way to take a right-hand bend is to get as close to the centre line and get their knee down. If they do it enough, they'll probably get very good at it.

The problem is that they're still in the "decapitation zone" and one day they'll do that on a blind corner, a lorry will come the other way, drift a bit wide and *splat*.

Practice is all well and good, but you have to be practicing the *RIGHT* things!

Through watching others you recognise what you're comfortable with, what is safe, what is sheer, unbridled madness (MOFF!!) and what works to keep people safe.

Sure, provided you don't kill yourself *before* you figure all that out...

[Grahamm]

the group simply does not have enough Observers to assign new Associates to!

I really hate to point this out, but this really means that not enough people feel inclined to go on and become an observer, it's probably the reason you don't have enough. I wonder why that is? eh.

Perhaps because some people don't want to, or because they're too busy, have too many other commitments, don't have the inclination, can't spare the time, feel they don't have the aptitude etc etc etc.

I've thought about doing it myself, but that's going to be a few years down the line yet.

I know someone who's a member of a RoSPA group and says that it's "struggling to survive" at the moment.

From what you're saying about the 'Mobile Display Unit' the IAM seems to be struggling too.

Err, WTF? How do you come to that conclusion based on the fact that the only reason they're not putting the MDU out there so much at the moment is that they can't handle the number of people who want to join??

The problem is "not enough Observers to do the training", not "not enough members".

There you are, a perfect reason to form a new organisation from Rospa and IAM and start afresh with no beards or Belstaff products allowed.

Fine, go ahead, you start it, get the funding, get charitable status, organise it, get it country-wide, publicise it and I'll happily join up!

Oh, sorry, you meant *someone else* should do this because you don't like the IAM and RoSPA...

So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???

(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")

This is actually a good point,

Thank you.

but it's the IAM's problem to sort out and not anybody elses problem. Trouble is, I and a lot of lother people feel that you won't ever get past the negative image. If people on forums and blokes down the pub are undermining the credibility of the IAM and you can't reverse it, then the IAM will continue to wither on the vine. This is the UK remember, negative images stick, it's the way it is.

Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?

Or perhaps I'll just keep posting in threads like this one and hope that people who are interested in advanced training will be able to look past the slagging off and go out and meet up with one of these groups and see for themselves what benefits they can get from it...