Running Issues - Printable Version

Running Issues - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Running Issues (/showthread.php?tid=64063)

Running Issues - JoeRock - 22-06-13

Hey guys,

Had my FZS 600 about a week, and so far it's been spot on.
Went to take it out today though, and it definitely wasn't running right. It started as usual, but the tickover was rather unstable, Riding it to begin with was also not right, it wasn't revving right (similar to a water in the fuel symptoms for people that know what that feels like), but cleared after about 6k revs and started riding as normal. Carried on doing that for a couple of miles, and then it seemed to go back to normal.
Any suggestions as to what it could be? I'll be giving it a service at some point imminently anyway just for peace of mind more than anything, so will get new brake hoses and fluid, oil and oil filter change, air filter clean out and reoil (it's a K&N), carbs balanced etc (plus whatever else it says to do in the Haynes manual).

Re: Running Issues - red98 - 22-06-13

that sounds like plugs to me...if your going to give it a service add a set of spark plugs to your shopping list Smile

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 26-06-13

Well it's still going, waiting for a load of parts to arrive for a service but I am getting a bit concerned at what it's doing now!

It starts okay now, sometimes the idle is a bit lumpy (sounds almost as though a cylinder is occasionally misfiring), but occasionally it idles fine. Riding now though I'm pretty certain it's running on 2 or possibly 3 cylinders below almost bang on 5k revs (if I open the throttle hard below that point it kinda judders up to about then, before taking off as normal once it hits the higher revs! If I'm out on a fast ride then I don't notice it at all as I don't go below about 8k, and above 5k revs it runs spot on, but around town it's a nightmare as about 3/4k is where I tend to cruise along at, and it simply doesn't accelerate at those revs at the moment. No matter what gear I'm in, if I'm below that rev range and open the throttle, it kinda "judders" (that's when it feels like a couple of cylinders are dropping out), then when the revs eventually creep up to 5k it "coughs", and takes off as normal!
Now weirdly, it doesn't do it all the time, but it has basically been doing it for the last week or so to one extent or another pretty much every time I've ridden it.
It's also going along with a strange idle, when I bought the bike the idle was rock smooth, since developing this odd problem although at idle it's sometimes smooth, it's sometimes quite visibly up and down, often accompanied by again the sound as though the bike is occasionally missing a cylinder?

So, what would it be worth looking at? It is coming up to it's 30k service imminently so I'm basically going to (as soon as I've a Haynes manual and the parts) get the service done - will be doing oil and filters, changing the coolant, balancing the carbs etc. My initial thought is that it's probably not a carb balance or fuelling issue as I would have thought that would be a permanent problem, not like the one I'm having. I also don't think that the bike could've slipped so badly out of sync just in the couple of weeks that I've owned it?

Re: Running Issues - red98 - 27-06-13

get the service done and see what happens......sounds like eletrics to me,my monies still on plugs Wink

Re: Running Issues - Fazerider - 27-06-13

Trimming the end 8-10mm of the HT leads can often cure this sort of ailment. Over time the wire inside gets broken up and corroded where it screws into the plug cap, giving it some clean metal to contact makes a difference. The original plug caps can also develop flaws in the insulation... loads of people replace them with straight NGKs since the OEM ones are a stupid price.
If that and a service doesn't help, then it's possible you have some blocked jets in one or more of the carbs.

Re: Running Issues - darrsi - 27-06-13

Is your rev counter behaving itself? Is the needle moving about in places that it shouldn't?

Sorry Joe i've only just read your post properly but your description sounds extremely familiar to the TPS problem i just had!

I never had the lumpy idle, but did have the juddery/hesitant feeling at lower revs but it wasn't so bad if you gave the bike a bit of welly, but after i put the replacement TPS on i realised it actually wasn't smooth at higher revs at all.

Do a TPS diagnostic check, it only takes seconds to do

1) Switch the ignition on (just with the key, don't start the bike)
2) Gently unplug the TPS, the black plastic looking thing with the wire going into it, sitting on the right side of the carbs. You may need a flat screwdriver to unhook the connector, i actually did mine with a key!
3) Look at the rev counter, the needle should go from 3000rpm to 0rpm about every 3 seconds, which is indicating either total TPS failure, wiring failure, or it's simply unplugged.
4) After watching that procedure a few times just plug the wired connector back into the TPS.
5) You want the rev needle to go straight to the 5000rpm position.
If it goes to 0rpm or 10,000rpm the TPS needs adjusting.
And i presume if it goes to 3000rpm then the TPS itself is more than likely knackered.
I think 4000rpm is a speed sensor issue, but i doubt that's your problem here.
If it goes to 10,000rpm start the engine. If you turn the key off when the needle's at 10,000 then gravity will make it drop clockwise and it will then sit 'under' the stop pin. Unless you have the correct torx tool to hand, then you could adjust the TPS straight away.
Although it's easy to take the clocks apart, it can be avoided, as starting the engine should put the needle at the idle position, then you you can turn the engine off.
I found out the hard way........twice. :rolleyes
[size=1em]6) If it needs adjusting, you need a T25 torx driver, the one with the security pin hole in the centre.[/size]
[size=1em]7) When you've gone through the above procedure then undo the 2 screws on the TPS whilst the needle's at either 0rpm or 10Krpm, and just rotate it until you see the needle land on the 5000rpm position,then tighten the screws back up.[/size]
[size=1em]Note: The TPS should be adjusted at normal operating temperature, ie: when the bike's engine is warm and the revs are as close to about 1250rpm as you can get it.[/size]

[size=1em]If the TPS setting was out of spec, the adjustment should sort it out.[/size]
[size=1em]If the bike still doesn't feel like it's behaving, then a replacement TPS will sort things out. [/size]

[size=1em]Sorry if that all sounds a bit long winded, but i'm just trying to be thorough for you, and as i said the check itself will literally take seconds to do. [/size] Smile

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 30-06-13

Hey guys,

THanks for the suggestions. I rode home to visit my parents this weekend so haven't yet got new spark plugs in, the guy before me did say that they were replaced fairly recently so although I'm going to replace them anyway for peace of mind, they might not be the culprit.

Two things I'm going to start with trying today would be trimming the HT leads down and a TPS check. the plug leads (is the part that attaches to the spark plug the HT lead? I've only ever had stick coils before!) are currently off the bike so i'll do those first - how exactly do you trim them down? I can't see how to get them apart, and don't really want to pull something apart and break it!

Re: Running Issues - Lawrence - 30-06-13

The plug cap just unscrews off the end of the ht lead. Unscrew it, cut 10mm or so off the end of the ht lead and screw back together.

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 30-06-13

(30-06-13, 10:14 AM)Lawrence link Wrote: The plug cap just unscrews off the end of the ht lead. Unscrew it, cut 10mm or so off the end of the ht lead and screw back together.

Gotcha, ta mate. Job done. WIll just drain the carbs in case there's any water in them for some strange reason, and will then try firing her up. Out of interest, when checking the oil is it done on the centre stand or upright on the floor?

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 30-06-13

Well trimmed the HT leads and nothing, did a TPS check and it was 5k, so looks like no issues there.

Did though have a bit of a brainwave moment - checked the downpipes, and no3 was significantly slower in warming up than the others, the others were all roughly the same temp at the same time, but no3 was quite a bit cooler. Methinks therefore that the issue must lie somewhere with that cylinder, so as soon as the bike cools back down again I'm going to try swapping spark plugs to see if that moves the problem. if that doesn't move the problem, I'll try swapping the ht leads to see if that moves the problem. if that doesn't move the problem, then I think that I've only really got two possible suspects - either I've got something up with my carbs, or possibly the block connector thing that the ht lead comes out of (what's that called?) is a bit dead on that one cylinder!

Re: Running Issues - red98 - 30-06-13

yep that sounds good............the block that the ht lead comes out of is the coil.....provides a big spark to the spark plug,these are connected to the plugs in order (firing order).two coils on the fazer ,dont just swap the leads (sealed to coil) but you can swap the coils along with the wiring (in and out)....and then check downpipe temperature...just to see if one of the coils is at fault Smile

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 30-06-13

(30-06-13, 11:24 AM)red98 link Wrote: yep that sounds good............the block that the ht lead comes out of is the coil.....provides a big spark to the spark plug,these are connected to the plugs in order (firing order).two coils on the fazer ,dont just swap the leads (sealed to coil) but you can swap the coils along with the wiring (in and out)....and then check downpipe temperature...just to see if one of the coils is at fault

Well I need to wait for the bike to cool back down, but it appears that I may have a duff coil! Swapped the plugs from cylinder 1 and 3, turned it on and it made no difference, cylinder 3 was still noticably cooler than the rest. However what I hadn't noticed was that cylinder 4, whilst not cold, was still cooler than 1 and 2! Going to wait for the bike to cool and then I'll swap the coils and leads over to see if that makes a difference, but I suspect that I've probably got a duff coil! That being the case, rather than buy another one I'll probably just make a loom up to fit stick coils instead!

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 30-06-13

Annnnd it appears that a duff coil is not my problem, or probably not. Swapped the coils over, and if the coil had been duff then instead of cylinder being cold and 4 being a bit cooler, it should've been 2 being cold, and 1 being a bit cooler. Nothing changed, so it's not the coils. This leads me to the conclusion that it's probably got to be carb related, so going to whip them off (I say whip, they look pretty tightly packaged so i reckon this is going to be a PITA) and see what they look like!

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 30-06-13

Having just realised that I do not in fact have my toolkit, think this one is going to have to go to a mechanic unfortunately

Re: Running Issues - Frosties - 01-07-13

Sounds like the pilot jets are partially blocked. Try some STP carb cleaning jollup in the tank and overdose it.

Main jets open up around 5K which is why you won't see it when pining it!

Re: Running Issues - JoeRock - 01-07-13

(01-07-13, 01:26 PM)Frosties link Wrote: Sounds like the pilot jets are partially blocked. Try some STP carb cleaning jollup in the tank and overdose it.

Main jets open up around 5K which is why you won't see it when pining it!

Pretty certain you're right with that diagnosis fella, ran a load of carb cleaner through the bike for the last couple of days, and it's definitely helped a great deal. It's a bit fluffy now up to about 3k, but doesn't miss cylinders like it used to! THink I might try leaving it on my drive on the centre stand with the throttle held open a little bit, see if running a load of redexed up fuel through it helps matters further! If it doesn't, looks like I'll be learning how to strip a set of carbs down!

Re: Running Issues - darrsi - 01-07-13

STP Complete Fuel System Cleaner, half a bottle per full tank of fuel, good gear! Wink

Re: Running Issues - Frosties - 02-07-13

(01-07-13, 10:25 PM)JoeRock link Wrote: [quote author=Frosties link=topic=8442.msg84994#msg84994 date=1372681573]
Sounds like the pilot jets are partially blocked. Try some STP carb cleaning jollup in the tank and overdose it.

Main jets open up around 5K which is why you won't see it when pining it!