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+--- Thread: thundercat vs Fazer (/showthread.php?tid=65570)
thundercat vs Fazer - simonm - 19-09-13
Whilst looking to see if thundercat brake levers would fit on a FZS600 I wondered why it's widely stated that the Fazer (95bhp) is based on a detuned thundercat (89BHP) engine.
How is it detuned if it has more power than the thundercat ? (I understand the thundercat probably has more low end and maybe through the rev range due to the ram-air doo dah ?)
It looks like the Thundercat has 87.7 bhp @ 11,250RPM whilst the Fazer has 95 bhp @ 11,500RPM. The Thundercat is allegedly 223kg and the Fazer 189kg. Surely the weight makes up for some of the lack of power ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the seating position and front forks and fairing make the Thundercat a quicker bike, I'm just wondering how the engine is 'detuned', it sounds like an insult since at certain times (??) it will be more powerful than it's brethren.
I know Punk likes the Thundercat and that is enough for me to safely believe that it is a cracking bike, this is not supposed to be a criticism of either bike, just a question.
I wonder if anyone can point me to a dyno from a stock Thundercat and a stock FZS as that may shed some light on it for me.
TIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_FZS600_Fazer
http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/yamaha/fzs600-fazer/
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - Dead Eye - 19-09-13
That would be because you are measuring the power at two different locations haha
The 87.7 bhp of the Thundercat is at the Rear Wheel whereas the 95 bhp of the Fazer is at the crank
Rear Wheel horsepower is always less than when measured at the crank. I think the Fazer is around 80 bhp (complete guess) at the crank?
Edit:
Look at these pages for some reference - Rear Wheel bhp for Thundercat is listed as 91 bhp and the Fazer as 83.3 bhp (I was pretty close with my guess ^^)
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_fzs600_fazer%2098.htm
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_yzf600r%2098.htm
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - noggythenog - 19-09-13
All the info ive seen on here about the subject states that the fazer isnt really based on the thundercat but does have some common parts but basically different bikes hence you cant put a thundercat engine in a fazer or vice versa.
It is something the press picked up on & kinda an urban legend.
Hope that helps
Thundercats are nice though, always liked them 8) , probably suits my riding style better but i still love my :faz
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - kebab19 - 19-09-13
The Cat's dry weight is actually 187kg vs the Fazer's 189kg
Power-wise you're the wrong way round, they are virtually the same until the top of the rev-range, where the cat pulls another 7 or 8 ponies. The Fazer makes about 80 @ the back wheel while the cat makes almost 90. The Cat uses downdraught carbs that probably flow better whereas the FZS carbs are more conventional, ramair type airbox system probably gives the top-end extra shunt too.
The aerodynamics of a full fairing give the cat another 10mph over the FZS. Cat suspension (particularly front) also p1sses over standard Fazer suspension, so a much better 'performance' bike, just not as comfortable. I was actually going to get a Cat but someone swapped their Fzs600 for my old bike & cash.....
Actually, it's probably better to think of both the Thundercat and Fazer's engines being heavily based on their predecessor - the FZR600R (1994-1995). Both are variations, the Cat a more powerful update of the deltabox / airbox-where-the-petrol-tank-should-be sportsbike setup, the Fazer a more conventional airbox behind carbs setup. You can certainly blame it when your 2nd gear starts slipping out....the part numbers for rebuild date back to the FZR
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - Ruby Racing - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 11:22 AM)noggythenog link Wrote: All the info ive seen on here about the subject states that the fazer isnt really based on the thundercat but does have some common parts but basically different bikes hence you cant put a thundercat engine in a fazer or vice versa.
It is something the press picked up on & kinda an urban legend.
A lot of the reason for not being able to put the sports bike motor of a bike into the naked version is to do with the intakes. On the sports bike they are pointing upwards and on the naked, parallel with the road. You physically don't have any room for the carbs to fit between the top frame rails and then there is no space for the airbox as the fuel tank is in the way.
On the inside there are probably lots of differences, but on the outside they do look like very similar motors.
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - simonm - 19-09-13
Thanks everyone, just what I was looking for. Learning is fun :lol
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - JoeRock - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 10:56 AM)simonm link Wrote: Whilst looking to see if thundercat brake levers would fit on a FZS600 I wondered why it's widely stated that the Fazer (95bhp) is based on a detuned thundercat (89BHP) engine.
How is it detuned if it has more power than the thundercat ? (I understand the thundercat probably has more low end and maybe through the rev range due to the ram-air doo dah ?)
It looks like the Thundercat has 87.7 bhp @ 11,250RPM whilst the Fazer has 95 bhp @ 11,500RPM. The Thundercat is allegedly 223kg and the Fazer 189kg. Surely the weight makes up for some of the lack of power ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the seating position and front forks and fairing make the Thundercat a quicker bike, I'm just wondering how the engine is 'detuned', it sounds like an insult since at certain times (??) it will be more powerful than it's brethren.
I know Punk likes the Thundercat and that is enough for me to safely believe that it is a cracking bike, this is not supposed to be a criticism of either bike, just a question.
I wonder if anyone can point me to a dyno from a stock Thundercat and a stock FZS as that may shed some light on it for me.
TIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_FZS600_Fazer
http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/yamaha/fzs600-fazer/
Other note Simon is that ram air only works at high speeds. It's basically a very basic form of a turbo - you have scoops at the front which when riding, send air into the airbox. The quicker you go, the more air is forced into the airbox! Was an experiment done (I'll see if I can find the write up) on a ZX9R (one of the first big sports bikes to have a proper ram air system) - whilst around town it doesn't make a difference, at speeds of about 140+ the ram air essentially added about 6hp to the bike!
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - JoeRock - 19-09-13
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - noggythenog - 19-09-13
Very interesting Joe, & thats even before ive looked at the link.
Explains how pointless it is all the boy racers putting these scoops on their car grills as it takes a car so long to get to high speed in the uk that its worthless......a bike however is surprisingly easy to get to these speeds..
Got me thinking now of how to incorporate a bit of forced air for the fazer......just for the crack....if im totally honest i would like it allot better if it also sounded the shizny...i had a K&N typhoon on my type-r & the sound that thing made was worth the sound alone even if it didnt make any hp change. 8)
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - mr self destruct - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 04:02 PM)noggythenog link Wrote: Explains how pointless it is all the boy racers putting these scoops on their car grills as it takes a car so long to get to high speed in the uk that its worthless.
A few years ago me and a mate tried it with a 1.8 carbed VW Jetta, took a headlight out and made a scoop direct to the carb. The idea being that the larger diameter of the scoop leading to the smaller diameter of the carb throat would increase the intake speed and therefore engine power.
It made one hell of a difference in performance.
The carb iced up almost immediately and the engine wouldn't tick over. :lol
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - Motorbreath - 19-09-13
From magazines:
Cats have about 10hp more than fazer at dyno. Add some horses at high speed. But despite yamaha said, cats are about 10kg heavier than fazers.
I just was looking at this right now. Check the "first thing to do" for cats :lol . I am glad I went to the Fazer/Ace way! :
http://s642.photobucket.com/user/woodpants/media/PB%20Suspension%20Set-Up%20Mannual/04b439ec.gif.html?sort=6&o=32
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - Slaninar - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 05:14 PM)Motorbreath link Wrote: Check the "first thing to do" for cats :lol .
LOL.
I'd go for an R6, or a GSXR for a more racing bike, not the heavy fazer's older brother.
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - nick crisp - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 04:02 PM)noggythenog link Wrote: Very interesting Joe, & thats even before ive looked at the link.
Explains how pointless it is all the boy racers putting these scoops on their car grills as it takes a car so long to get to high speed in the uk that its worthless......a bike however is surprisingly easy to get to these speeds..
Got me thinking now of how to incorporate a bit of forced air for the fazer......just for the crack....if im totally honest i would like it allot better if it also sounded the shizny...i had a K&N typhoon on my type-r & the sound that thing made was worth the sound alone even if it didnt make any hp change. 8)
When I had my FZR1000 EXUP, I once enquired of a tuning firm if they could make it ram air (it has the "hoover" tubes, but they only actually deliver air to the area around the cam box - not sure why Yam did this). The firm in question said they'd been trying to achieve this with an RC30 Honda for some months, "several thousand pounds spent so far", and they still hadn't got it right! I remember from somewhere that Kawasaki spent ages and a fortune perfecting their ram air systems. Air boxes are apparently very sensitive things, full of baffle plates and chambers of various sizes etc, not easy to design for best effect.
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - Punkstig - 19-09-13
As I have the Thundercat donor bike I'd wondered about the ram air system being transfered to the fazer but my skills lack for that much, as far as I can tell it would require changing the carbs too, and I'm not sure if that would mean also swapping ecu's, as there's a lot of questions and all my work is done out on the road I don't think It's feasible for me, especially as the maximum time I'd have to play would be a weekend as I'd need it running for work!
People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
The extra power of the cat is definitely noticeable, the ram air system isn't just a tube straight into the air box, there's 2 extra (smaller) air boxes in either fairing which the front scoops feed first then it goes into the airbox, obviously the size and shape of these side air boxes do some wizardry to the air flow and possibly density!
I do prefer the cat, just for the extra bit of power and its just as comfortable to me as the fazer!
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - nick crisp - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 07:37 PM)Punkstig link Wrote: As I have the Thundercat donor bike I'd wondered about the ram air system being transfered to the fazer but my skills lack for that much, as far as I can tell it would require changing the carbs too, and I'm not sure if that would mean also swapping ecu's, as there's a lot of questions and all my work is done out on the road I don't think It's feasible for me, especially as the maximum time I'd have to play would be a weekend as I'd need it running for work!
People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
The extra power of the cat is definitely noticeable, the ram air system isn't just a tube straight into the air box, there's 2 extra (smaller) air boxes in either fairing which the front scoops feed first then it goes into the airbox, obviously the size and shape of these side air boxes do some wizardry to the air flow and possibly density!
I do prefer the cat, just for the extra bit of power and its just as comfortable to me as the fazer!
It probably makes more sense to street fighter a T/cat, than add t/cat bits to a Fazer.
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - Punkstig - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 07:51 PM)nick crisp link Wrote: [quote author=Punkstig link=topic=9956.msg102657#msg102657 date=1379615855]
As I have the Thundercat donor bike I'd wondered about the ram air system being transfered to the fazer but my skills lack for that much, as far as I can tell it would require changing the carbs too, and I'm not sure if that would mean also swapping ecu's, as there's a lot of questions and all my work is done out on the road I don't think It's feasible for me, especially as the maximum time I'd have to play would be a weekend as I'd need it running for work!
People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
The extra power of the cat is definitely noticeable, the ram air system isn't just a tube straight into the air box, there's 2 extra (smaller) air boxes in either fairing which the front scoops feed first then it goes into the airbox, obviously the size and shape of these side air boxes do some wizardry to the air flow and possibly density!
I do prefer the cat, just for the extra bit of power and its just as comfortable to me as the fazer!
It probably makes more sense to street fighter a T/cat, than add t/cat bits to a Fazer.
[/quote]
Exactly Nick,
Funnily enough I was thinking the other day isn't it strange that there's a few of us out there making our 'comfortable' sports tourer more sporty, then you have the likes of sports bike riders doing the opposite when doing the streetfighter thing!
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - nick crisp - 19-09-13
A lot of us are guilty of that tho Stig. Here's me considering R1 forks and an R6 shock for mine. Just cos it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I guess... :\ Are we in search of the perfect compromise, and if so, is there any hope of finding it?
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - simonm - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 05:14 PM)Motorbreath link Wrote: http://s642.photobucket.com/user/woodpants/media/PB%20Suspension%20Set-Up%20Mannual/04b439ec.gif.html?sort=6&o=32
(19-09-13, 03:47 PM)JoeRock link Wrote: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/
Both brilliant links. Thank you.
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - Punkstig - 19-09-13
(19-09-13, 08:27 PM)nick crisp link Wrote: A lot of us are guilty of that tho Stig. Here's me considering R1 forks and an R6 shock for mine. Just cos it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I guess... :\ Are we in search of the perfect compromise, and if so, is there any hope of finding it?Well mine started because one of my fork legs was bent and I had no money but a written off Tcat just sitting there so it made sense to swap shit over for free,
Buuuut, ultimately, for those of us that do just the smallest mod even of its wheel rim stripes and dust caps I think its just because we want that personal feeling that, that particular bike is ours and in our minds its unique!
Re: thundercat vs Fazer - nick crisp - 20-09-13
I've been racking my brains (simple task!) to try to think of something different to do to mine, but it all seems to have been done before. Short of having a full engineering workshop and the skills to use it, I guess it'll have to remain pretty much bolt-on goodies for me
But I do love these bikes even as standard, so nowt really to complain of