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+--- Thread: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? (/showthread.php?tid=79726)
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Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 29-05-18
I think this is a case of the clutch basket fingers needing filling, but in case it isn't I wanted to check here here for suggestions...
I have to have the clutch lever set so that it has next to no free play, having the default 3mm results in very hard to change gears on a semi regular basis. I notice that mostly when I am coming up to a set of lights..
And if it is the old "grooves in the basket" issue, is there a quick and clean way to do this with the backet still on the engine (as in with all the plates & hub removed) and all the spaces around the basket filled with rags to keep the metal fillings out.
or
Is there a 3rd party replacement for the clutch assy that dosen't cost a fortune..?
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Gnasher - 31-05-18
Check the the cable adjustment at the engine casing and the operation of the pull/lever/rod and bearings, before you start tearing things down.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 31-05-18
(31-05-18, 08:37 AM)Gnasher link Wrote:
- Check the the cable adjustment at the engine casing
- and the operation of the pull/lever/rod and bearings, before you start tearing things down.
- In what way, should there be a specific amount of cable from the end of the adjuster bolt and the arm? to change position of the arm pivot position?
- I assume I can only do this with the cover off? and assuming that what am looking for other than bearing wear and play..?
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - unfazed - 31-05-18
Does it slip into neutral easily when stopped or keep missing it and going to second or first which ever way you are trying?
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 31-05-18
(31-05-18, 08:38 PM)unfazed link Wrote: Does it slip into neutral easily when stopped or keep missing it and going to second or first which ever way you are trying?Its never slipped into another gear, rather just hard to get into a gear sometimes both up and down - which fixed by over adjusting the clutch lever but this treads the line between smooth gear changes at low speeds and the clutch slipping under large throttle openings.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Hugh Mungus - 31-05-18
What Unfazed means is... Is it easy to get into neutral when you stop or is it difficult?
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 31-05-18
(31-05-18, 09:54 PM)Hugh Mungus link Wrote: What Unfazed means is... Is it easy to get into neutral when you stop or is it difficult?From memory, yes easy to go into neutral or any other gear when stopped.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Gnasher - 01-06-18
(31-05-18, 06:18 PM)b1k3rdude link Wrote:
- In what way, should there be a specific amount of cable from the end of the adjuster bolt and the arm? to change position of the arm pivot position?
- I assume I can only do this with the cover off? and assuming that what am looking for other than bearing wear and play..?
The fact you can't get enough free play at the bar is an indication something is wrong. You need to check the operation of the cable, all the adjusters and the clutch release mechanism from one end to the other. Slacken off the lever adjuster and see if the cable is moving freely, then check the arm pivot for movement/operation. It's possible the cable is dry/damaged/out of adjustment and now over stretched and in need of replacement. If all's well with all the above you then need to start digging into the clutch it's self.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - unfazed - 01-06-18
Screw the cable adjuster at the lever back all the way allowing plenty of slack and adjust it at the engine end :rolleyes
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 01-06-18
(01-06-18, 09:41 AM)Gnasher link Wrote: The fact you can't get enough free play at the bar is an indication something is wrong. You need to check the operation of the cable, all the adjusters and the clutch release mechanism from one end to the other. Slacken off the lever adjuster and see if the cable is moving freely, then check the arm pivot for movement/operation. It's possible the cable is dry/damaged/out of adjustment and now over stretched and in need of replacement.I can get free-play just fine, the cable is fairly new with not that many miles and has no stiffness but will check anyway.
(01-06-18, 09:24 PM)unfazed link Wrote: Screw the cable adjuster at the lever back all the way allowing plenty of slack and adjust it at the engine endI will do this to move the arm, to see if it gets more a swing/pivot. But to be honest how much realistically does this gain?
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Gnasher - 02-06-18
Ok you're now telling us more information which helps and changes things i.e. you fitted a new cable.
This now narrows down the possibilities a little. A clutch is really a simple but ingenious device and there is little to go wrong. You're telling us it's difficult/impossible to change gears with the correct amount of free play at the lever...right? This is telling me there's not enough travel in the release mechanism and that isn't a great deal to start with.
The clutch basket being pitted isn't normally the cause of insufficient travel of the release mechanism it's possible but unlikely, what is more usual is semi seized or bent/broken/cracked release arm. The fact that the clutch will release albeit without free play suggest to me something is bent, broken or cracked, this happens when too much force is applied to the release mechanism. As I said earlier you need to release the cable, inspect the release arm for bends/cracks and then check it's operation it should be possible with a tube/pipe over the end to move it, although there is spring pressure it's operation should be smooth in both directions. If it's not there's a problem in the clutch it's self, probably warped plate or plates and or a damaged pressure plate, spring/s or bent bolt/s any of these will make the clutch heavy and reduce release movement.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Hugh Mungus - 02-06-18
Great info there Gnasher - the clutch action on my own Fazer Thou is very heavy. It is smooth but damn heavy. I need to check it out properly. Trouble is that I don't know what the previous owner has/hasn't done to the bike.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Gnasher - 02-06-18
(02-06-18, 12:23 PM)Hugh Mungus link Wrote: Great info there Gnasher - the clutch action on my own Fazer Thou is very heavy. It is smooth but damn heavy. I need to check it out properly. Trouble is that I don't know what the previous owner has/hasn't done to the bike.
Often owners fit up rated springs or just replacements that aren't the same spring rate or length as Std.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Hugh Mungus - 02-06-18
I have thought that may be the case. The clutch can slip a bit if I give it full throttle in the lower gears, if I behave myself it isn't an issue. The heaviness of the clutch lever isn't a big bother to me so I might leave well alone for the time being. I usually find that if I start investigating I always end up spending loads...
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Gnasher - 02-06-18
If it's slipping and it's the std clutch plates often that's due to poor or the wrong oil being used, it could also be a cheap replacement clutch plates having been fitted and poor or the wrong oil.
Std Yamaha complete clutch plate set for an FZS1000 is about £350 odd last time I looked, or you buy the plates separately between £15 - 25 aprrox each, EBC it's £60 odd for just friction plates. If a clutch is in need or replacement plates it will not only be the friction plates that need changing. The drive plates can and often do warp, new fraction plates can and do take up some of that clearance but not for long or not at all. The clutch starts slipping, owners then fit HD springs which flatten the warped plates out, end result heavy clutch action, this can also place undue loads on the release mechanism, this in turn cracks/bends or knackers the bearing in that mechanism.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 03-06-18
(02-06-18, 12:40 PM)Gnasher link Wrote: Often owners fit up rated springs or just replacements that aren't the same spring rate or length as Std.I have found 3rd party springs are always too heavy and have always gone with stock.
Back on topic -
- I have stock clutch plates and 3rd party friction plates which were fitted about 2yrs ago, the bike has only done 10k in that time
- The cable fitted about a year ago and has only done a few k.
- I have span adjustable levers on the bike because the stock clutch lever has the biting point out way to far(almost at the end of lever travel, which my medium sized hands do not enjoy)
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 03-06-18
(03-06-18, 12:22 PM)b1k3rdude link Wrote: I'm going to check the arm and see if there is any freeplay in the arm-shaft bearing.
- Cable moves freely, with a little friction - so lubed.
- Clutch shaft arm dosen't show any signs of cracking.
- The above arm has a little freeplay vertically that can be heard but not seen.
- The Clutch shaft has a little lateral freeplay, but again that can be heard but not seen.
- With the cable unattached, the above shaft moves freely & smoothly.
- With the cable not attached, pressing the arm against the pull-rod with my thumb - I can begin to fee the tension of the clutch springs.
- I had a spare 'better qaulity' set of span adjustable levers in the cupboard so swapped those with the cheaper chinese ones (that were still fine and had no wear) - thre idea being that maybe the tolerances on the pivot and distance form bar maybe better.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - Gnasher - 04-06-18
Ok more info, reference adjustable levers
These can even good one's really play havoc's with the feel and setting of clutches and won't help. The cheaper Chinese although they look the same and do a reasonable job they're often aren't up the the job, the tolerances on the dimensions just isn't there and a mm here and there can make a huge difference. I've had this issue many times on owners bikes I've worked on, same with brake levers.
From what you've thus far told us and providing there no real issues the the clutch basket, my money is on the non OE springs and plates. As I said earlier the clutch release mechanism moves only a matter of a few mm, non OE plates can be slightly thinner, thus cheaper or indeed thicker to compensate for lower spec material being used, same with springs.
If what you've now done hasn't worked, I'd go for springs, change these for OE easy to do. Or while you've got the cover off just strip the clutch and check all the plates for wear/thickness and warpage just remember to put them back in the correct order.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - b1k3rdude - 05-06-18
(04-06-18, 09:06 AM)Gnasher link Wrote:
- reference adjustable levers, even good one's really play havoc's with the feel and setting of clutches and won't help. The tolerances on the dimensions just isn't there and a mm here and there can make a huge difference. I've had this issue many times on owners bikes I've worked on, same with brake levers.
- From what you've thus far told us and providing there no real issues the the clutch basket, my money is on the non OE springs and plates. As I said earlier the clutch release mechanism moves only a matter of a few mm, non OE plates can be slightly thinner, thus cheaper or indeed thicker to compensate for lower spec material being used, same with springs.
- If what you've now done hasn't worked, I'd go for springs, change these for OE easy to do. Or while you've got the cover off just strip the clutch and check all the plates for wear/thickness and warpage just remember to put them back in the correct order.
- Well so after 2 days with the better span adjustable ( V-Trec, bought from a fellow foccer) levers (greased and adjusted), the issue hasn't re-presented itself, but I also have to factor in that I have lightly lubed the cable (squirted from top enough that it should trickle down) and squirted the arm pivot and top of the pull-rode shaft. The better levers seem to have better bit-point distance & control even with 3mm of free-play - this make me think the shape and sweep of the chinese levers was too acute (came close to the bars, so once span-adjusted the lever was too close to the bar)
- I think I mentioned I am running OE spring and plates, both of which have less than 10k on.
- If the issue comes back then I will strip and examine the clutch plates and springs for tolerances.
Re: Clutch biting point issue, worn clutch basket? - unfazed - 05-06-18
Check the pivot hole in the old lever you removed and see if it has elongated.