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+--- Thread: BREXIT (/showthread.php?tid=80202)
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Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
I often see Remainers say that the Brexiteers don't know what it was they were voting for. So, to be clear:
1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.
My question is, is there anyone here who doesn't want those three things for the UK, aside, obviously, from VNA, whose only concern is Scotland, and then only those Scots who agree with him?
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - Slaninar - 12-11-18
(12-11-18, 03:34 PM)Hedgetrimmer link Wrote: I often see Remainers say that the Brexiteers don't know what it was they were voting for. So, to be clear:During the 90s civil wars, my city of 200.000 got around as many refugees. Didn't like the change, even though those people speak the same language. However, the alternative was even worse - letting them die.
1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.
My question is, is there anyone here who doesn't want those three things for the UK, aside, obviously, from VNA, whose only concern is Scotland, and then only those Scots who agree with him?
Another example is a sysetms administrator in my country earns up to 1000 euros per month (that's considered a top pay). Without an EU passport, you can't apply for jobs in EU countries, UK, USA and Switzerland (especially) being very tricky. So the world is still a bit like the middle ages - depending on which family you're born into determines pretty much what you can "afford".
On the other hand, let 1.000.000 of my countrymen enter Switzerland and you no longer have Switzerland.
Hence, if you include ethics into making the decision, not just money, it's even harder to be objective and wise. It's all a mess, not black and white. Especially since I think the working class of all the world's countries is opressed by the big capital. Those who started the mess in the middle east are the real problem cause IMO, the real "enemy". People destroying rivers, forrests and other countries, killing people for profit... So whatever UK chooses, I expect it to get harder and harder to get by on an "average" wage from year to year.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 12-11-18
Quote: 1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world
I'll get none of things, because I didn't vote for this government. People forget that the EU is also a democracy, just a larger one. In fact my views and needs are better represented by the EU than the current UK government.
What do Remainers want
1: Be part of a trading block that has the size and power to match the rest of the world
2. Freedom of movement and opportunity for UK nationals throughout Europe
3. Continued peace in Europe
and so much more.....
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
(12-11-18, 06:41 PM)mtread link Wrote:
What do Remainers want
1: Be part of a trading block that has the size and power to match the rest of the world
My, that'll be a challenge! The rest of the world is a big place
Quote:2. Freedom of movement and opportunity for UK nationals throughout Europe
I'd prefer to live in a country that can provide for its own.
Quote:3. Continued peace in Europe
If that can't be done outside of the EU, then it probably can't be done. At the very least, you'd have to erase all national interests. As long as there are any differences, there will be conflict. So, one language, one culture, one religion, one centre of rule etc etc. The rise of nationalist movements throughout Europe illustrates that these things are unlikely to materialise. Unless you want to try to enforce them on everyone? More likely to cause war imo.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 12-11-18
Quote:1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.
Obviously to have an open free trade market across 28 countries you need to have common laws. These laws are generally made by consensus. I’m not aware of having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us. So what are the laws that you so strongly object to?
What we are talking about is free movement across the EU. So what exactly is the issue?
We already have trade deals across the globe as members of the EU. After BREXIT we will end up on WTO rules and will have no trade deals. The EU is our most important single market, and what we have decided to do is make it more difficult to trade with the EU. I have no idea why BREXITEERS think that the UK, which doesn’t have the clout of the EU, can negotiate better deals than the EU. Also, other countries around the globe will prioritise the EU over us – and of course the EU will always get a better deal and get it first.
Meanwhile where are we with BREXIT? Basically, running out of time. Though at least there is a new more realistic slogan is in town. Any deal is better than no deal. Though of course we are potentially about to tear up the best deal of all which is the one we have.
So with time fast running out……….. The government is looking increasingly unable to come to any agreed position. The DUP will bring down the government if there is a border between the UK and Northern Ireland. A border between NI and EIRE is not even worth thinking about. The government won’t call a general election as they would expect to loose it, but they will point to the fixed term act as a means to clinging to power despite not being able to actually govern.
With a government unable to come up with a deal. And even if they could, a parliament that is unlikely to accept any deal, the only way out of this mess may be to return to the people.
BREXIT is a nightmare.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
(12-11-18, 07:23 PM)VNA link Wrote:Quote:1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.
Obviously to have an open free trade market across 28 countries you need to have common TRADE laws.
FTFY.
Quote:the EU will get a better deal if/when all members finally get around to agreeing with each other, which can take years
FTFY
We were given a vote. The MAJORITY OF VOTERS chose Brexit. The politicians said they would implement the voters' will. In a democracy, that means the will of the MAJORITY.
I'm not against a further vote on the nature of the deal. But such a vote should not include the option of a rerun on the original question - in or out. We voted out. (Yes, yes, I know, Scotland didn't - so vote for Scottish Independence and stop messing about).
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - agricola - 12-11-18
Why the need for common laws to trade? We traded with Europe long before we joined the EU
Free movement across europe? Weve always had it before we joined the EU. I took several continental holidays in the late 60s, just had to show a passport, thats all.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 12-11-18
Quote:Why the need for common laws to trade? We traded with Europe long before we joined the EU
You can’t have a common market without common rules. It is not possible. Simple.
As I have pointed out numerous times, the EU is 28 countries with one single market place. What we had before was 28 sperate laws, 28 separate customs, 28 separate standards, and so on and so on. I have no idea why we would not want to be part of that.
And whatever sort of BREXIT we get, though my money has always been on article 50 eventually being binned, we will have to continue to abide with EU rules if we wish to tarde with them. But we will have no say or influence in those rules.
Quote:Free movement across europe? Weve always had it before we joined the EU. I took several continental holidays in the late 60s, just had to show a passport, thats all.You had no right to live, work or retire there. That’s what we have now.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 12-11-18
A referendum that should have never taken place. We are a representative democracy.
Nobody can agree what BREXIT is. So, nobody can implement what nobody can agree on.
As the only solution is to reject BREXIT. Any referendum has to offer the opportunity to ditch BREXIT.
The majority of people in the UK today clearly dont want BREXIT.
Lets get on with it, have a re-run. Job done. Back to normal.
Not to mention binning BREXIT means a stronger economy, a stronger pound, which means cheaper bikes.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
(12-11-18, 08:54 PM)VNA link Wrote: A referendum that should have never taken place.
In your opinion.
Quote: We are a representative democracy.
We won't be if Brexit is just ditched.
Quote:The majority of people in the UK today clearly dont want BREXIT.
Proof?
Lets not get on with a re-run. The job was done.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
(12-11-18, 08:45 PM)VNA link Wrote: You had no right to live, work or retire there. That’s what we have now.
Scotland not good enough for you, eh?
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 12-11-18
Quote: Why the need for common laws to trade? We traded with Europe long before we joined the EUYes it was called EFTA, based around a common Customs Area. It still exists and Theresa May has ruled us out of it. So yes we can trade with Europe, and pay duties, lose trade, close factories, have Customs controls, queue up with the lorries on the M20, create an Irish border etc etc etc
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 12-11-18
Quote: Free movement across europe? Weve always had it before we joined the EU. I took several continental holidays in the late 60s, just had to show a passport, thats all.Neither did you have free health care, included roaming charges, bike insurance cover etc etc
You had no right to live, work or retire there. That’s what we have now.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
Tbh, with all we're told we get from EU membership, and them apparently not getting a thing from us, it's a wonder they didn't actually kick us out :rollin
So they certainly won't let us back in :rollin :rollin
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - ogri48 - 12-11-18
Quite apart from my reasons for voting to leave, I think the EU is falling apart anyhoo, whatever mess we have to sort out now it will be worse for those in it when it collapses.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
But surely Germoney will pick up the tab for the gap we leave?
Oh no, I forgot...on balance they give us more than we give them. Why on earth would they have us back? This country has nothing to offer the world.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 12-11-18
Quote:So they certainly won't let us back in [img alt=:rollin]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rollin.gif[/img] [img alt=:rollin]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rollin.gif[/img]For them to let us back in, we would have to first leave.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - nick crisp - 12-11-18
4 months to go. If May's deal is voted against in Parliament, the clock is still ticking.
So why do you think the EU would want us to stay in? What's in it for them?
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - Grahamm - 13-11-18
(12-11-18, 10:10 AM)YamFazFan link Wrote: I had to do a double take to make sure, but he genuinely did wear a grey hoodie anorak with the hood hanging out and a red tie for the service of remembrance at The Cenotaph yesterday.
Ah, yes.
Meanwhile, behind him was Tony Blair who should have been investigated at The Hague for war crimes (let alone him having the gall to wear a poppy after sending our troops into Iraq) and beside him was Theresa May who sells British weapons to the Saudis who then use them to bomb buses full of Yemeni children...
But, no, it's Corbyn who is the problem.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - YamFazFan - 13-11-18
But if Jeremy Corbyn is a republican why would he join in with singing the national anthem?.
It's a perectly valid view to hold. Not everyone supports the monarchy.