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+--- Thread: Installation thread for Debrix fork cartridge emulators - Group buyers (/showthread.php?tid=64899)
Installation thread for Debrix fork cartridge emulators - Group buyers - kebab19 - 07-08-13
Ok I have posted up details of my Gold Valve fork mod http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,71.0.html
and updated that more recently with my discovery of much cheaper Debrix emulators that work just as well http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,8366.0.html
I have since posted up details that even standard fork springs can have their spring rates increased my shortening them http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9269.0.html meaning that even people with standard fork springs still fitted could benefit a fair bit from this mod. Anyone with aftermarket springs already installed is nearly there already.
So after some interest I have put this post up to see if anyone is interested in a group buy for these emulators. The reason for resorting to a group buy is postage: these emus are only available from the United States and postage (shipping) when buying them individually almost doubles their price. I have contacted Debrix and they have offered me a discount of 5% (whoopee-dooo :\ ). To send over 10 sets of emulators using today's (7th August) exchange rate is $435 or about £285. This is of course before HM Customs bend me over once it lands over here, but even so I don't think the emus will be over £35 each. This group buy approach has been done a couple of times by Suzuki SV650 owners: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=174548
So if anyone out there is interested in trying these emulators out can they make it known to me?
Oh, just to say that I *might* offer a 'service' in modding people's forks for these emus if you're concerned about surgery. It would involve draining existing fork oil, disassembling to get the damper rod out, drilling the compression circuit out, sealing the rebound circuit (optional) & reinstalling everything including new 15w Yamalube fork oil. Where someone has standard fork springs I could shorten them & if necessary introduce a longer internal metal spacer to compensate for additional emu height & rider weight etc etc. Takes about a day to do it all.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - Motorbreath - 07-08-13
I would have been very interested, but I have taken an easier way and bought a bike with cartridge forks. It is remarkable how firm its compression damping is when braking hard, and how soft it is when hitting a bump.
Modifying the Fazer with higher viscosity oil (SAE 20) and linear springs (1 kg/mm) do help for spirited riding but reduce comfort and still feels springy. Still the Ace feels much firmer when braking even when it has just SAE 5 oil and 0.80 kg/mm springs and it is a heavier bike (fazer standard dual rate springs are 0.75/1.4!)
If those emulators do really work like cartridges, they are a must. My modding parts are for sale by the way.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - Fazerider - 07-08-13
Count me in please!
I'd like to get hold of a spare pair of damper tubes before I start drilling holes in mine, but improving the suspension is something I've been meaning to do for ages.
(The rear is more in need of attention of course, so I've also been following that R6 shock thread of yours with interest too... currently trying to figure out what difference the shorter unit will make to the rising rate linkage.)
I'm sure there will be a fair bit of interest on here, but if you're on the SV650 site too you might find more customers there if FZS600 owners are reluctant to be early adopters.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - wezdavo - 07-08-13
Count me in..
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - Fuzzy - 08-08-13
I've been looking into this mod with interest (as well as the R6 mod of course) - count me in too!
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - kebab19 - 20-08-13
Okay that's 3 so far, possibly four - is there anyone else interested?
I have also just posted on the SV650 site regarding this Group Buy & expect a few of them to also express interest.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - mobile mouse - 21-08-13
I too have been following this topic with interest.
I am interested but just need confirmation.....
Would it be £35 each so you need quantity 2. So £70.
What cost would you be doing the mod for (just fitting the emulators and keeping spring std). I have just bought the 15W oil, dust and oil seals for my forks refurb.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - kebab19 - 21-08-13
Mr Mouse
No, the estimate of £35 is for both emulators
Sounds like you have nearly everything you need at hand already! Not sure about the price of doing the work; if you mean drilling out the damper rods it wouldn't be very much, although I do need to keep my wife's wine supply topped up
UPDATE: Four SV650 owners have already declared their interest, I might expand the order to a dozen sets if there's a late surge of interest here :rollin
For info: Here's a similar emulator installation (Racetech £££ versions) on an FZ6, but it's in Spanish, unfortunately Mejora horquilla Fazer fz6 : Instalación Gold Valve Kit
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - Tefer - 21-08-13
I could be interested at £35.
Don't have the technical savy to fit them tho so will need to ask a mate about the work.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - 69oldskool - 21-08-13
Read with interest your gold valve mod article some time ago, defo interested in a £35ish budget version.
So count me in please.
As an aside~
after Kebabs' inspirational article i put some "variable dampers" out of an old fz600 into my equally old xj600f & it really made a difference, much more 'planted' up front.
Not much info out there on Yamahas' "variable dampers" but i think they're in essence the same thing.
Interestingly the fz & xj damper rods had the same number,spacing & sized holes in them.
Do You think it's really necessarry to enlarge the existing fazer ones Kebab?
What would happen if you didn't?
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - mobile mouse - 21-08-13
Thank you count me in, please.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - kebab19 - 22-08-13
Oldskool,
I'm glad you have tried something different with your old hardware; people settle for standard stuff too often when they can be improved cheaply.
Regarding the damper rod holes, probably best to start by reading this: http://www.racetech.com/page/title/Emulators-How%20They%20Work
(Racetech originally designed the cartridge-emulator valves). I have lifted what I think are the relevant parts below.
"Compression damping is controlled by the number and size of the compression damping holes and the rebound damping hole(s) along with the oil viscosity.
This type of damping is referred to as orifice-style damping because the resistance is created by forcing oil through holes or orifices.
As long as the compression stroke is not too rapid, orifice damping can provide a reasonably comfortable ride as the front wheel hits small bumps. Unfortunately, not all bumps are rounded and small in size—when a square-edged or large bump is encountered, orifice damping can create a very harsh ride. Because oil is not compressible, the faster the fork compresses, the faster the oil is forced through the compression damping holes.
As long as the compression stroke is not too rapid, orifice damping can provide a reasonably comfortable ride as the front wheel hits small bumps. Unfortunately, not all bumps are rounded and small in size—when a square-edged or large bump is encountered, orifice damping can create a very harsh ride. Because oil is not compressible, the faster the fork compresses, the faster the oil is forced through the compression damping holes.
Perhaps you’ve considered increasing the compression damping hole size as the solution for the harshness problem.
The larger damping hole will be mushier, though it will be better at high speed. This style of damping seems to provide the worst of both worlds—harshness and bottoming.
The Emulator takes over compression damping duties from the damping rod. To do this the damping rod compression holes are enlarged and, depending on the model, increased in number. With larger flow area the restriction at the compression holes becomes negligible. It is certainly still there, but the effect is so small it is no longer significant. Instead, all the compression damping takes place in the Emulator"
So, the emu takes over compression damping by controlling oil flow and this is achieved by killing off the original compression circuit. But you've asked a good question, how much (if any) is enough to override the standard system? I can't give a definite answer but can only draw info from others, and the most popular usage of these types of emulators are the SV650 owners, whose forks are apparently even worse than ours. There are lots of opinions about the amount of holes and how much to enlarge them. Some claim that drilling holes is not necessary, others that enlarging the existing holes is enough, others saying you need extra holes.
Here is an example of the bunfight / gunfight regarding the drilling of holes:
http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78075
Me? I'm going with the opinions of the emu inventors but you may want to start by keeping the damper rods in their original state.
From a structural point of view, the more holes (or larger the holes) you drill the weaker the damping rod becomes. I drilled six holes, which on hindsight was probably overkill and if I was doing it again I'd probably drill less holes. You could start with two 8mm holes at the bottom of the damper, but IMO that would be a minimum starting point. If it's not enough to you will still have some of the original harshness as the original compression circuit has not been over-ridden. This means you'll have to take it all apart again in order to modify the damping rods further...and then reassemble again!
This excellent article for converting the Suzuki Burgman http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation
lists several options for the number of drill holes and their diameter (Step 5 of his instructions). He went with a total of four 9mm holes but you could try other options such as two 10mm holes or four 8mm holes.
If someone out there understands flow-rate calculations then we might get a definitive answer, otherwise my advice would be to drill as few holes as you're comfortable with, as long as you accept that you may have to take it all apart again for any further modifications. I've Googled for damper rod failure as a result of emu conversions and can't find any hits, so I'm assuming if the drilling & hole spacing is done *correctly* it isn't an issue.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - 69oldskool - 22-08-13
Thanks for the reply Kebab, you've obviously researched thoroughly.
Not a major issue making some extra holes really, just wondered what if.... i didn't.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - kebab19 - 22-08-13
A good question, and you can be the first to try it out as I've already made Swiss cheese of my damper rods :lol As long as you're prepared to endure the potential joy of dismantling / reassembling the forks twice. Or thrice if two holes aren't enough & the standard compression circuit is still battering your arms / shoulders.
From the perspective of being able to return the forks back to standard, no additional holes would obviously be *a good thing*.
Then again, with emus costing around £35 and fork oil for £10, you'd only 'lose' £50 if you sold the bike on with them still fitted.
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - 69oldskool - 22-08-13
Ok i'll be Guinea Pig, as long as it doesn't turn into crash test dummy. :lol
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - Robbus - 22-08-13
I'm def interested at that price. Riding on the B Roads (and some A!) really highlight the crappiness of the front shocks. Would love to have you fit them but it appears your over a reasonable stretch of water so will have to rely on another mechanically competent type!
Cheers,
Rob
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - kebab19 - 22-08-13
Good to have you on board, Rob.
As long as you read up on the whole topic / subject there really isn't anything that a home mechanic with a half decent toolkit, vice, drill & angle grinder couldn't perform
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - Robbus - 23-08-13
Currently I'm falling at the first hurdle as I haven't got one of those thingies to get the front spindle undone, let alone something to hold the front end up
Need to start having a think about what to do spring wise too, is swapping springs at a later date easy enough? i.e. fork caps off, whip spacer and spring out and new one in, without having to remove the forks? It might be good to come up with a list of budget conscious alternative springs, I know Wemoto sell the Hagon progressives which are potentially better than stock but being progressive might compromise the good work the emulator is doing.
Think this is a good read on emulators for any that might not have found it:
http://www.fjmods.co.uk/emulators.htm
Cheers,
Rob
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - kebab19 - 23-08-13
Good article, sums things up well - damper rod forks are made on a tight manufacturer budget but can now be greatly improved on a tight owner's budget.
Do you know anyone who can help you out with paddocks stands etc? No Foccers nearby? Just get the weight off the front to disassemble the forks (but make sure the bike is secure). It would be best to swap springs while fitting the emulator, as they sit just under the bottom of the fork springs (and are held in place by the springs) but can of course be done at a later date.
You are right, Racetech prefer linear springs for easy tuning of the emulators, and they probably do work best, but plenty of people have either used progressive springs or just retained their standard springs. Even if they are not quite as good as a linear spring setup, ride comfort is still far superior to standard setup.
*HINT* other bikes with 41mm diameter forks often have springs with damping characteristics that are superior to the FZS600's and are suitable for swapping over. I have OEM VFR750 (994-1997) progressive springs in my own debrix-modded forks and haven't felt any need to acquire replacement linear springs.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/951757-progressive-springs-with-emulators/
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130606
http://www.johnnyrod.co.uk/sv650.html
Re: Debrix fork cartridge emulators - anyone up for a group buy? - 69oldskool - 23-08-13
(23-08-13, 09:20 AM)Robbus link Wrote: Currently I'm falling at the first hurdle as I haven't got one of those thingies to get the front spindle undone, let alone something to hold the front end up
Re front spindle:I think they're called spanners
nice & low tech on the 600.