old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: BorisTheThird on 23 October 2013, 02:48:01 pm
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My bikes broken (http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/cry2.gif)
its something to do with charging the battery.
if i start the bike and then disconnect the battery it cuts out.
tested the resistance of the alternator coils and all three are reading at 0.6 ohms (the spec is 3.36 - 4.4 ohms). this is out of spec, though all three are evenly so. There is no continuity to earth.
Mr Haynes says i cant test the rectifier, i can either swap it for a known good one or take it to a yam dealer to do it.
any ideas what to do next?
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Why on earth would you disconnect the battery with the engine running in the first place? :rolleyes
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i had taken the battery out to charge, and hooked it up to a 12v power supply
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
The 12v supply was a battery charger, so giving out 13v anyway, wanted to see what the fazer is giving though.
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
The 12v supply was a battery charger, so giving out 13v anyway, wanted to see what the fazer is giving though.
....the only reading you can get from your fazer is through your battery?..that will show what your charging system is doing??...so the battery as ...got...to be connected :rolleyes ......
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when the bike is giving out the voltege, it will give the PD across the battery connectors, weather there is a battery there or not
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when the bike is giving out the voltege, it will give the PD across the battery connectors, weather there is a battery there or not
.....well?...think this one is for the lecy geniuses on here either ...unfazed or fazerider"...ime sure they will help you out?
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If it was me I'd put the battery back in and push or jump start the bike. Then hook up the meter and check if the bike is charging the battery or not.
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If it was me I'd put the battery back in and push or jump start the bike. Then hook up the meter and check if the bike is charging the battery or not.
....+2...and he,s from ireland!! :D ...come on dude" am waiting for it??
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:z
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Off the top of my head only a dynamo will generate without haveing a voltage applied to it and most if not all charging systems these days are alternators which require a battery connected to work or have I totally missed the point?
Andy
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Off the top of my head only a dynamo will generate without haveing a voltage applied to it and most if not all charging systems these days are alternators which require a battery connected to work or have I totally missed the point?
Andy
...thats what i think too andy!!...and ime sure you should not disconnect whilst engine running :rolleyes ....ime also thinking if the rectifier wasnt fkd before?...it may be now!!!!!!...ime sure the unfazed wizard will be along shortly to put us right?
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:z
.....What?...not even a f.ck off wanker? :lol ......
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stuck the battery back in
bike off - 12.2v
when the bike was started it started about the same and dropped as the rpm increased.
this implies the charging is not working, stator tested correctly - going to try fitting a friend's rectifier tomorrow.
not going to try taking more readings tonight neighbours are getting home and my exhaust is a bit holey.
cheers peeps
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Off the top of my head only a dynamo will generate without haveing a voltage applied to it and most if not all charging systems these days are alternators which require a battery connected to work or have I totally missed the point?
Andy
the alternator is just a coil (or three) of wire with a magnet spinning alongside it. a magnetic field moving across a conductor will induce a current in that coil.
Off the top of my head only a dynamo will generate without haveing a voltage applied to it and most if not all charging systems these days are alternators which require a battery connected to work or have I totally missed the point?
Andy
...thats what i think too andy!!...and ime sure you should not disconnect whilst engine running :rolleyes ....ime also thinking if the rectifier wasnt fkd before?...it may be now!!!!!!...ime sure the unfazed wizard will be along shortly to put us right?
would turning the ignition off not essentially do the same - causing a brake in the circuit.
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:z
.....What?...not even a f.ck off wanker? :lol ......
Nah not my style. Have you ever been to Ireland? You seem to have a keen interest in the place
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stuck the battery back in
bike off - 12.2v
when the bike was started it started about the same and dropped as the rpm increased.
this implies the charging is not working, stator tested correctly - going to try fitting a friend's rectifier tomorrow.
not going to try taking more readings tonight neighbours are getting home and my exhaust is a bit holey.
cheers peeps
....if it does turn out your rectifier is goosed i have a spare i will let you have cheap?...pm me if you need it ;) ..clive.
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:z
.....What?...not even a f.ck off wanker? :lol ......
Nah not my style. Have you ever been to Ireland? You seem to have a keen interest in the place
....yes matey southern ireland"..years ago lovely place and people ;) ...met a irish girl there was together 8yrs till she got killed on a bike!!..over here in england :( ......
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Sorry to hear that. You should come back. There's some great biking roads here
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stuck the battery back in
bike off - 12.2v
when the bike was started it started about the same and dropped as the rpm increased.
this implies the charging is not working, stator tested correctly - going to try fitting a friend's rectifier tomorrow.
not going to try taking more readings tonight neighbours are getting home and my exhaust is a bit holey.
cheers peeps
....if it does turn out your rectifier is goosed i have a spare i will let you have cheap?...pm me if you need it ;) ..clive.
Cheers, ill let you know
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Sorry to hear that. You should come back. There's some great biking roads here
....yes may do one day?....she came from a place called templmore near i think it was tipperary? do you know it?...think it was called that?..it was nearly 30yr ago :rolleyes
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Yeah that's in Tipperary.
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected ;)
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Foccers :)
Under no circumstances should you remove the battery with the engines running on alternator based systems, especially on bikes (or cars) with ECUs and Electronic Regulators. :eek The systems are not designed to run without the battery. The fazer has an ECU and an electronic rectifier/regulator which is normally called the Regulator. Fazer Alternators are 3 phase Alternating Current (AC) devices and the AC is converted by the Rectifier to direct current (DC) and the Regulator controls the DC output based on the battery condition and electrical load.You will most likely fry the Regulator and after frying that you are likely to fry the ECU and then the Alternator. Lucky for you the bike stopped and the worst you may have done is fry the Rectifier/Regulator unless you have a faulty alternator, in which case you are lucky.Disconnect the plug from the regulator and the resistance between the white wire connectors should be between 0.36 to 0.44 Ohms. (Don't know where you got you info. from) :thumbdown There should be no reading from the white wire connectors to the frame (earth). If the resistance is higher the output will be lower and if there is continuity to earth output will be lower again.Your reading is on the high side but could be from a bad connection between the meter and the connectors.The resistance readings on their own are not enough to prove the alternator is good. You could have insulation break down when under load or when hot. Set the meter to AC and with everything connected start the bike and check the voltage between the white wires; (push the meter leads (carefully) into the back of the plug) it should read around 18 to 20 volts AC. With the engine running at tick over the voltage across the battery should read over 12v and go up to an absolute maximum of 14.4 when the engine is revved over 5000 revs. If the voltage does not increase and you have 19 to 20v AC from the alternator then the regulator is faulty.
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected ;)
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected ;)
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
....read what unfazed has just posted previous page?
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected ;)
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
....read what unfazed has just posted previous page?
Yes,as mine was kinda 'The Sun' readers version. :lol
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ime no electrical wizard but ive always been under the impression that you should never disconnect a battery whilst engine running can do all sorts of damage?...all you got to do is leave in situ and connect a meter across the batt terminals and see what it reads both on idle then when its reved to 3 t 4thou it should be approx 14.2 + at about 4thou...little less with lights etc loaded up!!...unfazed or fazerider will give you the correct figures ;)
Yep a very bad idea disconnecting battery while engine running,if you have an alternator.
Whilst you may well get away with it at tickover (if you're lucky), there's a good chance of blowing the regulator as you've excess power with nowhere to go without a battery to soak it up.... & if your regulator goes( without a battery as well!) you're in with a really good chance of screwing up something expensive as the charging voltage skyrockets.
Please keep the battery connected ;)
Carefully Check ALL charging circuit connectors are clean & not loose before you go any further.... will save unecessary expense in replacing good parts, don't ask how i know that :o
but surely without the battery there is no circuit, so current cannot flow
....read what unfazed has just posted previous page?
Yes,as mine was kinda 'The Sun' readers version. :lol
...soz old school ment you too? ;) .....
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:lol :lol :lol
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A serious misunderstanding of alternator based charging systems here. :wall The battery and the load is what the regulator looks at to determine the charging rate. The battery is part of the charging circuit. Take the battery out and the regulator will increase its output trying to charge a non existent battery which will fry the regulator and if it short circuits internally it will put 20 volts AC out to the load and fry the ECU and then fry the Alternator insulation.
Ignore the warnings as your peril :moon
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Foccers :)
Under no circumstances should you remove the battery with the engines running on alternator based systems, especially on bikes (or cars) with ECUs and Electronic Regulators. :eek The systems are not designed to run without the battery. The fazer has an ECU and an electronic rectifier/regulator which is normally called the Regulator. Fazer Alternators are 3 phase Alternating Current (AC) devices and the AC is converted by the Rectifier to direct current (DC) and the Regulator controls the DC output based on the battery condition and electrical load.You will most likely fry the Regulator and after frying that you are likely to fry the ECU and then the Alternator. Lucky for you the bike stopped and the worst you may have done is fry the Rectifier/Regulator unless you have a faulty alternator, in which case you are lucky.Disconnect the plug from the regulator and the resistance between the white wire connectors should be between 0.36 to 0.44 Ohms. (Don't know where you got you info. from) :thumbdown There should be no reading from the white wire connectors to the frame (earth). If the resistance is higher the output will be lower and if there is continuity to earth output will be lower again.Your reading is on the high side but could be from a bad connection between the meter and the connectors.The resistance readings on their own are not enough to prove the alternator is good. You could have insulation break down when under load or when hot. Set the meter to AC and with everything connected start the bike and check the voltage between the white wires; (push the meter leads (carefully) into the back of the plug) it should read around 18 to 20 volts AC. With the engine running at tick over the voltage across the battery should read over 12v and go up to an absolute maximum of 14.4 when the engine is revved over 5000 revs. If the voltage does not increase and you have 19 to 20v AC from the alternator then the regulator is faulty.
couple of things, do you know how the rectifier works, i was expecting just a simple bridge rectifier, capacitor and a voltage regulator. but from what you say its more involved.
also, would a flat battery or blown main fuse no cause the same issue?
ive tested the voltege output from the stator, got about 90v (which is what someone on another forum says i should be expecting)
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No,Not a bridge rectifier~
reg/rectifier is a 3 phase rectifier coupled with a voltage regulator circuit all in one unit. think they're a bit more technical than the used to be ~Unfazed?
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The forum is very educational, electrical principles part z.
Ok onward, I'm listening not falling asleep after being to pub at dinner as I did in my college days lol
Andy
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No,Not a bridge rectifier~
reg/rectifier is a 3 phase rectifier coupled with a voltage regulator circuit all in one unit. think they're a bit more technical than the used to be ~Unfazed?
so simmiler to this?
(http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/diagram.jpg[/mg])
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My bikes broken ([url]http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/cry2.gif[/url])
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Mr Haynes says i cant test the rectifier, i can either swap it for a known good one or take it to a yam dealer to do it....
Mr Haynes also says "caution: never disconnect the battery cables from battery whilst the engine is running...." Hmmm.....just maybe he's onto something. :evil
However,
Mr Yamaha says:( & he should know i guess ;) )
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8)
In the official factory manual,yes you can test the rectifier, download & have a good read of the electical section.
Whatever "this" was in last post it's not showing on my computer.???
Not being funny Boris, but i'd be more bothered 'bout fixing my bike than debating every point brought up, there a helpful lot here,& they're only trying to help. :\
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Usually 18 to 20 v AC is at tickover and is could be as low as 17 and as high as 25 depending on the tickover speed. The AC voltage levels increase dramatically as the revs increase, it could increase to 100 v AC +, which is why I would not recommend testing it higher than say 2000 revs unless you have the proper meter with the proper insulation ratings. I don't know what the Fazer ones go to as I never at any reason to try.
The Alternator is a 3 phase unit and requires 6 diodes to convert it to DC. The reason 3 phase is used is that it gives a smother DC output before the addition of capicators and maybe coils to smooth it to a clean DC. See first Picture.
The regulation can contain some complex electronics to control the regulation of the voltage under various load condition. The second picture is an example of one of the newer type Japanese rectifier/regulator. A bit more involved than the old single phases bridge rectifier circuit :)
In answer to the question, yes a blown main fuse can cause the same problem.
A flat battery would have the same effect, but not as quickly as a blown fuse or disconnected battery. That is the reason why you should change a battery that goes flat regularly as it puts more load on the regulator.
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Im lost, Ill just stick to cleaning mine!!
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Im lost, Ill just stick to cleaning mine!!
:agree
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My bikes broken ([url]http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/cry2.gif[/url])
....
Mr Haynes says i cant test the rectifier, i can either swap it for a known good one or take it to a yam dealer to do it....
Mr Haynes also says "caution: never disconnect the battery cables from battery whilst the engine is running...." Hmmm.....just maybe he's onto something. :evil
However,
Mr Yamaha says:( & he should know i guess ;) )
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8[/url])
In the official factory manual,yes you can test the rectifier, download & have a good read of the electical section.
Whatever "this" was in last post it's not showing on my computer.???
Not being funny Boris, but i'd be more bothered 'bout fixing my bike than debating every point brought up, there a helpful lot here,& they're only trying to help. :\
Thanks, not trying to be annoying, just trying to understand how things work (i cant fix the bike till tomorrow now so m stuck inside on the pc :P)
and in the last post i was trying to post the first picture in this
http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm (http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm)
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Im lost, Ill just stick to cleaning mine!!
Any chance you could come and clean mine :rollin
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Any chance you could come and clean mine :rollin
Ill trade ya next time i have an electrical problem!! ;)
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:lol :lol :lol
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My bikes broken ([url]http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/cry2.gif[/url])
....
Mr Haynes says i cant test the rectifier, i can either swap it for a known good one or take it to a yam dealer to do it....
Mr Haynes also says "caution: never disconnect the battery cables from battery whilst the engine is running...." Hmmm.....just maybe he's onto something. :evil
However,
Mr Yamaha says:( & he should know i guess ;) )
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8[/url])
In the official factory manual,yes you can test the rectifier, download & have a good read of the electical section.
Whatever "this" was in last post it's not showing on my computer.???
Not being funny Boris, but i'd be more bothered 'bout fixing my bike than debating every point brought up, there a helpful lot here,& they're only trying to help. :\
Thanks, not trying to be annoying, just trying to understand how things work (i cant fix the bike till tomorrow now so m stuck inside on the pc :P)
and in the last post i was trying to post the first picture in this
[url]http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm[/url] ([url]http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm[/url])
Ok,no worries.
& yes similar to that diagram.
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Well I'm learning things I hope I'll never need to know, but then I know lots of things that nobody needs to know.
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My bikes broken ([url]http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/cry2.gif[/url])
Mr Haynes says i cant test the rectifier, i can either swap it for a known good one or take it to a yam dealer to do it....
Mr Haynes also says "caution: never disconnect the battery cables from battery whilst the engine is running...." Hmmm.....just maybe he's onto something. :evil
However,
Mr Yamaha says:( & he should know i guess ;) )
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8[/url])
In the official factory manual,yes you can test the rectifier, download & have a good read of the electical section.
Whatever "this" was in last post it's not showing on my computer.???
Not being funny Boris, but i'd be more bothered 'bout fixing my bike than debating every point brought up, there a helpful lot here,& they're only trying to help. :\
Thanks, not trying to be annoying, just trying to understand how things work (i cant fix the bike till tomorrow now so m stuck inside on the pc :P)
and in the last post i was trying to post the first picture in this
[url]http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm[/url] ([url]http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm[/url])
Ok,no worries.
& yes similar to that diagram.
Thanks :)
Well I'm learning things I hope I'll never need to know, but then I know lots of things that nobody needs to know.
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Im learning thing i really should know, i deal with these (ish) in my job - just 50kv AC - 650v DC ones :eek
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Well I'm learning things I hope I'll never need to know, but then I know lots of things that nobody needs to know.
...hope t fk it doesnt involve paul and dolly" :b :b :b :b :b
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When it comes to Paul and Dolly there are lots of things I don't want to know at my young age;D
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In the old brit bike world lots of people run bikes without batteries, they use the Boyer ignition box set up.
I have a Honda Innova which will start and run with no battery on it, but I caveat that with you have to use the kick start and the clocks don't work unless you connect the battery.
Oddly enough you can take the battery off and kick it up and it starts just as easily as if it had a battery on it.
And the main headlight is on permanently (you can't turn it off).
Although maybe it's been specifically designed like that for places where there is no way of charging a battery up.
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FWIW, the generator on the Fazer (and most bikes) is a magneto i.e. an alternator using permanent magnets. The term alternator just means ac generator, but is generally used to refer to those that use electromagnets rather than permanent ones to provide the magnetic field: they're bulkier but more efficient and are what cars use.
In theory, disconnecting the battery while the engine is running needn't cause a disaster. The regulator will continue to limit the peak voltage and, while the rectified ac will be very lumpy without a battery, the ignition should cope. However, it's not something I'd care to try and I agree with all the advice you've been given: as a diagnostic technique it stinks. If the regulation had failed volts could rise high enough to nuke the ignition unit and instruments.
The stator coils should measure 0.36 to 0.44 ohms so yes, yours sound about right (you'll probably be within spec if you subtract the measurement you get when shorting the multimeter leads together).
If the battery charger you used as a supply is a simple transformer and rectifier type, then the volts dipping to zero fifty or a hundred times a second would probably have starved the ignition and that is what stopped the engine in your test.
Provided there's decent continuity in the rest of the charging circuit then I'd agree the rectifier is probably to blame.
The easiest way to check is by substitution. I've never tried testing mine, my Yamaha manual doesn't give details, but if is a simple bridge rectifier and shunt regulator arrangement it should be easy to check. On the other hand, if it uses SCRs in the bridge to reduce the power the thing has to dissipate when the magneto is at full output I'll agree with Mr Haynes that it's too complicated to test with a multimeter.
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FWIW, the generator on the Fazer (and most bikes) is a magneto i.e. an alternator using permanent magnets. The term alternator just means ac generator, but is generally used to refer to those that use electromagnets rather than permanent ones to provide the magnetic field: they're bulkier but more efficient and are what cars use.
In theory, disconnecting the battery while the engine is running needn't cause a disaster. The regulator will continue to limit the peak voltage and, while the rectified ac will be very lumpy without a battery, the ignition should cope. However, it's not something I'd care to try and I agree with all the advice you've been given: as a diagnostic technique it stinks. If the regulation had failed volts could rise high enough to nuke the ignition unit and instruments.
The stator coils should measure 0.36 to 0.44 ohms so yes, yours sound about right (you'll probably be within spec if you subtract the measurement you get when shorting the multimeter leads together).
If the battery charger you used as a supply is a simple transformer and rectifier type, then the volts dipping to zero fifty or a hundred times a second would probably have starved the ignition and that is what stopped the engine in your test.
Provided there's decent continuity in the rest of the charging circuit then I'd agree the rectifier is probably to blame.
The easiest way to check is by substitution. I've never tried testing mine, my Yamaha manual doesn't give details, but if is a simple bridge rectifier and shunt regulator arrangement it should be easy to check. On the other hand, if it uses SCRs in the bridge to reduce the power the thing has to dissipate when the magneto is at full output I'll agree with Mr Haynes that it's too complicated to test with a multimeter.
Yeah......that's what i was gonna say :thumbup
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I find it's all so obvious once somone else has said it:D
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FWIW, the generator on the Fazer (and most bikes) is a magneto i.e. an alternator using permanent magnets. The term alternator just means ac generator, but is generally used to refer to those that use electromagnets rather than permanent ones to provide the magnetic field: they're bulkier but more efficient and are what cars use.
In theory, disconnecting the battery while the engine is running needn't cause a disaster. The regulator will continue to limit the peak voltage and, while the rectified ac will be very lumpy without a battery, the ignition should cope. However, it's not something I'd care to try and I agree with all the advice you've been given: as a diagnostic technique it stinks. If the regulation had failed volts could rise high enough to nuke the ignition unit and instruments.
The stator coils should measure 0.36 to 0.44 ohms so yes, yours sound about right (you'll probably be within spec if you subtract the measurement you get when shorting the multimeter leads together).
If the battery charger you used as a supply is a simple transformer and rectifier type, then the volts dipping to zero fifty or a hundred times a second would probably have starved the ignition and that is what stopped the engine in your test.
Provided there's decent continuity in the rest of the charging circuit then I'd agree the rectifier is probably to blame.
The easiest way to check is by substitution. I've never tried testing mine, my Yamaha manual doesn't give details, but if is a simple bridge rectifier and shunt regulator arrangement it should be easy to check. On the other hand, if it uses SCRs in the bridge to reduce the power the thing has to dissipate when the magneto is at full output I'll agree with Mr Haynes that it's too complicated to test with a multimeter.
Yeah......that's what i was gonna say :thumbup
I find it's all so obvious once somone else has said it:D
....yes me too ;) ...just wanted unfazed and fazerider to confirm what i realy knew already?...but like darrsi i dont like bragging :rolleyes ....that bloke haynes" knows fk all :\
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Got any further on diagnosis & cure yet Boris?
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How's this sound for testing the reg/rect?
Disconnect Red output lead,stick mulitmeter across output on 20v ish a/c voltage range~ run bike, but keep revs to a minimum, if ac voltage shows, rectifier part is swiss cheese~ chuck in nearest wheely bin.
If no a/c switch to dc voltage range~ & check it's in the ballpark of 12-15v.ish.
Stop engine &Reconnect output lead,then test regulator circuit as per factory manual with engine running.
Please DO NOT try 'til one of our more knowledgeable members has commented~ It's a plan, but it may be flawed ;)
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oh yes, sorry for the lack of response, got the new rectifier on which fixed it the charging
until... I noticed a sparks from the left just under the seat (the wires were still displaced and cover off from testing the stator).
3 or 4 of these wires had become bare from rubbing against the frame (i think) and no shorting to each other/earth. inc wires to the stator. :eek
so in better news, i think i may have found what killed my reg/rec, going to spend tomorrow pulling out the loop and replacing these wires :b
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How's this sound for testing the reg/rect?
Disconnect Red output lead,stick mulitmeter across output on 20v ish a/c voltage range~ run bike, but keep revs to a minimum, if ac voltage shows, rectifier part is swiss cheese~ chuck in nearest wheely bin.
If no a/c switch to dc voltage range~ & check it's in the ballpark of 12-15v.ish.
Stop engine &Reconnect output lead,then test regulator circuit as per factory manual with engine running.
Please DO NOT try 'til one of our more knowledgeable members has commented~ It's a plan, but it may be flawed ;)
You theory is good but flawed unfortunately, disconnecting the output lead could damage the regulator as the battery is a functional part of the charging circuit. There is a simpler way as mentioned in one of my previous posts and no disconnection of any wires required.
Set the meter to AC and with everything connected start the bike and check the voltage between the white wires of the alternator this is done 3 times accross the different wires to check all the alternator coils; (push the meter leads (carefully) into the back of the plug) it should read around 18 to 20 volts AC. Revving the engine to 2000 revs will increase the AC voltage dramatically, if this is the case then the Alternator is working. If this does not happen the alternator is faulty. With the engine running at tick over, set the meter to DC and the voltage measured across the battery should read over 12v and go up to an absolute maximum of 14.4 (may be a little bit less) when the engine is revved over 5000 revs. If the voltage does not increase and you have 18v AC + from the alternator then the regulator is faulty. If the voltage goes over 14.4 volts then the regulator is also faulty.
Glad to see Boris appears to have found the problem.
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Stupid question, I've bought new rectifier, but where should I look on my FZS600?
Is it somewhere near horn? Or rear seat?
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Under the left hand fairing infill.