Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
General => General => Topic started by: DILLIGAFF on 17 February 2016, 11:43:33 am
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All the pundits reckon a date for the referendum will be announced soon, so how do you think it will go?
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I want out
But I fear that if the out campaign don't sort themselves out and stop squabbling who is going to lead then we could end up staying in due to a lack of an effective opposition to the in.
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I'm all for out but need proper data on pro's and cons before I make an informed decision
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In but with a better deal for the UK
Why the foc should we put so much in for so little out?
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Norway aren't in but have to pay billions just to trade with EU countries, that's like me paying all the window cleaners in the NW when I just go straight to my local one and say "how much to do me winders mate, sound....get on with it"
it's a foccin closed shop if you want to trade within the EU......pay us loads or foc off!
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"IN" for me. My dad runs a small but successful business and we just couldn't handle the import/export nonsense we see for non EU countries trying to work with the EU. Given what he makes, we can't export to some countries but EU is fine. If EU changed the rules so we had to abide like non EU countries do, we'd be stuffed.
Also in what I do, we can work with EU really easily - when I see what non-EU countries have to do to deliver the same as us, we'd probably need to recruit within EU rather than UK.
Different industries may be different, but for my dad and my area, in is better.
People will still illegally want to come to the UK. It won't make a jot of difference if we are in/out.
Oh and I am pro Scotland, if the UK vote out, and Scotland generally vote "in" expect to wave them good-bye.
Do I think our relationship with the EU is perfect? No. Do I want to see changes? Yes. But taking it all into account, I'd rather be in.
Cheers
Markie
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Out, I don't believe all the scaremongering .
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Norway aren't in but have to pay billions just to trade with EU countries,
Dont forget that our membership costs are in the region of £55 million A DAY
And norway have got foc all anyone wants
"IN" for me. My dad runs a small but successful business and we just couldn't handle the import/export nonsense we see for non EU countries trying to work with the EU. Given what he makes, we can't export to some countries but EU is fine. If EU changed the rules so we had to abide like non EU countries do, we'd be stuffed.
The Eu needs our trade more than we need theirs, so very quickly new agreements will be sorted out.
Also you are having problems with other countries precisely because we are in the eu, once we are out we will be free to negotiate our own separate and better terms for the whole world
And this bit in the vote SEEK FURTHER NEGOTIATIONS TO BETTER OUR CONTRACT. Is pointless because that is what Cameroon has been doing all winter instead of running the country and has --- even not yet, come up with nothing of any substance
The time for further negotiations is over there are none to be had that would ever be accepted by the rest of the EU club
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The Eu needs our trade more than we need theirs, so very quickly new agreements will be sorted out. (1)
Also you are having problems with other countries precisely because we are in the eu, once we are out we will be free to negotiate our own separate and better terms for the whole world (2)
(1) In my dads personal case that is not true. He sources everything from the UK and exports. Mine is similar but not quite as one sided. People always point to the German car sector when following your position, there are other sectors that would like us to be out to help their competitiveness. In our personal cases we need them as customers more than we need them as suppliers.
(2) not true in our case. All countries (EU or not) have difficulties trading with some nations. Being in/out of the EU is not going to change that. Unless you know a country that blocks EU trade because of the EU status as opposed to being (for example) anti the west? Trading outside the EU into the EU is more difficult than trading when inside. I know of no one who thinks differently. Agree let's not discuss Norway, they only really export oil, pretty much every thing else is import when dealing with the EU.
I fully accept the business you are in may have a different experience, or it may be a philosophical "out" view you have, but I am going to vote on what's best for me and mine (including my kids futures).
There is scaremongering on BOTH sides I dislike - and picking through the actual facts is difficult, as both sides interpret differently.
Good luck to anyone trying to predict what "out" will really look like. Both sides are making claims neither of which are FACT.
Cheers
Markie
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the problem with the EU is it allows opt outs/preferential treatment/do what the foc u like to different countries, which imo makes a mockery of the union bit.
also Brussels, an unelected body of beaureaucrats get to tell us that our law/actions/measures are illegal.
i get to do a fair bit of driving abroad and i have to know all the differing legislations in each country i go to, and i know that johnny foreigner sees us as an easy target.
the schengen agreement..........it was like that before the EU, i know because i was there.
the dublin regulations. if this was enforced there would be no migrant camps in calais.
unfortunately refugees are being used as political levy and the EU want to spread them around a bit. well if the EU hadnt been in such a hurry to accept Turkey, Greece (well thought out that one), Estonia, Romania then there would be an aid buffer zone, but now they are just pouring into europe.
regarding trade, every country is out for itself, as an example if Germany got arsey with us if we leave, how does an 30% import duty on VW/BMW/Merc sound. Remember the BSE scare and the 3 year illegal ban on beef from the french. imo once we are out new protocols will very quickly put into place regarding trade.
Don't get me wrong, i love Europe, but hate the EU.
Finally, we aren't european, we're british, we fought to stay that way and to allow countries in europe to keep their identities, and yet now watch them throw it all away for a CAP handout and a new bypass.
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All the pundits reckon a date for the referendum will be announced soon, so how do you think it will go?
as a true foccer I think fukp represents me best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADgYkAfXro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADgYkAfXro)
Europe
"I pledge that the UK will leave Europe by 2025 and the edge of the Solar System by 2050. Common Market sense." :rollin :rollin
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It needs to get back to what it was originally formed for a group of trading nations. The border controls need to be re- introduced. No company should be allowed to export jobs from one member state to another, as in wage costs in Poland/Romainia etc! are cheaper than wage costs in Germany, France or Britain so I will transfer my production to another member country and sack my home countries work force this should not be alllowed.
I think the UK in/out vote will be very much based on the refugee/ economic migrants question.
Security will also play a big part as well, for the Uk's own security we have to stay in now. Thanks to Idiots like Merkel throwing her arms open and welcoming all and sundry the EU is now inundated with cells of terrorists and the UK now has more than it's fair share. So for me we have to stay in but not at any price, Just reading this I am as fecked up as the EU is :lol
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Out...
If we get our border controls back then less stolen bikes leave our ports in unchecked vans departing for Eastern Europe, demand for stolen bikes drops as they get more difficult to get out of the country, bike thieves who are have a boom time at the moment start looking elsewhere to make money, I can sleep properly at night without worrying that a local toerag is gonna lift my bike in the night and sell it to some Latvian for a wrap of brown and it'll still be there waiting for me in the morning.
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Out but to late to many foreigners here
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the problem with the EU is it allows opt outs/preferential treatment/do what the foc u like to different countries, which imo makes a mockery of the union bit.
also Brussels, an unelected body of beaureaucrats get to tell us that our law/actions/measures are illegal.
i get to do a fair bit of driving abroad and i have to know all the differing legislations in each country i go to, and i know that johnny foreigner sees us as an easy target.
the schengen agreement..........it was like that before the EU, i know because i was there.
the dublin regulations. if this was enforced there would be no migrant camps in calais.
unfortunately refugees are being used as political levy and the EU want to spread them around a bit. well if the EU hadnt been in such a hurry to accept Turkey, Greece (well thought out that one), Estonia, Romania then there would be an aid buffer zone, but now they are just pouring into europe.
regarding trade, every country is out for itself, as an example if Germany got arsey with us if we leave, how does an 30% import duty on VW/BMW/Merc sound. Remember the BSE scare and the 3 year illegal ban on beef from the french. imo once we are out new protocols will very quickly put into place regarding trade.
Don't get me wrong, i love Europe, but hate the EU.
Finally, we aren't european, we're british, we fought to stay that way and to allow countries in europe to keep their identities, and yet now watch them throw it all away for a CAP handout and a new bypass.
Couldn't have summed it up ant better - OUT!
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IN otherwise what's left of our manufacturing industries will disappear. Honda, Toyota, Ford, Jaguar, BAE and dare I say it Triumph are only here because of the absence of tariffs when manufacturing in one EU state and selling in the others. If we leave, so will they, and set up shop in another EU states.
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I'm genuinely undecided! I haven't a foccin' clue, I'll make my decision when I think I know enough to make an informed choice.
In my opinion the EU is fundamentally undemocratic. People vote in EU elections and no-one anywhere in Europe gets what they've voted for.
It's a faceless superstate in the making, nothing more than a tool for the global multi-nationals and international lobby groups, it's not run for the benefit of the citizens. The EU Commission is in effect, the EU government. It meets in secret and conducts its business in secret. It's not what we joined in 1975. Maybe the EU has helped keep the peace for the last forty years? I don't know. Actually the more I think about it I'd say I'm in the no camp, but I'm open to persuasion . . .
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The news reports seem to be hanging on to Cameroon securing an agreement but so what if he does - its a pile of nothing from some scraps of nothing that he will trumpet as a great deal for the uk.
I have no doubt that the smaller countries are being "lent" on by the bigger ones to agree.
Remember the Ireland Lisbon Treaty vote in 2008 - the people said NO but the eu bullied them into voting again untill they said yes
Donald Tusk has warned that a uk out vote may even result in the brake up of the eu. Well if it is so fragile then why the hek would we want to be in it.
He is just scaremongering the smaller countries who gain so much from the eu to agree to camerooon.
I do not trust the intentions of big companies and politicians as to why they are so keen to stay, the British public have been here before and got it right with the Euro -- no we did not have a vote because Blair and Brown although they wanted it knew dam well the British public would vote against joining the cuerency and we were right not to - just like we are right to leave the eu.
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the British public have been here before and got it right with the Euro -- no we did not have a vote because Blair and Brown although they wanted it knew dam well the British public would vote against joining the cuerency and we were right not to[\quote]
Except of course that the Tories took us into the European Currency. October 1990 when Nigel Lawson took us into the ERM until we spectacularly crashed out in Sept 1992.
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The news reports seem to be hanging on to Cameroon securing an agreement but so what if he does - its a pile of nothing from some scraps of nothing that he will trumpet as a great deal for the uk.
I have no doubt that the smaller countries are being "lent" on by the bigger ones to agree.
Remember the Ireland Lisbon Treaty vote in 2008 - the people said NO but the eu bullied them into voting again untill they said yes
Donald Tusk has warned that a uk out vote may even result in the brake up of the eu. Well if it is so fragile then why the hek would we want to be in it.
He is just scaremongering the smaller countries who gain so much from the eu to agree to camerooon.
I do not trust the intentions of big companies and politicians as to why they are so keen to stay, the British public have been here before and got it right with the Euro -- no we did not have a vote because Blair and Brown although they wanted it knew dam well the British public would vote against joining the cuerency and we were right not to - just like we are right to leave the eu.
Are you on about the Prime Minister or the African country with an unbelievably shit football team, that's even worse than ours?
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"IN" for me. My dad runs a small but successful business and we just couldn't handle the import/export nonsense we see for non EU countries trying to work with the EU. Given what he makes, we can't export to some countries but EU is fine. If EU changed the rules so we had to abide like non EU countries do, we'd be stuffed.
Also in what I do, we can work with EU really easily - when I see what non-EU countries have to do to deliver the same as us, we'd probably need to recruit within EU rather than UK.
Different industries may be different, but for my dad and my area, in is better.
People will still illegally want to come to the UK. It won't make a jot of difference if we are in/out.
Oh and I am pro Scotland, if the UK vote out, and Scotland generally vote "in" expect to wave them good-bye.
Do I think our relationship with the EU is perfect? No. Do I want to see changes? Yes. But taking it all into account, I'd rather be in.
Cheers
Markie
My position entirely
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As I am old enough to remember voting to join the Common Market, in 1975, on promises of "Wine lakes" and "Butter mountains", all fictitious...............
1) Why do we need 73 fatcat MEPs on big salaries and enormous expenses?
2) Why should we pay £8.5 bn, that's £8,500,000,000, to be in a club that tells us what to do?
3) Like many, I am totally pissed off with some obscure "Court" in Luxembourg telling us how to run our judicial system.
4) Immigration is only a small part of the problem and has been used politically in the "for and against" parties.
5) Modern day politics in my view is the same as religion or football clubs. It starts out with good intentions, then realises it has power and economic advantage over its members and starts to squeeze ever tighter.
Finally, the Pub Landlord had my vote at "Beer will be 1p/pint. !!
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Has the EU ever managed to get its accounts in order? I seem to remember that for years the auditors would never pass them off as they could never figure them out.
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Out, I don't believe all the scaremongering .
In, for the very same reason.
I've yet to come across one single piece of balanced, unbiased information on this subject.
It's ALL scaremongering, from the In crowd who scream about how it'll be economic suicide if we leave, or the Out crowd who bleat on about Shrodinger's immigrants (http://newsthump.com/2014/11/28/ukip-warns-of-schrodingers-immigrant-who-lazes-around-on-benefits-whilst-simultaneously-stealing-your-job/) filling up the country or EU laws on how straight our fucking bananas have to be.
I can only go from personal experience, and no immigrant has ever taken my job, my bananas are still bent, and the company I work for does a lot of business in the EU.
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As I am old enough to remember voting to join the Common Market, in 1975, on promises of "Wine lakes" and "Butter mountains", all fictitious...............
1) Why do we need 73 fatcat MEPs on big salaries and enormous expenses?
2) Why should we pay £8.5 bn, that's £8,500,000,000, to be in a club that tells us what to do?
3) Like many, I am totally pissed off with some obscure "Court" in Luxembourg telling us how to run our judicial system.
4) Immigration is only a small part of the problem and has been used politically in the "for and against" parties.
5) Modern day politics in my view is the same as religion or football clubs. It starts out with good intentions, then realises it has power and economic advantage over its members and starts to squeeze ever tighter.
Finally, the Pub Landlord had my vote at "Beer will be 1p/pint. !!
In all honesty there is a big confusion and right mess about the whole in/out of EU.
For example UK actually has founded European Convention of Human Rights and the associated European Court of Human Rights is part of Council of Europe, the Council or Europe conatins 47 countries and that has nothing to do witn EU itself or in/out referendum.
Otherwise nobody can see what exactly is the point of having these fat cats MEPs.
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:lol I just love the vote bar chart right now it looks exactly like a big middle finger
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Anyway why don't we leave and if we don't like it we can just re-join ------------ that's what the French would do, they always seem to what the foc they like.
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:lol I just love the vote bar chart right now it looks exactly like a big middle finger
:rollin :rollin :rollin I'd just noticed that too! lol
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:rollin :rollin It does lol.
Regardless how the vote goes Cameron will have the vote rigged so we stay in.
From a personal point of view get the vote done and dusted as I have just sold up here in Spain and my other half is wanting to buy again in France. The grand daughter has spoken and wants Grandma & Grandpa to live in France. Why could my son not just have married a British girl and I could get back to the UK. I love my grand daughter but living in France wtf !!!!!!!!!
Still they do have decent roads there.
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My prediction is.
Cameron will not get the agreement he is after and will leave saying it was not good enough, that will save his face and he will come home strutting like a peacock.
And there will be no June vote
Mean while France and Germany will put the pressure on the smaller countries to agree to our demands by scaring them that if we leave their gravy train will end,
A new agreement will be sought and agreed (same but re worded)
Cameron will come home and triumph it and a vote will happen in the Autumn.
And then we will leave
Cameron will resign and Boris will become PM.
Mean while we will score no points in the eurovision song contest as the whole of the EU spits on us.
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Fazersharp I think you might be spot on. But you left out one bit. Boris will decide which side he's on only after he knows the result.
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Looks like we're staying in! :'(
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Sounds like good old Camoron has got us a cracking deal.....Only one problem.....Everything that comes out of his mouth exudes methane
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My prediction is.
Cameron will not get the agreement he is after and will leave saying it was not good enough, that will save his face and he will come home strutting like a peacock.
And there will be no June vote
Mean while France and Germany will put the pressure on the smaller countries to agree to our demands by scaring them that if we leave their gravy train will end,
A new agreement will be sought and agreed (same but re worded)
Cameron will come home and triumph it and a vote will happen in the Autumn.
And then we will leave
Cameron will resign and Boris will become PM.
Mean while we will score no points in the eurovision song contest as the whole of the EU spits on us.
Boris become PM :eek I'd rather stay in Europe and welcome the economic migrants
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There are a couple of things I don't understand (like, everything to do with politics :lol ).
1. What are the current goals of the EU? Is it to eventually become a single large state under a single government? Do any members actually know what they are aiming for in the longer term?
2. There seem to be some rather confused Scots. Some seem to want out from under the yoke of Westminster, but seem quite happy to end up under the yoke of Brussels. What can that be about?
Told ya I'm confused :\
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There are a couple of things I don't understand (like, everything to do with politics :lol ).
1. What are the current goals of the EU? Is it to eventually become a single large state under a single government? Do any members actually know what they are aiming for in the longer term?
2. There seem to be some rather confused Scots. Some seem to want out from under the yoke of Westminster, but seem quite happy to end up under the yoke of Brussels. What can that be about?
Told ya I'm confused :\
Ah! but you easily confused :lol :lol
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here is a Scot who will be voting OUT.
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I can wait for a federal Europe!
Time to be decimalised- 100 seconds, 100 minutes in an hour 10 hours a day, 10 days in a week ect.
Esperanto to be the official written and spoken language.
A space program to put a man on Saturn to claim mining rights.
The national debt to be transferred onto a 6 months interest free card.
Zebra crossings to be renamed as they're racist against other animals.
No secular holidays- Christmas to be renamed 'The Winterval Festival'.
Half the grey squirrel population to be painted red to increase red population.
Prison overcrowding, release those who are innocent.
Equal pay- working couples will have the higher earners' wage reduced to be in line with their partner.
Bring it on! :lol :rollin :rollin :rollin
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(http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy231/celticfisherman_photos/Junk/Merkel_zpsq76mdret.jpg) (http://s795.photobucket.com/user/celticfisherman_photos/media/Junk/Merkel_zpsq76mdret.jpg.html)
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Looking forward to the Boris and Trump debates in the future! :eek :eek :eek
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Ah!!! did miss something what fecking deal, the twat has got nothing. No wonder he made it known months ago he will not stand for a third term as PM.
If Boris says out that is good enough for me :rollin
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Looking forward to the Boris and Trump debates in the future! :eek :eek :eek
OMG how exactly we can recognise who is who there on the debate?? They both have the same haircut :eek :eek :eek
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If I understand the politics correctly, if you want Germany to run your monetary policy and Romanians to work for less money in all the service businesses, then you should join the EU.
As far as refugees go:
(http://i.imgur.com/jUrYaZ9.jpg)
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This is probably the reason we never accepted the Euro,,the Pound is ours and will continue, I think this was always on the books, we have to get out and make it alone,,it's all about making our own rules and policing our own borders, at the moment we have to let in all the Romanian,Slovakian benefit tourists and send them family allowance back home for their kids,,what a fookin joke,
There is 3 million of them working here ,paying taxes but the lowest rate of tax,,then they claim it all back in benefits,,JOKE
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Look on the bright side: as long as your country is the one people run to for benefits, you should be happy. :)
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This is probably the reason we never accepted the Euro,,the Pound is ours and will continue, I think this was always on the books, we have to get out and make it alone,,it's all about making our own rules and policing our own borders, at the moment we have to let in all the Romanian,Slovakian benefit tourists and send them family allowance back home for their kids,,what a fookin joke,
There is 3 million of them working here ,paying taxes but the lowest rate of tax,,then they claim it all back in benefits,,JOKE
This is the reason there shouldn't be a referendum at all, this is the depth of knowledge that the UK public has.
We've been fed nothing but Newspaper headlines, slogans and soundbites designed to stir up hatred/panic on both sides of the argument, and from this we're expected to make one of the most important decisions the UK has faced in the last 45 years? THAT is the fucking joke!
I say let those who actually know something in detail about the subject make the decision.
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That would be me then,. For years I have seen our positions at work devalued as the influx of migrant workers have flooded my industry working for less and less. Bosses have cottened on to this and have started to use it as leverage to squeeze our money.
A typical Eastern European can work over here for 5 years and save enough money to buy themselves a lovely property back in their own country outright. Meanwhile, collecting child benefit for every child and sending it abroad. Using loophole companies to pay tthe minimum amount of tax and national insurance so they are not contributing as we are lead to believe.
The British worker is getting squeezed and into debt as they have higher overheads and with their children living in this country the child benefit is not worth as much as it is in Romania or Bulgaria for example.
Europe telling us we have no control over this, not to mention the amount of radicalized maniacs slipping through under the cover of refugee or migrant status. I say no thankyou.
This alone is good enough knowledge to make a decision with.
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Deleted that post as it seems the info I got was incorrect.
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The last person I would trust is a politician and I don’t believe its tru when people say they are contributing to our economy - because they spend as little as possible here, living 15 in 1 house and sending every penny they can home.
Here is what I have seen, a lorry in a back street being loaded polish reg cars there was about 3 of them. My wild assumptions are they are going back to Poland to avoid having to register here and the lorry is full of cheap continent fuel and so those cars are not even buying uk fuel to drive back with.
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The thing is if we get out we will have to beef up the navy as we will be going back to the 12 mile offshore fishing limits again. That twat Ted Heath signed away the fishing limits to the EU as part of the deal to get us in. I reckon if we pull out the EU will go into meltdown. Not just because we are a big player in it but I think if truth be told the peoples of western Europe a fedup with crap that is coming out of Brussels
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We will be going back to the 12 mile offshore fishing limits again. That twat Ted Heath signed away the fishing limits to the EU as part of the deal to get us in.
And if we are out then we should no longer have the problem of huge factory ships raping our waters.
http://britishseafishing.co.uk/atlantic-dawn-the-ship-from-hell/ (http://britishseafishing.co.uk/atlantic-dawn-the-ship-from-hell/)
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If we leave it'll start a chain reaction. Other countries will leave and the EU will go tits up in a year or two. Then perhaps it could be rebuilt as a trade agreement between European countries, and leave all these massive fees and free roaming visa behind. I'm with Nigel, OUT!
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Interesting that another site I use is running a poll with similar results....
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If we leave it'll start a chain reaction. Other countries will leave and the EU will go tits up in a year or two. Then perhaps it could be rebuilt as a trade agreement between European countries, and leave all these massive fees and free roaming visa behind. I'm with Nigel, OUT!
From what I know, once a country enters the EU, it can never go back. Not joking. Not sure if it requires constitution, or just some lows, agreements signed, but one of the tricks is you can no longer go back. A least the continental countries.
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That sums up the whole debate rather nicely :rollin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk)
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Out for me, at least until the Franco-German 'bloc' can learn to be a bit less bossy. Why do all these countries want to give up their individual identities? Is that they only way they can see of avoiding future wars? Here in the UK, we're all for devolving national government so that local needs are better catered for, and I think the same is even more pertinent on international scales. What do Brussels or Berlin know of what we need in Cumbria, or care for that matter? And all the scaremongers who say, "oh, we don't know what 'out' will look like" :rolleyes Like we'd be the only country in the world that values it's independence and survives perfectly well. Do people really think all contact, trade, diplomatic relations, common security concerns etc will completely cease between us and the Euro bloc if we leave? And yet all the other Euro countries are so desperate to keep us inside the EU? The US wants us to stay in, you say? What about losing our special relationship with them? Seems to me that's a one way deal anyway, they get what they want from us, we get feck-all from them - just dictated to.
No, I think it's time we learned to stand on our own feet again. We may not be so much 'Great' Britain anymore, but we have to learn to get along in the world on our own merits. Perhaps we'll be less blasé about our education system and industry etc if we actually need home grown talent to survive in the world.
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sign this if you agree that only British can vote and not to inc immigrants.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/109868 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/109868)
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I heard an interesting thing on the news the other day. People eligible to vote in the British referendum include any IRISH living in the UK but not other non-British nationalities.
Why are any non-British nationals allowed to vote?
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Holland and Mertle want to be king and queen of Europe and we are the court jester dancing the their tune, they need us more than we need them, any new trade deals that need to be done will be done and the sooner the better for them I would not be surprised if behind the scenes that the deals have already been done ready to star on June 24th
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I heard an interesting thing on the news the other day. People eligible to vote in the British referendum include any IRISH living in the UK but not other non-British nationalities.
Why are any non-British nationals allowed to vote?
Both Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are U.K. residents, as well as UK nationals who have lived overseas for less than 15 years and Commonwealth citizens living in Gibraltar will be eligible to vote in the referendum. :eek
As far as I know, it is because of the historical free movement between these countries and it will directly effect these people who live, work and pay UK tax. :thumbup
And to get our own back for 800 years of oppression :lol :lol :lol
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Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election. This referendum is more about the Tory Party than it is about Europe. The first bit for DC was easy, but now having held his party together with that promise, well he has to deliver - not so easy - and if he fails to win, well he will have won an election only to have taken to country out of the EU and destroyed his political career. Not to mention left the UK close to splitting itself.
Secondly, there is all the workplace legislation that is good for us all. One reason many Tories hate the EU is it gives us workers rights. The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it.
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world, being a member gives us full access, and full influence. If we leave we will need to sign up to a trade agreement, ie pay money for the same access but have no clout or say in return, and we will have no guarantees whatsoever. Economically your immediate trade partners are always your most important and reliable.
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them, as we will in so many other ways but will have no say.
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave. Big companies like Nissan and Honda for example came here because we were the perfect EU base, they'll already have their exit contingency plans drawn up.
Scotland - Vote no, take us out - and it appears that Scotland will vote to stay by a considerable majority - there will be another Independence Referendum and the UK will be no more, outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
Yup DC has created one hell of a nightmare for himself.
I'll be voting to stay in.
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I'm still slightly undecided because if we vote out the strong EU countries like Germany, France , Holland etc.. Will deal amongst themselves rather than deal with us, as a get it up you for leaving. This is because as had been said before we give a lot to the EU. Because we foolishly joined the eu in the first place, it has backfired on us because we are now in a situation where we know if we leave they will tax us like they do the Norwegians for exporting there fish. Poland can now sell there fish to the EU cheaper than the Norwegians :\ The other reason is Scotland wants to remain in the EU, Which may start an Independence referendum.
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Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election. This referendum is more about the Tory Party than it is about Europe. The first bit for DC was easy, but now having held his party together with that promise, well he has to deliver - not so easy - and if he fails to win, well he will have won an election only to have taken to country out of the EU and destroyed his political career. Not to mention left the UK close to splitting itself.
Secondly, there is all the workplace legislation that is good for us all. One reason many Tories hate the EU is it gives us workers rights. The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it.
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world, being a member gives us full access, and full influence. If we leave we will need to sign up to a trade agreement, ie pay money for the same access but have no clout or say in return, and we will have no guarantees whatsoever. Economically your immediate trade partners are always your most important and reliable.
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them, as we will in so many other ways but will have no say.
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave. Big companies like Nissan and Honda for example came here because we were the perfect EU base, they'll already have their exit contingency plans drawn up.
Scotland - Vote no, take us out - and it appears that Scotland will vote to stay by a considerable majority - there will be another Independence Referendum and the UK will be no more, outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
Yup DC has created one hell of a nightmare for himself.
I'll be voting to stay in.
I agree with every single word :thumbup
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I dont agree with any of it
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election.
No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world.
That one is always touted bypassing the fact that the rest of the world is the biggest joint in which we have to trade with EU agreements and being free of eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
being a member gives us full access, and full influence.
Oh yeh that has just been demonstrated hasn't it by cameron crawling on his hands and knees with a begging bowl only to be thrown a few scraps- such great influence.
The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it
Ok not sure on this one but weren't we the ones who came up with this in the first place
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them
The EU is not all bad and we can pick the bits we do like - nowt wrong with CE
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave.
No they wont,-- hot air -- the letter just signed by only 36 of the fst 100 companies, HSBC were threatening to leave but backed out when we called there bluff
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Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election. This referendum is more about the Tory Party than it is about Europe. The first bit for DC was easy, but now having held his party together with that promise, well he has to deliver - not so easy - and if he fails to win, well he will have won an election only to have taken to country out of the EU and destroyed his political career. Not to mention left the UK close to splitting itself.
Secondly, there is all the workplace legislation that is good for us all. One reason many Tories hate the EU is it gives us workers rights. The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it.
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world, being a member gives us full access, and full influence. If we leave we will need to sign up to a trade agreement, ie pay money for the same access but have no clout or say in return, and we will have no guarantees whatsoever. Economically your immediate trade partners are always your most important and reliable.
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them, as we will in so many other ways but will have no say.
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave. Big companies like Nissan and Honda for example came here because we were the perfect EU base, they'll already have their exit contingency plans drawn up.
Scotland - Vote no, take us out - and it appears that Scotland will vote to stay by a considerable majority - there will be another Independence Referendum and the UK will be no more, outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
Yup DC has created one hell of a nightmare for himself.
I'll be voting to stay in.
The same sorts of statements about loss of business were stated about us not being in the Eurozone, and they turned out to be wildly incorrect. Us, Sweden, Denmark and the Czech Republic all opted to retain our own currencies and our economies weathered the recession much better than those in the eurozone. Growth in Cz has dwarfed that in neighbouring Slovakia largely because Slovakia has been hamstrung by the stagnation on the Euro. It's amusing that the same arguments used to try to drop the pound are now being used to retain membership. The arguments need to be much more robust.
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I'm still slightly undecided because if we vote out the strong EU countries like Germany, France , Holland etc.. Will deal amongst themselves rather than deal with us, as a get it up you for leaving. This is because as had been said before we give a lot to the EU. Because we foolishly joined the eu in the first place, it has backfired on us because we are now in a situation where we know if we leave they will tax us like they do the Norwegians for exporting there fish. Poland can now sell there fish to the EU cheaper than the Norwegians :\ The other reason is Scotland wants to remain in the EU, Which may start an Independence referendum.
It's worth remembering that we buy more german cars than any other market in the world. The idea that levies will be imposed on EU exports to the UK are misguided, it would turn into an overnight arms-race/battle of wills. If we left (it's all on a knife edge) the divorce would include a free trade agreement between the EU and the UK, there are unlikely to be a sudden introduction of tariffs (BMW and Volkswagen would be bending Merkels ear in a flash, who would in turn bend the Commision's collective ear).
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I dont agree with any of it
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world.
That one is always touted bypassing the fact that the rest of the world is the biggest joint in which we have to trade with EU agreements and being free of eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
being a member gives us full access, and full influence.
Oh yeh that has just been demonstrated hasn't it by cameron crawling on his hands and knees with a begging bowl only to be thrown a few scraps- such great influence.
The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it
Ok not sure on this one but weren't we the ones who came up with this in the first place
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them
The EU is not all bad and we can pick the bits we do like - nowt wrong with CE
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave.
No they wont,-- hot air -- the letter just signed by only 36 of the fst 100 companies, HSBC were threatening to leave but backed out when we called there bluff
The European Convention on Human Rights/Strasbourg is held up as some pious thing of brilliance, yet at least one judge in ECJ was banned in his own country (I think it was Romania) for corruption. Why is this court put on a pedestal, when it's judges may not be fit for purpose and it's judges seem to disregard morality in the race to be seen to uphold to individual rights against the greater good? The first Bill of Rights in the modern world was written by the English. Didn't the Continental Congress paraphrase much of it when the US was founded?
Doesn't NAFTA use CE markings as they consider it such a useful standard?
Remember before EU/EEC that the British Standard and the Kitemark were used around the world, both in Commonwealth countries and by adoption elsewhere. We don't have to be a member of the EC to use it's standards.
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Why do all these countries want to give up their individual identities? Is that they only way they can see of avoiding future wars? Here in the UK, we're all for devolving national government so that local needs are better catered for, and I think the same is even more pertinent on international scales. What do Brussels or Berlin know of what we need in Cumbria, or care for that matter?
This is an EXCELLENT point. There is clearly is a large gap between what EU is doing and what UK is doing.
Having said that if UK - EU relationship turns sour (not saying that OUT means that), here in Ireland things might get tricky as UK is by far the largest trading partner..! Interesting times that we live in!
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outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
Yes they could. Scotland has a much bigger population (5.3m) than Slovenia (2.1m)
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
Which is far far less than the people who didn't vote for UKIP
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world.
That one is always touted bypassing the fact that the rest of the world is the biggestjoint in which we have to trade with EU agreements and being free of eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
The major traders (USA, China etc) want to trade with a EU all on the same terms, not with individual countries on different terms.
They have said so.being a member gives us full access, and full influence.Oh yeh that has just been demonstrated hasn't it by cameron crawling on his hands and knees with a begging bowl only to be thrown a few scraps- such great influence.
No other individual country has got such specific terms
The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping itOk not sure on this one but weren't we the ones who came up with this in the first place
No we didn't. It [Human Rights Act 1998] is composed of a series of sections that have the effect of codifying the protections in the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave.No they wont,-- hot air -- the letter just signed by only 36 of the fst 100 companies, HSBC were threatening to leave but backed out when we called there bluff.
HSBC is British by name then ? :-) Honda, Toyota, BAE etc etc and now Aston Martin - all will leave. They are in the UK so they can export to the EC without tariff. If we leave that will end and they will move
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If Hsbc honda toyota to trade freely within the EU - why didn't they set up there in the first place
No other individual country has got such specific terms
No other country has asked or wants them
Which is far far less than the people who didn't vote for UKIP
Plenty enough to force camerons hand
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Hsbc honda toyota to trade freely within the EU - why didn't they set up there in the first place Some do, and some choose the UK. But they won't if we leave.
No other individual country has got such specific terms
No other country has asked or wants themNot sure that's true. Denmark is looking pretty envious. Anyway, if we have them and nobody else does, all the more reason to stay.
Which is far far less than the people who didn't vote for UKIP
Plenty enough to force camerons hand
As has been said, it's Tory back benchers which have forced his hand. UKIP have one (ex-Tory) MP, and can't even get their leader elected to Parliament.
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Out for me, at least until the Franco-German 'bloc' can learn to be a bit less bossy. Why do all these countries want to give up their individual identities? Is that they only way they can see of avoiding future wars?
I can speak for my country - Serbia. Government is run by the EU, doing what they're told. Media is controlled, people brainwashed (and often bribed to vote for them).
The good thing would be a possibility to work in the EU a lot easier.
Here in the UK, we're all for devolving national government so that local needs are better catered for, and I think the same is even more pertinent on international scales. What do Brussels or Berlin know of what we need in Cumbria, or care for that matter? And all the scaremongers who say, "oh, we don't know what 'out' will look like" :rolleyes Like we'd be the only country in the world that values it's independence and survives perfectly well. Do people really think all contact, trade, diplomatic relations, common security concerns etc will completely cease between us and the Euro bloc if we leave? And yet all the other Euro countries are so desperate to keep us inside the EU? The US wants us to stay in, you say? What about losing our special relationship with them? Seems to me that's a one way deal anyway, they get what they want from us, we get feck-all from them - just dictated to.
No, I think it's time we learned to stand on our own feet again. We may not be so much 'Great' Britain anymore, but we have to learn to get along in the world on our own merits. Perhaps we'll be less blasé about our education system and industry etc if we actually need home grown talent to survive in the world.
Countries will soon cease to exist - just companies.
My history teacher used to define a "state" as: "an instrument that protects the interests of the rich/ruling, while keeping the rest of the population in obedience". EU is the same thing on a greater level.
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Out for me, at least until the Franco-German 'bloc' can learn to be a bit less bossy. Why do all these countries want to give up their individual identities? Is that they only way they can see of avoiding future wars?
I can speak for my country - Serbia. Government is run by the EU, doing what they're told. Media is controlled, people brainwashed (and often bribed to vote for them).
The good thing would be a possibility to work in the EU a lot easier.
Here in the UK, we're all for devolving national government so that local needs are better catered for, and I think the same is even more pertinent on international scales. What do Brussels or Berlin know of what we need in Cumbria, or care for that matter? And all the scaremongers who say, "oh, we don't know what 'out' will look like" :rolleyes Like we'd be the only country in the world that values it's independence and survives perfectly well. Do people really think all contact, trade, diplomatic relations, common security concerns etc will completely cease between us and the Euro bloc if we leave? And yet all the other Euro countries are so desperate to keep us inside the EU? The US wants us to stay in, you say? What about losing our special relationship with them? Seems to me that's a one way deal anyway, they get what they want from us, we get feck-all from them - just dictated to.
No, I think it's time we learned to stand on our own feet again. We may not be so much 'Great' Britain anymore, but we have to learn to get along in the world on our own merits. Perhaps we'll be less blasé about our education system and industry etc if we actually need home grown talent to survive in the world.
Countries will soon cease to exist - just companies.
My history teacher used to define a "state" as: "an instrument that protects the interests of the rich/ruling, while keeping the rest of the population in obedience". EU is the same thing on a greater level.
Quite agree - I laugh when people moan about 'Tories', in terms of shear self-protection and corporatism the EU makes the Tories look like War on Want. Labour are always banging on about Working Class people making it to Government, the Lords etc. I'd love to see the figures for WC folk from the UK (and across the EU) getting jobs within the upper escelons of the EU. The figure won't be high, it's not what you know in Brussels it's absolutely who you know and who wants you in the club.
Ask the average Joe in the street if he wants more politicians, and if your lucky he'll laugh at you, more likely he'll tell you are all parasites. Yet we've loaded an entire continent with career bureaucrats.
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Compare the EU to the USA.
The USA is essentially a bunch of countries (known as states) that share a common currency, common federal laws (with state specific ones), a free trade agreement and different tax rules.
How is this different to the EU? The difference is that within the EU, at the moment, we have more clout within each country to do what we want than each US state has. If we let the EU continue on the path Merkel and Co want to take it, it will end up exactly like the USA and pretty much like Hitler wanted in 1939.
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Honda, Toyota, BAE etc etc and now Aston Martin - all will leave.
Aston Martin you say
BBC News -- exactly the same time you were typing that
Aston Martin is to build its new luxury car in south Wales, creating 750 highly-skilled jobs.
The DBX car will be hand-made in a super hangar at St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan.
It is a major coup for Wales to secure the deal ahead of 20 locations across the world.
So again more scaremongering,some companies have said it will put jobs at risk.
And there is the subtle phrase "at risk" - when asked if these companies have plans to reduce staff they say no.
Does anyone think for one minute that there has not been secrete talks already to put in place trade plans ready for the day after an out vote
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The reason the big companies want us to stay in , is the cheap pool of labour that is readily available . If the establishment want us to stay in , that's a good enough reason for me to want out .
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Not scaremongering at all, because you see I actually heard the BBC Radio 4 interview with the CEO of Aston Martin where he gave the reasons why Wales was chosen over 27 other locations, including that it is located in the EU and will receive EU subsidies. . Facts rather than the negative immigration based scaremongering of the other side.
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why Wales was chosen over 27 other locations, including that it is located in the EU and will receive EU subsidies.
That's another another one that keeps being banded about "subsidies", businesses - farmers, its not EU subsidies money its OUR MONEY that we pay to the EU --55 million :eek a day ! just being sent back to us after its filtered through Brussels for all the Eurocrats to put their hands in it to pay their massive pay packets.
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It's all very well talking about trade and economic clout in the EU. If that were all it was about, I'd be for staying. But more and more we surrender our sovereignty, our ability to make our own rules and decisions as a nation state with all that this means. This I don't want.
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A superstate which is where the EU is heading , Will benefit the bureaucrats , and the rich and powerful , when Labour signed the Lisbon treaty , we were sold it on their lie that workers would have better protection , instead we have zero hour contracts and less stability , and the wealth gap is growing , Why should British working people surrender the pay and conditions they have have fought for , . I don't have a problem with immigration as long as it is controlled , we are a small island with limited resources .
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it's a strange old world when Galloway and Farage agree on something!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuKEjyERl14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuKEjyERl14)
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
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Honda, Toyota, BAE etc etc and now Aston Martin - all will leave.
Aston Martin you say
BBC News -- exactly the same time you were typing that
Aston Martin is to build its new luxury car in south Wales, creating 750 highly-skilled jobs.
The DBX car will be hand-made in a super hangar at St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan.
It is a major coup for Wales to secure the deal ahead of 20 locations across the world.
Aston Martin are boxing very clever and are looking to the future because they know, that the UK will vote out of the EU, then Scotland will get pissed off being ignored and their infrastructure fall apart and vote independence. Scotland will then be allowed back in to the EU, then Wales will follow suit.
NI with then go the same route and the UK will be no more. Simple :thumbup
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Honda, Toyota, BAE etc etc and now Aston Martin - all will leave.
Aston Martin you say
BBC News -- exactly the same time you were typing that
Aston Martin is to build its new luxury car in south Wales, creating 750 highly-skilled jobs.
The DBX car will be hand-made in a super hangar at St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan.
It is a major coup for Wales to secure the deal ahead of 20 locations across the world.
Aston Martin are boxing very clever and are looking to the future because they know, that the UK will vote out of the EU, then Scotland will get pissed off being ignored and their infrastructure fall apart and vote independence. Scotland will then be allowed back in to the EU, then Wales will follow suit.
NI with then go the same route and the UK will be no more. Simple :thumbup
I think the EU would of fallen apart before all that.
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Honda, Toyota, BAE etc etc and now Aston Martin - all will leave.
Aston Martin you say
BBC News -- exactly the same time you were typing that
Aston Martin is to build its new luxury car in south Wales, creating 750 highly-skilled jobs.
The DBX car will be hand-made in a super hangar at St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan.
It is a major coup for Wales to secure the deal ahead of 20 locations across the world.
Aston Martin are boxing very clever and are looking to the future because they know, that the UK will vote out of the EU, then Scotland will get pissed off being ignored and their infrastructure fall apart and vote independence. Scotland will then be allowed back in to the EU, then Wales will follow suit.
NI with then go the same route and the UK will be no more. Simple :thumbup
I think the EU would of fallen apart before all that.
Remember Hell froze over a 2 years ago http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-25648513 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-25648513) :lol
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Aston Martin are boxing very clever and are looking to the future because they know, that the UK will vote out of the EU, then Scotland will get pissed off being ignored and their infrastructure fall apart and vote independence. Scotland will then be allowed back in to the EU, then Wales will follow suit.
I doubt it very much. Wales doesn't have a separate government. It only has an assembly with very limited powers. It's the United Kingdom that's part of the EU, and unlike Scotland, Wales cannot vote to separate from the UK in it's current form.
Anyway, who says the UK is going to leave ? Plenty of water to pass under the bridge before 23rd June :lol
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Can we force Wales to leave :evil
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I dont agree with any of it
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
outside of the EU as the independent Scotland signs up to continue it's membership.
No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
And of course the EU is the single biggest open market in the world.
That one is always touted bypassing the fact that the rest of the world is the biggest joint in which we have to trade with EU agreements and being free of eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
being a member gives us full access, and full influence.
Oh yeh that has just been demonstrated hasn't it by cameron crawling on his hands and knees with a begging bowl only to be thrown a few scraps- such great influence.
The human rights act too, it would be a disaster if leaving the EU opened the door to scrapping it
Ok not sure on this one but weren't we the ones who came up with this in the first place
CE standards will still be set by the EU, if we leave we will have no say but will have to abide by them
The EU is not all bad and we can pick the bits we do like - nowt wrong with CE
If there is any threat to our access to the EU market many big companies will leave.
No they wont,-- hot air -- the letter just signed by only 36 of the fst 100 companies, HSBC were threatening to leave but backed out when we called there bluff
Point 1. Utter Rubbish (where exactly do you get the info that Scotland couldn't afford the subs on there own?)
Point 2. What has ukip got to do with Scotland in the EU? Ukip is an English party closely resembling the bnp,and most voters are in the south of England shitting themselves from all of the immigrants flooding across from France.
Point 3. How did you come to the assumption that we can agree better terms with the rest of the world?
Point 4. Even though i despise Cameron he has at least gone a very small way to protect us from having to be fully enclusive in being fully linked with the EU.
:)
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Just found the reason why the UK should stay to win Eurovision with this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk)
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Thank you for pointing that out - i grabbed the wrong part - this is how it was supposed to read.
Firstly we are having a referendum because DC had to appease the right wing of his party coming up to the last general election.
No its not its because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
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Staying in will come with difficulties leaving would be a disaster with no way back.
Andrew
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No they wouldnt because they could never afford the subs on their own
Fazersharp, Scotland has one of the strongest economies in the world, never mind Europe.
No its not it's because of the amount of people who voted for UKIP
There was a blip during the Euro elections and David Coburn got elected for UKIP in Scotland. It was unexpected and not repeated at the general election where UKIP where nowhere to be seen, and in any case UKIP as a political party have effectively almost ceased as a functioning political party in Scotland, though I believe they are trying to rebuild themselves.
That EU election result also raises the question of the Scottish media in Scotland - or lack of it - but that's another slightly separate issue.
eu would mean that we can negotiate our own trades with the rest of the world freely and on better terms
It would actually mean we'd be small fish in a big sea. The EU is an economic powerhouse in the world, while the UK's independent influence is on the decline. Think of the clout of a big supermarket compared to your independent corner shop.
The EU is not all bad and we can pick the bits we do like - nowt wrong with CE
Yup it shows the advantages of working together.
It would be a classic example of, as an independent nation (if that were to happen) of having to comply with, no matter what, whatever the EU decides but have no say whatsoever.
No they wont,-- hot air -- t
In terms of inward investment the EU will look much more attractive then an Indy UK. We'll keep losing out all the time.
Not to mention there is the small issue of much of our infrastructure now being (sadly) EU owned, that will become very much foreign owned and outside of our influence to some degree.
If Hsbc honda toyota to trade freely within the EU - why didn't they set up there in the first place
EH? They are in the EU! Yes they did! But they might not take kindly to being dragged out.
Aston Martin? Well they ain't built the factory yet! But to be honest being a small nice producer I'm not sure how important being inside the EU is to them. In terms of Wales, well we may find out if we leave.
Mr Tread I hear you, but,
I doubt it very much. Wales doesn't have a separate government. It only has an assembly with very limited powers. It's the United Kingdom that's part of the EU, and unlike Scotland, Wales cannot vote to separate from the UK in it's current form.
Scotland has a government in name only, legally we have an Executive.
Scotland has no legal right to separate from the UK. But with the Scottish Government calling a consultative referendum a few years back, the UK government felt it had no other option but to grant Scotland temporary powers to allow that to become a legally binding referendum under what was called the Edinburgh Agreement (the terms of which the UK government broke in desperation during the closing weeks of the campaign).
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I stand corrected VNA. Just trying to make the point that Wales has less chance of leaving the UK than Scotland ever did.
Which makes me think. Whichever way the In/Out vote goes, it will (is) causing massive division and potential bitterness. Both in Government and the public. Especially if it's close, we will end up with kind of resentment still held in Scotland over devolution.
This is such an important 'black or white' decision, you can bet 49% of the population is going to be pissed off.
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I'm certainly one for leaving the EU, I like the whole "shot in the dark" thing. I quite like a gamble and the way I see it is a lot of big businesess men have made their fortunes by taking business gambles, shots in the dark. Hey let's see what happens.
Also, I believe we as a country are full, we need to control our borders and stop building excessive numbers of new homes.
We need to fix the benefit system, put something in place that encourages claimants to go get a lower paid job rather than sit on their bums all day, how can they do this when a lot of the lower paid jobs are being done by EU immigrants? Just look at the Sports Direct warehouse in Shirehouse. The EU showed they won't help us with this with Cameron's recent visit to negotiate.
We need to control our benefit system and make it less appealing to people from outside the UK, it's hard enough trying to pay for UK nationals to be on benefit let alone everyone else.
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Also, for the "remain in" lot, just wait until you're irretrievably committed, and then Germany and France use their combined clout to make all the trading and economical criteria favourable for themselves - noooooo, they wouldn't, would they? :rolleyes
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Also, for the "remain in" lot, just wait until you're irretrievably committed, and then Germany and France use their combined clout to make all the trading and economical criteria favourable for themselves - noooooo, they wouldn't, would they? :rolleyes
Yep if we vote to stay that will be it, there will be no more pussyfooting around the uk trying to appease us trying not to upset the British people too much for fear of an out vote. It will be a case of "you vote to stay and now you are going to do what we say" and we will be required to take a much bigger quote of migrants.
Its funny that the Calais jungle camp has been there for years and years and only now with the vote around the corner are the French finally doing something about it.
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My prediction is.
Cameron will not get the agreement he is after and will leave saying it was not good enough, that will save his face and he will come home strutting like a peacock.
And there will be no June vote
Mean while France and Germany will put the pressure on the smaller countries to agree to our demands by scaring them that if we leave their gravy train will end,
A new agreement will be sought and agreed (same but re worded)
Cameron will come home and triumph it and a vote will happen in the Autumn.
And then we will leave
Cameron will resign and Boris will become PM.
Mean while we will score no points in the eurovision song contest as the whole of the EU spits on us.
I have a new prediction
We will vote to leave by a narrow vote and then Cameron will go back to the EU asking for proper wider reaching new terms - which he will get, this time with ease atfer we have showed them we are serious.
Then there will be a new vote and we will vote to stay by the same narrow margin but ofcoures that one will stik.
Look at the Irish Lisbon treaty vote they said no but the EU made made them vote again until they came up with the "correct" result.
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
Yes.
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
Yes
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
Yes
Looks like the start of a movement :lol
Support the FOC-U out campaign!
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
Yes
Auf weidersen pet
Looks like the start of a movement :lol
Support the FOC-U out campaign!
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
Yes
And yes again
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Well, big corporations (and the EU and USA) also think similarly - only on a more global level.
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
But aren't most Higher Education students in Serbia self-funding? The majority either pay themselves for the higher ed or their employer pays (and presumably their contract keeps them there until it provides a return for the employer). Ironically the very reason the Serbs (and most EU countries) have reduced or stopped free HE and introduced tuition fees is because of the EU Bologna Accords, that aimed to standardise degrees across the continent and beyond (a noble aim), but incurred a cost implication for many HE providers (presumably after the fall of Communism and two Balkan War the HE resources in Belgrade were a long way behind other nations), which is typically passed on to end users.
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I am all for immigration its a fantastic thing, we need doctors - professionals- etc. What we don't need are the un skilled who are out of work in their own countries. Its our country and we should be the ones who decide who is allowed in.
So it's OK when Serbia pays for education of a doctor/engineer and he works in England, but it's not OK when a mechanic decides he'd rather not work for 10 times less money just because he was born in a wrong place? :)
But aren't most Higher Education students in Serbia self-funding? The majority either pay themselves for the higher ed or their employer pays (and presumably their contract keeps them there until it provides a return for the employer). Ironically the very reason the Serbs (and most EU countries) have reduced or stopped free HE and introduced tuition fees is because of the EU Bologna Accords, that aimed to standardise degrees across the continent and beyond (a noble aim), but incurred a cost implication for many HE providers (presumably after the fall of Communism and two Balkan War the HE resources in Belgrade were a long way behind other nations), which is typically passed on to end users.
High education has been free until 10 years ago - unless you are a very bad student.
Also, until some 10 years ago, "self funding" was also state subsidized.
For the last 10 years - we get the strictest EU regulations, the worst laws, all in preparation for entering EU.
I don't think EU is good for any country - I'd vote against it if I were in England. I'd vote against it here if it made any difference. However, with government run media (with "democratic EU backing"), and fixing elections, it's impossible to have any impact.
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My prediction is.
Cameron will not get the agreement he is after and will leave saying it was not good enough, that will save his face and he will come home strutting like a peacock.
And there will be no June vote
Mean while France and Germany will put the pressure on the smaller countries to agree to our demands by scaring them that if we leave their gravy train will end,
A new agreement will be sought and agreed (same but re worded)
Cameron will come home and triumph it and a vote will happen in the Autumn.
And then we will leave
Cameron will resign and Boris will become PM.
Mean while we will score no points in the eurovision song contest as the whole of the EU spits on us.
I have a new prediction
We will vote to leave by a narrow vote and then Cameron will go back to the EU asking for proper wider reaching new terms - which he will get, this time with ease atfer we have showed them we are serious.
Then there will be a new vote and we will vote to stay by the same narrow margin but ofcoures that one will stik.
Look at the Irish Lisbon treaty vote they said no but the EU made made them vote again until they came up with the "correct" result.
Yep,the old story, keep voting until you get it right :lol
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Pleas vote no so as the French will end up deporting me, my wife and I are going to move to France on 15th March. Trust me not my decision. :'(
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Pleas vote no so as the French will end up deporting me, my wife and I are going to move to France on 15th March. Trust me not my decision. :'(
Merde.
Whereabouts are you being 'trafficked' to?
Nice roads though, lots of empty places, better weather on the whole, food & wine is good.
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Just a wee thought;
From what I am reading the polls suggest that;
Scotland will vote to remain
Wales will vote to remain
Northern Ireland will vote to remain.
England will vote to leave.
EU legislation is written into the Scottish, Welsh and NI parliaments/assemblies. What if those polls turn into a result at the ballot box?
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could refuse to cooperate with a withdrawal, worse still they could work together to try and block the Tory government's withdrawal.
Like I said, this all about the Tory party, Cameron united his party for a general election and won, now he might have to pay the price.
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VNA, what do you think about the EU having more and more say over our 'constitutional powers'? Economic arguments are all very well, but that's not all of what this is about. Nor just immigration. The current immigration debate just highlights wider concerns for me. Again, if we could just stay as part of the EU trading bloc, surely that would be the best thing. You don't want Westminster setting your rules and regulations up there, why is having Brussels do it better?
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You don't want Westminster setting your rules and regulations up there, why is having Brussels do it better?
I wish I had thought of that, must be that street triple of yours rejuvenating your brain cells
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not of to Calais lew are you, ;) theres a queue to get back in theses days, :rollin
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I'm not a big fan of the EU, but as it exists, on balance it's far better to be part of it than not.
VNA, what do you think about the EU having more and more say over our 'constitutional powers'?
What is it that concerns you?
You don't want Westminster setting your rules and regulations up there, why is having Brussels do it better?
Well like a lot of Scots I'm Scottish first, European second and if push comes to shove I'll reluctantly admit to being British. Certainly the EU acts as a buffer against the more extreme Tory policies.
Meanwhile think of the potential disaster that potentially lies ahead. England votes to leave (a majority across the UK then) but Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales vote to remain, they refuse to cooperate with the withdrawal and worse still for DC they pull together in order to fight to remain in the EU.
Is David Cameron going to step in and overrule them?
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Well like a lot of Scots I'm Scottish first, European second and if push comes to shove I'll reluctantly admit to being British.
If the majority of Scots had thought that then they should have voted to leave the UK, but they didn't.
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Well like a lot of Scots I'm Scottish first, wish to be considered as European second, and if push comes to shove I'll reluctantly admit to being British, like the rest of the world outside the UK would call me.
FTFY :thumbup
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I've just had a google for the Welsh view, this is from 15th Feb, before Cameron's talks.
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2016-02-15/poll-shows-growing-support-for-leaving-eu/ (http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2016-02-15/poll-shows-growing-support-for-leaving-eu/)
What about in Wales? This is what our new Barometer poll found (with changes from December once more in brackets):
Remain a member of the European Union: 37% (-3%)
Leave the European Union: 45% (+3%)
Would not vote: 3% (-2%)
Don’t Know: 16% (+2%)
Our previous poll gave Leave the first lead, albeit a very narrow one, that they had experienced in Wales for two years. They have now extended that advantage to a clear eight percentage points.
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Not with 'Don't knows' running at 16% they haven't .....
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Pleas vote no so as the French will end up deporting me, my wife and I are going to move to France on 15th March. Trust me not my decision. :'(
Merde.
Whereabouts are you being 'trafficked' to?
Nice roads though, lots of empty places, better weather on the whole, food & wine is good.
Not Calais , Bergerac area, grand daughter is putting pressure on Grandma.
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My prediction is.
Cameron will not get the agreement he is after and will leave saying it was not good enough, that will save his face and he will come home strutting like a peacock.
And there will be no June vote
Mean while France and Germany will put the pressure on the smaller countries to agree to our demands by scaring them that if we leave their gravy train will end,
A new agreement will be sought and agreed (same but re worded)
Cameron will come home and triumph it and a vote will happen in the Autumn.
And then we will leave
Cameron will resign and Boris will become PM.
Mean while we will score no points in the eurovision song contest as the whole of the EU spits on us.
I have a new prediction
We will vote to leave by a narrow vote and then Cameron will go back to the EU asking for proper wider reaching new terms - which he will get, this time with ease atfer we have showed them we are serious.
Then there will be a new vote and we will vote to stay by the same narrow margin but ofcoures that one will stik.
Look at the Irish Lisbon treaty vote they said no but the EU made made them vote again until they came up with the "correct" result.
Yep,the old story, keep voting until you get it right :lol
Well that ain't ever gonna happen, 'cos all politicians are self righteous pricks!
Plus, it's simply impossible to keep everyone happy, it just can't be done.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUNOJtfYKcQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUNOJtfYKcQ)
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Never a truer word spoken in jest......https://www.facebook.com/ukipvideos/videos/1725575244324180/ (https://www.facebook.com/ukipvideos/videos/1725575244324180/)
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Cameron is shitting himself and scare mongering, just like he did with the independence referendum. He was No campaign with Scottish independence and Yes regarding Eu. Funnily enough the pattern is very similar. He terrified Scottish pensioners they would lose their pension and the pound. And regards the Eu, telling everyone that major companies will lose money and all our cross channel dealings will be taxed...............
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Something that was mentioned on one or other of the news programmes struck me. Cameron was insistent that we'd leave the EU if he couldn't get the deal he wanted. But now he has it, suddenly he sees it as disastrous to leave. So what has changed?
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There were news reports from the stay-ers that our car exports could be taxed at 10-20 %. But failing to mention that we import more from them than we export, so if they did slap a 20% tax on our exports to them then we would just do the same to theirs, so neither will happen.
Now France are getting nasty and the tone has gone from scaremongering to threats. Bad move France, the British public will not take kindly to threats fro you, seems like they are getting desperate.
The Swiss have now just withdrawn and abandoned their plans to join the EU. France and Germany are terrified that if we go many more will follow.
Meanwhile Putin is deliberately causing more and more refugees to swamp and destabilize the EU, as more countries start to re establish their borders, stupid stupid Merkel saying please come we want you.
Out of EU is not enough, the whole of the uk population should get to the coast and start paddling and don't stop until we are just north of cape verde
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[size=0px]The Swiss have now just withdrawn and abandoned their plans to join the EU.[/size]
Huh? I must have missed that. When did Switzerland ever plan to join the EU?
As for car exports, we won't have any to tax. The manufacturers (like BMW) will leave http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35712537 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35712537)
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Huh? I must have missed that. When did Switzerland ever plan to join the EU?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3473932/Now-Swiss-withdraw-bid-join-EU-Nation-s-parliament-retracts-24-year-old-bid-member-amid-deepening-row-migration.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3473932/Now-Swiss-withdraw-bid-join-EU-Nation-s-parliament-retracts-24-year-old-bid-member-amid-deepening-row-migration.html)
As for car exports, we won't have any to tax. The manufacturers (like BMW) will leave [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35712537[/url] ([url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35712537[/url])
Nowhere in that article does it say they will leave - what they do say is
BMW, highlighting what it sees as the risks
and "significant benefit" the company derives from the free movement of people within the EU.
Show me where in that article it says that BMW will leave
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1. It's in the Daily Mail so it doesn't count as news
2. A 24 year application? Seriously? I can assure you they may have thought about it 24 years ago, but they certainly have no current application to join.
3. Their fears on immigration are about Schengen (or which they are a member) not the EU (which they are not). We of course are not a member of the Schengen agreement.
4. BMW have not said they WILL leave. It's what's known as a heavy handed hint. I think 'Without that, it says, the employment base of the company could be affected.' translates as 'we will move your job somewhere else'
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1. It's in the Daily Mail so it doesn't count as news
I will give you that one - but I did hear it yesterday on the BBC news - or was it sky
BMW have not said they WILL leave. It's what's known as a heavy handed hint. I think 'Without that, it says, the employment base of the company could be affected.' translates as 'we will move your job somewhere else'
Well thats part of the in/out problem - too many people not talking straight, if they would leave why don't they come out and say it. None of these big business have said they will leave - they just talk in vague wishy-wahsy language, so that when they don't leave they wont loose face because they neveractually said they would.
Anyway if they do leave that is only a small part of the story and maybe a price to pay for getting our sovereignty/ own laws and border control back and don't forget we will be 55milion a day better off.
The banks threatened it and stayed, banks and business just don't like uncertainty and all they care about is paying the MD 10million a year, they care not for what the rest of the out implications will be for the rest of us, only what it means in their own trouser pocket.
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If the UK pulled out of the EU we would save the billions of pounds we currently pay in.
With this money we could pay the farmers and whoever the £3.50 that the EU pays them, have more doctors, nurses, policemen and soldiers and still have some change left over to reduce personal and corporate taxation to compensate for the EU import duties that we will have to pay.
In addition, and this will hit individuals harder, if the UK pulls out, we wont be able to go to France or Belgium and fill the cars up with cheap booze and fags.
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I think if the UK vote to leave the EU , the first thing we should do is offer massive tax breaks for EU industries to set up shop here in the UK and allow key workers to come across in training rolls.
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Love or Hate Nigel Farage if Cameron had his balls maybe we wouldn't need a referendum.
https://www.facebook.com/IrelandFirst2015/videos/666686300137865/ (https://www.facebook.com/IrelandFirst2015/videos/666686300137865/)
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to compensate for the EU import duties we will have to pay.
Um that's not right. If we leave the EU it's up to us what import duties we charge for imports into the UK. That's not the problem. The problem is what import duties the EU would charge for exports from the UK to the EU. They might make our exports uncompetitive, together with the absence of free trade and the possibility of restrictions. That's what the EU is, and the EU is our biggest export market. If companies currently in the UK want to supply the EU, they may well choose to move from the UK to another EU member state in order to maintain the absence of import duties and continue to enjoy unrestricted movement of goods.
I'm surprised at the general lack of understanding of what would change if we left.
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Not my favourite person but cannot see a lot wrong here in what he is saying
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and still have some change left over to reduce personal and corporate taxation to compensate for the EU import duties that we will have to pay.
Um that's not right. If we leave the EU it's up to us what import duties we charge for imports into the UK. That's not the problem. The problem is what import duties the EU would charge for exports from the UK to the EU. They might make our exports uncompetitive, together with the absence of free trade and the possibility of restrictions. That's what the EU is, and the EU is our biggest export market. If companies currently in the UK want to supply the EU, they may well choose to move from the UK to another EU member state in order to maintain the absence of import duties and continue to enjoy unrestricted movement of goods.
I'm surprised at the lack of general lack of understanding of what would change if we left.
Think you need to re-write your last sentence again, to this.
I'm surprised at the lack of general understanding of what COULD change if we left.
I do not know what will happen and neither do you. You are surmising what may happen.
The threats are coming thick and fast now from the power makers in Brussels and some businesses BMW to name one. Why are the EU so concerned about the UK exit. I reckon it is because if we go the whole thing will come down like a pack of cards. The Germans and the French will do everything they can to try and hold it together. They may threaten tariffs on UK goods being brought into the EU. So what are they going to do if say Holland decide to exit, Denmark decide to exit, Austria(they will not take refugees now)Finland decide to exit, Sweden decide to exit.
Merkel has caused this and her stupidity over the refugee crisis has as good as split the EU asunder. The rise of the Front National in France , UKIP, Right wing movement in Austria and even inside Germany now, the vote in Britain will not be really about the EU, it is about the UK & EU being swamped by refugees and spongers.
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to compensate for the EU import duties we will have to pay.
Um that's not right. If we leave the EU it's up to us what import duties we charge for imports into the UK. That's not the problem. The problem is what import duties the EU would charge for exports from the UK to the EU.
Yes if they impose high import duties then we will just match it with our own for them - its a non argument.
the EU is our biggest export market.
Biggest single - may be, but not the biggest in total - you are forgetting the rest of the world.
And don't forget that we are also their biggest export market.
Cameron is not only is fighting to stay in the EU but fighting for his job, there is no way he can stay on as PM after an out vote, and then to preside over a smooth quick transition when he has said it will take 10 years and the sky will fall in.
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Perhaps it is an indication of the British apathy that this thread has been read 2460 times but only 58 have voted ? :rolleyes
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I am openly "in", but if the vote is close I honestly believe there will be hypocrisy:
A small vote to stay in - we stay in, end of discussion.
A small vote to leave - "it's too important a decision to leave with such a small majority, we'll go back to the EU and ask for an extra (fill in meaningless concession here, but I'll say "a free biscuit for everyone") and have another vote"
I want to stay in because it's best for me personally, my dad's small business and my daughter who wants to work in various EU countries after Uni, but I don't like the political system (regardless of EU membership).
Cheers
Markie
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Perhaps it is an indication of the British apathy that this thread has been read 2460 times but only 58 have voted ? :rolleyes
Is it because only members can vote but anyone can read, perhaps the MPs are reading it and using it as a true reflection of the wider society to then gauge their policy's.
So im thinking all beer to be free, all fuel for bikes to be free no bike tax or insurance needed and any bike involved in an accident is deemed the innocent party and the other party to pay all costs ------- even if that other party is a hedge !
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I am openly "in", but if the vote is close I honestly believe there will be hypocrisy:
A small vote to stay in - we stay in, end of discussion.
A small vote to leave - "it's too important a decision to leave with such a small majority, we'll go back to the EU and ask for an extra (fill in meaningless concession here, but I'll say "a free biscuit for everyone") and have another vote"
I want to stay in because it's best for me personally, my dad's small business and my daughter who wants to work in various EU countries after Uni, but I don't like the political system (regardless of EU membership).
Cheers
Markie
I fully agree with your first two parts (maybe two bickies ) and said so earlier but its the last bit that I think is a problem because too many people are just thinking for themselves and not the wider picture, ok fair enough but its a case of only looking out for themselves right now and not looking further ahead at the wider picture.
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I fully agree with your first two parts (maybe two bickies ) and said so earlier but its the last bit that I think is a problem because too many people are just thinking for themselves and not the wider picture, ok fair enough but its a case of only looking out for themselves right now and not looking further ahead at the wider picture.
I know what you mean. However if we all vote for (generally) personal interest, doesn't that mean (generally) it's best for the people of the country?
Cheers
Markie
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Good point
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Think you need to re-write your last sentence again, to this.
Not at all. Things will change. What to we don't know, and that is the weakness of the 'Out' campaign's argument.
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MT = What I actually meant was the increased cost to businesses to import into the EU (Export from here) because of increase duties.
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Ah get it now. Except of course the UK producer wouldn't pay the import duty. The EU customer would. We would need to lower our prices to compensate
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Perhaps it is an indication of the British apathy that this thread has been read 2460 times but only 58 have voted ? :rolleyes
Voting closed: 27 February 2016, 11:43:33 AM
The thread is still open for reading and posting on. The thread view count isn't the number of unique viewers.
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Just been on scoobynet forum, their vote for out of EU is running st about 65% .
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I think we should have another vote or re-open the voting as after doing a bit of research I for one have changed my vote from out to fucking definitely out
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fucking definitely out
Wouldn't it be good if that was actually an option on the ballot paper
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Perhaps it is an indication of the British apathy that this thread has been read 2460 times but only 58 have voted ? :rolleyes
just bringing it back to the forefront - perhaps the most important vote we'll have for our childrens future?
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Definite in.
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Perhaps it is an indication of the British apathy that this thread has been read 2460 times but only 58 have voted ? :rolleyes
just bringing it back to the forefront - perhaps the most important vote we'll have for our childrens future?
For what it's worth, I've come to the conclusion it's too important a matter to have a vote on.
Given that the public have been fed nothing but hyperbole and scaremongering through the tabloids, we're in no position to decide effectively.
Leave it to those who are actually qualified to know what the fuck's gonna happen if we stay or leave.
The majority of the UK public are going to vote on their gut instinct, which is dictated by Rupert Murdoch.
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I was a bit pissed off with obama saying the uk would be at the back of the que behind the EU when it comes to trade talks when we leave, and was talking about 10 years-- well thank you our "special friends".
But I suppose that being our special friends he was only saying what Camoron told him to say, also he wont be the President who has to deal with it and so he will not be loosing any face when it doesn't turn the way he was saying.
If we vote out then Camoron AND Doshborn will both also be out too, because there is no way after all their doom-saying that they can then precide over what will be a smooth painless fast transition.
So that is one of the reasons NOT to leave it to the politicians to decide because they will be voting for their own benefit just like they always do.
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OOT
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So much speculation on both sides of the fence, thing is, if we stay in we'll never know if it was the best decision.
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I think we should have another vote or re-open the voting as after doing a bit of research I for one have changed my vote from out to fucking definitely out
:lol