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+--- Thread: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares (/showthread.php?tid=77656)
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Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 13-03-17
i need some handling help badly :'(
I fitted Luke's R6 shock .... all good handling improved but thought it could be better so I ended up getting a garage to fit hagon progressives, I weighed up linear but as I'm going to be doing a fair bit of touring I went for progressives as a compromise. On getting it back coming on M25 it felt twitchy at high speeds and on getting home tyre pressures were 44front 48 rear (garage said they were low and did them ) so I put back to 36/42 and it was like running on flats and weaved so I upped them a bit to 40/44 and it improved, today I went out to see if it was suspension settings causing it so put back to 36/42 ( with my own new gauge ) and slowly bit by bit went through every combination of suspension settings but the front preload will not go to its softest setting it goes to 4 and a little bit then stops.
In all settings the front is like a pogo stick and On some settings it judders over even tiny bumps so hard my hands come off the bars, it was never like this standard so have the hagons been fitted wrongly ? What else could they have done to cause this, it gives no confidence in slower corners and feels like I'm tucking the front, it also feels like it's pulling to the right ( all settings even ) and in medium speed corners it feels like the front is under steering.
I had hel lines fitted at same time and now when pulling brake lever I get clunking( checked steering head bearing play and felt ok ) which I never had before and throw in the carburation problems I may or may not be having ( went to start after going in a shop and it backfired and every time it starts now there's very strong smell of fuel and difficult to start without handful of throttle ) and I'm about ready to throw in the towel with this bike and I'm wishing I got an FZ1 instead.
If anyone has any ideas please let me know
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Grayo - 13-03-17
I've only ever had progressive springs fitted once and absolutely hated them. I had similar issues to yours and went back to linear springs. Problem solved, although that was on a GSX1400. I have had the clunking noise on my Gen 2 though and that too was after fitting braided hoses. It turned out that the front calipers were worn and the clunking noise was the brake pads moving in the calipers under braking. I managed to find a very good set of second hand calipers, that came off a very low mileage bike, at a breakers for £120 and that too solved the problem. Can't help with your fuelling problem sorry.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Falcon 269 - 13-03-17
If the front was basically OK before the garage changed the springs, then logically the problems have been caused by their work. I would find it hard to believe that the springs alone could be causing such drastic handling concerns, so take it back and explain the symptoms.
It could be any of a number of things wrong with the installation, from springs fitted the wrong way up or binding in the stanchion; incorrect/too much/too little fork oil; fork dampers not properly bled etc.
I fitted Hyperpro progressives to a mate's Fazer many years ago and found them a definite improvement over the stock springs, so I don't discount progressive springs as eagerly as others seem to.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 13-03-17
Thanks Grayo and falcon
I'm going to go back to garage tomorrow, it seems Monday they're closed ( like a lot of garages oddly ) so I'm a bit stuck til then. I must confess to losing faith in the garage after they overtightened the chain ( didn't ask them to ) and did the tyre pressures so high ( again didn't ask them to ) and as it was there I got them to replace the heated grips and now the clutch side grip has come unstuck and moves around, I did due diligence and they had loads of good ratings online and a friend said they were good so don't know what else I can do
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Ricky - 13-03-17
Hi Graham your bike comes with progressive springs as standard, so they are what the bike was designed to run on. I have Hyperpro progressive springs in mine and Luke R6 shock kits. Had problems with mine to start with , spoke to Luke and he'd spent a lot of time helping me out, but the front settings back from Hyperpro settings to the Yamaha standard settings and very very much improved, will now run and see how I go.Do not give up, I think you're mechanics have got some thing wrong, speak to Luke he really knows his stuf and I am sure will help you out. Good luck.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - PieEater - 13-03-17
I would contact Hagon and ask if there are any specific recommendations for fitting their springs to the Fazer and then confirm with the workshop whether what they have don is correct. I know that Hyperpro recommend a 170mm air gap with their springs which is less oil than the Yamaha recommended 140mm air gap. If the Hagon springs also require less oil but the workshop have refilled to what Yamaha specify this could explain why the suspension doesn't feel right.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 13-03-17
(13-03-17, 08:58 PM)Ricky link Wrote: Hi Graham your bike comes with progressive springs as standard, so they are what the bike was designed to run on. I have Hyperpro progressive springs in mine and Luke R6 shock kits. Had problems with mine to start with , spoke to Luke and he'd spent a lot of time helping me out, but the front settings back from Hyperpro settings to the Yamaha standard settings and very very much improved, will now run and see how I go.Do not give up, I think you're mechanics have got some thing wrong, speak to Luke he really knows his stuf and I am sure will help you out. Good luck.Didn't know that OE was progressives, the ones I got back looked linear, I took all the settings back to standard factory fresh but noticed that rebound damping screws were really difficult to move, didn't know if that's normal.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 13-03-17
(13-03-17, 09:25 PM)PieEater link Wrote: I would contact Hagon and ask if there are any specific recommendations for fitting their springs to the Fazer and then confirm with the workshop whether what they have don is correct. I know that Hyperpro recommend a 170mm air gap with their springs which is less oil than the Yamaha recommended 140mm air gap. If the Hagon springs also require less oil but the workshop have refilled to what Yamaha specify this could explain why the suspension doesn't feel right.Just checked Hagons are 150mm gap. Not having the most experience with working on forks ( none) can I undo the tops to check the springs are in right way and measure oil gap without dismantling them entirely ?
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Simon.Pieman - 13-03-17
(13-03-17, 08:58 PM)Ricky link Wrote: Hi Graham your bike comes with progressive springs as standard, so they are what the bike was designed to run on.
Actually not true, the forks actually have a damping system that works in a linear range wheareas prog springs work exponentially so not an ideal match in engineering terms. Prog springs are sometimes fitted because the weaker part of the spring has a less harsh compression so feels more comfy. The correct linear spring works at least as well and often better than a prog spring.
The standard springs are dual rate i think.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 13-03-17
Yup standard springs are dual rate, I've just had a fight with a curtain of spiders webs to grab them out of the shed for a look.
I really feel there must be something amiss with fitting and suspicious of mechanic to have upped the tyre pressures so high after telling me they were so low it was almost unridable which I knew they weren't, then telling me that they put in the standard pressures of 36/42 which I knew they hadn't, I didn't put in 44/48(cold pressures) unless it was the tyre pixies it sounds to me he took it for a test ride and found the problems I'm having and upped the pressures to cover it.
Looks like I've got a lot of telephoning to do tomorrow, I feel a mr angry day coming on ?
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - ProdigalSon - 14-03-17
I must be a bit weird as having read all the posts about how awful the standard suspension is and not having a huge budget at the moment, I bought a BMW S1000RR rear shock ready to start improving the handling on my bike at an early stage.
Well so far I've been surprised that the stock suspension seems to work pretty well although I appreciate the roads are still cold so I'm not pushing as hard as I will be doing in the summer. The rear suspension was on very soft settings when I got the bike and the front quite firm. I've upped the damping on the rear shock to just a click above the stock settings and so far it's been fine.
I'm getting new top hat bushings machined by a friend for the BMW shock this week and he'll drill the bottom fork at the same time so it will be ready to fit if I feel the need, as for the front I'll look at upgrading that if I do change the rear.
I have standard rubber hoses on my brakes and they work fine, they're actually much stronger than the brakes I had on my GSXR1000 K8, though the Gixxer brakes are renowned for being weak.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Tefer - 14-03-17
If you say where you stay maybe someone could recommend a different garage or a more technical foccer could maybe come have a look at the forks?
It sounds like that garage is not working for you with all the issues though so i would definitely be looking at somewhere different, maybe a suspension orientated place?
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 14-03-17
(14-03-17, 09:50 AM)Tefer link Wrote: If you say where you stay maybe someone could recommend a different garage or a more technical foccer could maybe come have a look at the forks?Thanks Tefer, I'm in Essex nr to Epping. There seems to be a distinct lack of decent mechanics ( that I've heard of ) and this one came recommended but after overtightening the chain and when I pointed it out was told " oh you don't want to take notice of what the handbook says that's too loose" my head said run away, unfortunately that was after they'd done the work and I'd never asked them to adjust the chain, then told me the tyre pressures was low and when I pointed out they'd done them too high suggested that all garage forecourt air lines were wrong and my gauge wasn't calibrated correctly. They also tried selling me a dynojet kit saying that they were better than Ivan's as they do more R&D and every Fazer owner that had a dynojet kit fitted by them was impressed with the outcome. Needless to say I don't want to go back there even if the springs were fitted incorrectly I've got no confidence they'll do it right second time
It sounds like that garage is not working for you with all the issues though so i would definitely be looking at somewhere different, maybe a suspension orientated place?
MCT are my next call, they do a ride in and ride out service so I'll see what they can do/suggest they're about a 2 hour ride but most of it's straight road so I might be ok ?
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Tefer - 14-03-17
Yeah i would defo be looking elsewhere, unfortunately i'm in Bonnie Scotland so can't help you with a garage in Essex. Hopefully another foccer will now see and maybe give some other options, otherwise its gonna be that 2 hour ride, maybe not a bad thing on a nice day.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Kenbob - 14-03-17
Wow, you got to hand it to them, they foc yer bike yet they want to sell you stuff, play with your carbs and really mess it up.
Should be a thread of recommended bike mechanics and not so recommended bike mechanics.
Probs not the legal thing to do though.
Who are these guys just in case I'm in the area,I do go to Essex now and again.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 14-03-17
Not sure either but ... the last time I had work done on my bike it was S&D motorcycles Brentwood, look them up, Google, facetube , yell , all got top ratings,
I just called MCT and got bike booked in for the front suspension to be done at least I know they won't foc it up, got to wait til end of May though. Until then it's going back to stock
Re the idea of recommended garages/ dealers etc I think it's a great idea . Sort of a Trusted Fazers instead of trusted traders
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - mtread - 14-03-17
Graham - bit of a ride for you but I always use Sopers of Leigh-on-Sea. Excellent service and decent prices.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Simon.Pieman - 14-03-17
(14-03-17, 04:16 PM)mtread link Wrote: Graham - bit of a ride for you but I always use Sopers of Leigh-on-Sea. Excellent service and decent prices.
My local shop too when I'm staying in my Essex pad, I also use Paul over the road in Southsea Avenue for jobs I can't be arsed doing myself.
Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - Graham53 - 14-03-17
Thanks gents , I don't mind the ride if I know it's trustworthy , I've just noticed now that the hel lines they fitted ( I thought let them do it as they're doing springs saves me the fluid everywhere) rub against the clocks on full lock :'( .
The biggest problem is getting back home and back there again to pick it up I could always combine it with a day at the seaside
fish chips n service.Re: Hagon progressives were they fitted correctly/ handling nightmares - tommyardin - 14-03-17
(13-03-17, 08:58 PM)Ricky link Wrote: Hi Graham your bike comes with progressive springs as standard, so they are what the bike was designed to run on. I have Hyperpro progressive springs in mine and Luke R6 shock kits. Had problems with mine to start with , spoke to Luke and he'd spent a lot of time helping me out, but the front settings back from Hyperpro settings to the Yamaha standard settings and very very much improved, will now run and see how I go.Do not give up, I think you're mechanics have got some thing wrong, speak to Luke he really knows his stuf and I am sure will help you out. Good luck.
I was told that the FZS 600 came with Progressive springs as standard, but in fact they are not progressive they are 'Dual Rate' springs please see photo of the springs i removed from my FZS 600.
Progressive Spring as the name implies change rate slowly from one end to the other (Slow change in the pitch of the spring from one end to the other) = smooth increasing compression transition, stiffening throughout their length, should equal better handling.
Dual Rate Spring (See picture) again as the name implies two compression rates, after the initial softer rate is overcome the second harder or stiffer rate come into play causing changes in the motorcycles geometry (Especially when cranked over into a bend and hitting undulations in the road surface) = arse clamping up and nasty marks in your Y fronts.
See the piccy and the spring rate changes at the place my finger is pointing.
My understanding is that progressives are a vast improvement on the Standard Yamaha Springs, but it is a 'One Spring Suits All' situation
Ideally one spring can not suit a 9 stone rider and the same spring suit a 20 stone rider, it will always be a compromise.
With Linear the spring rate stays the same throughout the total length of the spring,
of course progression still comes into play but it does not change rate = better stability, constant contact and feel and little or no diving in or running wide on a bend because of geometry changes because of bumps and lumps mid bend. You purchase the spring rate to suit your on board rider weight.
Please remember these rantings are only my opinion and lots of others will have differing opinions, its a bit like tyre choice, brake pads, engine oil, air filters, braided lines, (Only it's nothing like those choices really I am just saying that to patronise you) but of course when it comes to bike colour choice it's SILVER every time = no choice :lol
Lots of very cleaver guys on here when it comes to suspension Kabab19 and Devilsyam for a start, look up their writings and thoughts on the subject, me I'm just a newbie, still learning and still getting it wrong sometimes.