Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?

[Gingernutz]

I can't believe anyone thinks that theres a problem with capping welfare at the same level as a £35K year salary after tax.
Surely that paying people that much to not  work is the reason so many people won't.
Can anyone tell me I'm wrong and explain?

[Grahamm]

The theory is all well and good, but, with typical governmental incompetence (no matter *which* government), the idea hasn't been thought through properly such that, were it to be passed, people who now rely on benefits would suddenly be told, for instance, "That's it, no more money, if you can't afford to live in the place which your Council's Housing Department has put you in, you'll have to move. Start packing."

The objections are not to the proposals, but the way in which they are planned to be implemented.

[Kev8261]

I agree, when the government get involved, especially local ones, they usually make a cock up of it but, back in the real world that the majority of us live in, means that if we can't afford to live in an area we have to move.

So I think the cap is a good idea, why should the rest of us pay for others to live in expensive areas, or line the pockets of private landlords?

[BBROWN1664]

If you can get £26K in benefits, that is the equivelent of a job paying £12.50/hour on a 40 hour week. Why would you want to work?

As Graham and Kev have said, if I cannot afford to live somewhere I move or I stay where I am and travel to work. Why should I as a tax payer fund the life of someone who sits on their arse all day drinking alcopops or special brew whilst watching Jeremy Kyle whils I work my balls off to ba able to afford less booze each week than I pay for for them?

[locksmith]

Ditto

[HarryHornby]

please don't rattle my cage on this one.  *sits on hands*

BBrown1664, HERE HERE and that's just the tip of the iceburg

Bugger, I'm off...family down the road, in a 100% identical house to us, she's a mature student and he sits at home all day, they have one child we have 2.  I work, my wife is a stay at home mum.  We are desperate to move, we love our little terraced house but with 4 of us in there it's all of a sudden VERY small.  But, we can't afford to move because of stamp duty, movings costs and the increase in the mortgage, council tax and heating bills etc that a bigger house would incur.  BUT, people down the road are on benefits, they say the house is too small and get moved into a nice 3 bed semi in a nice part of town, nothing too grand but a house that would suit us down to the ground, so, REMIND ME WHY I WORK!!!!???!!  and breathe *sits on hands again*

[wraith600]

GOOD

[BBROWN1664]

Sorry, I have just realised I forgot to add tax to that, it is equivelant to £16.50/hour!!!!!!!!

Put it another way, £35K/year! I know loads of people that earn significantly less than this.

[Farjo]

Labour should have sorted this out instead of leaving it to the tories to do something crude.

A cap is fine but should be regionalised, otherwise you'll be better off being out of work up north where there are no jobs than down south where there are some.

But more generally, why are single people always expected to pay for families? They've got each other to support them, I have to do everything myself! They should be paying me.

[Chillum]

I foresee the only people who object to this are either beneficiaries, or bleeding heart liberals with more money than sense.

[locksmith]

so, REMIND ME WHY I WORK!!!!???!! 

 
Because it's right and just and gives you enormous wellbeing that YOU provide for YOUR family.

[DILLIGAFF]

The original concept of the welfare state was a good one and I'm all for helping the needy.


Somewhere along the way it became a right rather than a helping hand.


I am now 62 and I have never even applied for council housing, let alone sit back and expect it.


We now have generations of people who have no intention of ever working and why would they when they can get more for doing nothing?

[Robbie8666]

well i think its wrong!!
me and my mrs have got 7 kids at home with us and i have to pay maintenance for the other 3 I know about!
only got britney and chardonay at school as the others are either too young to go and the 2 boys wayne and tyson are excluded! we have had to be given a big house with a huge garden so they can ride there quads bikes there as they keep getting arrested when they just pop out on the estate to ride them! I told them if anyone complains send em to me i'll give em what for!!
 
No I dont drink special brew, well only on special occasions as its well expensive, Lynx is better n cheap!
 
I cant work cuz i'm on tag but hopefully that will come off before we go to majorca for our all inclusive holiday. and why should i work and get me new white Nike trainers dirty? I never have done cuz why get all that pressure when I can sit at home using my blackberry n watching my 8 foot wide plasma 3d bluray sky TV?
 
when I get off tag they have promised me I can have a new multiseater car on disability because my wife has got this ingrowing toenail so cant walk the 100 yards to the shop for anything heavier than me fags!
 
I dont watch Jeremy Kyle on TV, I'm always there i got mor lie dectetor results and DNA results than I have qualifications!
 
so get off my back and go and earn your money to pay your taxes!!!
 
(this is tongue in cheek and not aimed at anyone or meant to insult anyone!)

[Kev8261]

 

[HarryHornby]

And the worst thing about Robbie's reply.......parts of this are probably so true! 
 
Locksmith, you are quite right, but it don't half p1ss me off when I really think about what people get for sitting on their arse at home all day, especially the stuff I can't afford.  BUt I know I'm not alone in my thoughts, Dilligaff sums it up rather well too.

[bigralphie]

I agree but the Gov needs to balance this benefit cutting
They are on a mission to get the disabled in work ... fine
, but if you work and claim any disability benefits you are automatically under suspicion and come 2013 will be the first to be investigated even if the medical  condition is permanent ????

Can’t have it both ways IDS

[BBROWN1664]

Robbie, you dont know how close to the truth you are with some of what you are saying.

I know of one family, two adults and four kids. All four kids apparently have one issue or another meaning they have special needs and allowances for this that and the other. Only one of the kids I would say really has any problems and even that could be just down to the way the parents treat her (only daughter). Neither of the parents work and claim invalidity benefits resulting in a brand new car every couple of years that they onl;y have to put fuel in!
They have three or four weeks away each year, new branded trainers and clothes on a regular basis, just bought a pedigree puppy (and talked about getting another!) and loads more stuff that I cannot afford even though my wife and I work full time.

Must go and do some more work now, just got my tax code though telling me I owe them more money.

[Major Rant]

Need to be careful about who's excluded from this £26K cap - and that's the problem.
At first sight it seems obvious that no one should get the equivalent of £33K on benefits but consider this:
 
I'm a well-off middle-class self-funded "economcally inactive" engineer with a wife and 2 kids- one of whom is autistic* - we get a total of £1000 a month. That's about £12K a year comprising
£250 DLA , £500 ESA (cos he's over 18) and £230 Carers allowance paid to the wife.
I don't claim any benefits but because I see lot of 'special needs'  families I know how the "other half" lives.
 
1 of these "other half" is a family with 2 Autistic kids and 2 other kids who are in social housing and who can't work because of care commitments. I expect their benefits including housing benefit and jobseekers/ESA and child benefit are WAY north of £26K.
 
Now, you could argue that because the parents are obviously 'barking mad' they should never have had 4 kids but he fact is that they DO have 4 kids and are unable to support them - what would you do??
 
On the other hand I have seen plenty of kids who are simply "a bit odd" or "a bit thick" who's parents have cunningly exploited weak-willed social service and benefits staff and are claiming a load of benefits that they shouldn't be getting.
 
The problem is, as it has been since the days of the "work house" : How do you discriminate between the "Deserving Poor" and the "Undeserving Poor"?
 
 
* I mean properly Autistic and needing 24 hr care, not one of these 'slightly shy' "aspergers" kids with a personality problem.

[BBROWN1664]

weak-willed social service and benefits staff and are claiming a load of benefits that they shouldn't be getting.

And there lies the main culprit.

[adeejaysdelight]

I don't know all about the politics, but I am a tax payer and am entitled to an opinion, and it is this.
 
 
I work a full time job to support myself and my Fiancee, who is a 5th year student in the field of phycology. I pay my bills, I pay my tax and NI, I pay for my car and bikes. We own the house we live in, and we each own our "bachelor pads", which we rent out (not to low life dole scum might I add). I was born in a council estate, no money, poor education...but I worked damn hard to get into a good high school (academy actually), then went onto further education. I got a good job, and continue to work hard. In other words I contribute, to the best of my ability, to the econemy and country in general.
 
I understand that SOME families need help, and I am proud to live in a country that can offer that...but
 
In the house right across the road from me, a fat lazy turd (nothing against fat people), the same age as me, was given the house by the council, for him, his pig ugly woman, and three children. He does not work. He does not look after the house or garden. He does not shave or wear an ironed shirt. He sits all day and plays Xbox like a pubecent teenager, or stands at his door watching like some redneck hick.
 
This is, without a doubt, THE ONLY PERSON in the world I hate. I absolutly hate him. He is the anti-me. I feel for his kids and I would like to know if he know's how mutch of a pathetic, low life, deadbeat, scum-bucket  and excuse of a man he is. Why should he live in the same house as I do, when I worked so hard to EARN it?
 
These people spoil it for other, deserving people. I say the system is wrong, but I don't know if a benefit limit is the right way or not.

[pitternator]

My opinion is the welfare state has evolved into the wrong system, and yes its clear too many folk are getting huge benefit for doing nowt. But instead of taking real benefits away from real deserving cases...which is the stupid tory blunt hammer approach...we should question just how benefits are given in the first place. AND there needs to be a work alternative given. BUT that is the trouble. We dont have 2.6 million unemployed and 2.6 million vacancies. A huge number of unemployed do want jobs but they genuinely cannot find any. Its not just a question of getting on yer bike either. Trouble is, its all starting to become extremely victorian, and everyone on benefit is  starting to be classed as a lazy scrounger. As a society we really are slipping into quite miserable intolerance and a " i'm allright jack stance" which is fine till the sword of damaclese descends on your job  , then you become a scrounger just cos you need help !
. The way out has to be a limit on benefit for sure, and definitely those who are fit should help on project or community  work, not sit at home.But it should be work with dignity and pride, not a workhouse approach. I feel very strongly that this government has abandoned the youth of today...just as the same old Tory government did in Thatchers day. Its just like turning back the clock.Its going to create social division, crime and IMO is just not the way  a civilised society should sort out the problem.
People need a vision and encouragement to pull themselves out of the mire,to get off benefit if they can..... not this ridiculous old fashioned same old tory bull approach.
Maybe we also should look at why we have 400 thousand immigrants on welfare too !
And dont go kidding yerselves all these benefits cannot be got right now....there just seems to be no judgement in the system, too much an automatic right .It is a stinking mess for sure...we pay too many people to do nothing, an utter waste of human kind  , and  then  throw abuse at genuine cases if they ask for  help .

[Major Rant]

ONLY PERSON in the world I hate

Walk a mile in his shoes, then you'll be a mile away and you'll have his footwear (and some interesting fungal diseases too I suspect)
 
More seriously, he has probably discovered that in "T Blairs World" it simply isn't worth working for minimum wage to pay G Brown's taxes in order to make an extra £30 a week. Why should he while he sees "the rich" (and to him that means anyone with a posh car) making more than he can ever hope to earn. Meanwhile the state pays for his kids and the NHS solves his health problems and life is good.
 
He may not be socially responsible but as things stood in 2010 he is right. The Government's task is to make him wrong.
 
4WIW , I have discovered that the only good reason for having money (more than say £40K a year) is to fund healthcare that the NHS won't provide (like - jumping the cancer waiting list! ). Everything else can be funded out of £40K.
- Cars don't go faster or much smoother beyond about £2K
- Housing is cheap or free if you already own it.
- Expensive holidays are a bore when you've had 10 of 'em - might as well go to Cornwall for £1K.
- Good food can be bought for £50 a week each.
- A good night out can be had for £30.
- If you save any money, HMRC will take 40 percent of it when you die.

[adeejaysdelight]

I know whay your saying here, but I would still like the lazy c**t to get a job and show his poor children a better life. A holiday to cornwall would be a massive treat. We went to Bulgaria a few years back, and when his kids enquired as to Bulgaria's wherabouts, I told them its on the eastern edge of Europe, a few thousand miles away and we would have to fly there. They replyed with "we are going to moodiesburn on holiday". Moodiesburn is a feeder town to Glasgow, about 15 miles away. That lazy toad's brother lives there and was taking them for a week. How sad is that  .
 
He is, believe it or not, a qualified motor mechanic and has an HGV Licence. I KNOW that a garage about 2 miles away are activley seeking 2 full time mechanics. WTF?
 
Its wrong, plain wrong. And I have to admit, In the summer I take great pleasure in washing my car and two motorcycles and peacocking them right out on the front driveway in the sunshine with the engines running, all like - bling, look at my bling, bling, look at my bling. Not that it is bling, but to that MF, it is 
 

ONLY PERSON in the world I hate

Walk a mile in his shoes, then you'll be a mile away and you'll have his footwear (and some interesting fungal diseases too I suspect)
 
More seriously, he has probably discovered that in "T Blairs World" it simply isn't worth working for minimum wage to pay G Brown's taxes in order to make an extra £30 a week. Why should he while he sees "the rich" (and to him that means anyone with a posh car) making more than he can ever hope to earn. Meanwhile the state pays for his kids and the NHS solves his health problems and life is good.
 
He may not be socially responsible but as things stood in 2010 he is right. The Government's task is to make him wrong.
 
4WIW , I have discovered that the only good reason for having money (more than say £40K a year) is to fund healthcare that the NHS won't provide (like - jumping the cancer waiting list! ). Everything else can be funded out of £40K.
- Cars don't go faster or much smoother beyond about £2K
- Housing is cheap or free if you already own it.
- Expensive holidays are a bore when you've had 10 of 'em - might as well go to Cornwall for £1K.
- Good food can be bought for £50 a week each.
- A good night out can be had for £30.
- If you save any money, HMRC will take 40 percent of it when you die.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 This is quite an interesting one.
As the people who will be financially effected are generally rich Tories.    I wasn't convinced they would actually go and do this, because it hurts their own, though of course by the time it's been voted down a few times and amended it won't really make any difference, but the Tories will get applauded for making populist noises.  It's a non event, very clever posturing though. 
The reason we have this mess comes back to Maggie and the council houses.  There's foc all council houses any more.
I know guys at work who have DSS empires.  They buy a ropey flat for 30 grand, spend 5 - 10 grand making it meet the regs and then get some DSS in.    Every 3-6 years you make your money back on it.  My foccing tax money handed over, not to the unemployed, disabled or needy, but rich dudes with little rental empires.
Apparently, this legislation, if it does through, could save up to 250 million a year.  Well foc me ain't that a fortune!
Meanwhile crazy Dave is still to scared to do anything about the bankers bonuses, you know the guys we bailed out with a trillion quid or two who are throwing billions about in bonuses.  The non-doms and other rich tax avoiders (the more you earn the less you pay tax in % terms).  All the failed bankers on their state backed fat pension deals.
All the UK companies, operating in the UK but registered abroad, so they can skip on 100's of billions of pounds of tax.
That's where the money is folks. 
But hey don't expect the Daily Mail and the Express to let the obvious truth get in the way of a good story.  And you lot, just like the rest of the country swallow it whole.  Never mind who's really screwing you, just get that poor foccer on the benifits.

[BBROWN1664]

VNA, tax avoidance is a completely different matter that should be dealt with AS WELL.

For now though, we are talking about scroungers on benefits who could work but are better off by not doing so because of the benefits system we have in this country.

I bet even the pikeys find a way to claim a fortune here too!