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Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 14-01-19
Meanwhile I’m getting a little pissed off at people both admiring Theresa May and feeling sorry for her. Apparently, the majority of the house, if we are to believe the popular media, is doing everything it can to wreck her plans and give her a hard time for the sake of it.
So, lets look at the reality of the situation. She jumped at the chance of becoming PM, knowing full well it was a poisoned chalice. Though then again, you could argue she was making a sacrifice to save us from Boris Johnston or Jacob Rees Mogg, and as much as I dislike May, anything is better than Boris – surely?
Having become PM, it didn’t take her too long to realise the challenge she had accepted was simply impossible. With rebels in her ranks, her 12 seat majority was simply way too thin.
With Corbyn now at the helm of the Labour party, and with the popular media tearing him to shreds on a daily basis along with his less than confident performances in the house May saw a chance to solve all her problems. With absolute certainty that Corbyn’s Labour would be wiped out at the polls she called a snap general election and waited to see how massive her majority would be after polling day. With a massive majority she could easily negotiate a deal with the EU and vote it straight through parliament. But we all know what happened next.
So now with no majority, but having managed a confidence and supply deal with the DUP – basically she bought their support with our cash – May now found herself further isolated in terms of BREXIT.
So, what did May do now. Did she reach out to parliament? Did she consider putting together a cross party BREXIT committee or other consultative means to try and find a way to negotiate a deal that would satisfy the house. Nope. She fell back on a 1539 law that allowed the Tudor Monarch to govern by proclamation. May intended to bypass parliament and in doing so our whole democratic process in order to dictate BREXIT.
So, she’s made her bed, and now she has to lie in it. I do not feel sorry for her one wee bit.
I may to some degree admire her strength and determination, but that strength and determination is also her greatest weakness. She is a woman incapable of team work, a woman who cannot build bridges, seek consensus or compromise. She was in fact always the wrong person for the job, and even in the best of times would struggle to operate as a successful PM.
This is May’s catastrophe. And having endured an incompetent PM for the last couple of years or so parliament is left with the responsibility to clean up her mess.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - Flooky - 14-01-19
(14-01-19, 02:16 PM)VNA link Wrote:Quote:just because the result doesn't suit doesn't mean its to be ignored. We should all hope this goes through cos if it doesn't its the sort of thing that causes massive unrest.
Flooky. I don’t think we should ever loose sight of why this referendum occurred. It was offered to the country by the Tory party as a means to unite it’s MP’s in order to win an election. They decided to gamble our membership of the EU in order to win an election. They won the election, but gamble has exploded.
You say you hope this goes through. But then what exactly is going to go through? With just a few weeks to go nobody yet knows what BREXIT is.
Again,you say we should all hope this goes through, whatever that is. But do you really think people in Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted to REMAIN all want this to go through?
Why we had the vote is immaterial, it happened, it was democratic and it was close but it must be honoured, what Scotland and northern Island think is also not a valid reason to not honour the vote. It is a different argument whether they should have their own say or not, as it stands the UK voted to leave the EU. If it doesn't happen a massive change in our way of life has occurred. Leaving the EU will be bumpy , but we and they will get over it. A government ignoring the will of the people we will not get over. I love bikes which is why I am on this forum so I will leave politics alone now, If I don't reply any more I am not being rude, just wanna read about bikes. xx
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 14-01-19
Flooky, how we came to have this referendum is of course important. It was offered with no thought given, whatsoever, to the consequences should the UK as a whole vote to leave the EU. It was reckless behaviour on the part of the Tory party in order to win an election.
Quote:what Scotland and northern Island think is also not a valid reason to not honour the voteIndeed, and that is how a great many of us feel in Scotland and Northern Ireland. As you say we don’t count, our view and our future is of no interest to Tory politicians at Westminster. Democracy is for the English, not the Scots or Irish.
Quote:Leaving the EU will be bumpy , but we and they will get over it.Indeed it will. Whatever leaving actually means - and indeed if we ever do. It will not effect those who offered us the referendum, putting party before country in doing so, nor will it effect those negotiating the deal – that if, again, there ever is a deal. However, if we leave it will be ordinary punters like you and I that pay the price.
Even as things stand the UK is heading for a recession, BREXIT or no BREXIT. Businesses are spending millions on contingency plans to avoid the chaos of a no deal – money that could be invested in their companies. Inward investment has ground to a halt and day after day businesses announce job losses as the economic consequences if this whole mess continue to bite. Retail spending is falling as people loose confidence in our future.
Quote:I love bikes which is why I am on this forum so I will leave politics alone now, If I don't reply any more I am not being rude, just wanna read about bikes. Xx
Can’t argue with that Flooky. :kiss :eek
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - steve 10562cc - 14-01-19
If democracy was only for the English we would have been given a referendum for an independent England. The same as the Scottish people had in which the majority of you voted against independence
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 14-01-19
Quote:If democracy was only for the English we would have been given a referendum for an independent England.That rather makes my point. People were not screaming out for a referendum on the EU. You are right to suggest it was given to us, as indeed it was.
However, one would expect to ask for a referendum, as opposed to be given something that was never requested.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - YamFazFan - 14-01-19
(14-01-19, 10:13 PM)VNA link Wrote: People were not screaming out for a referendum on the EU.
I was.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - ogri48 - 14-01-19
(14-01-19, 11:10 PM)YamFazFan link Wrote: [quote author=VNA link=topic=24678.msg290611#msg290611 date=1547500434]
People were not screaming out for a referendum on the EU.
I was.
[/quote]
ditto. I think the one thing that has come out of this thread is that nobody has changed their minds. leavers still want out. remainers still want in. it doesn't matter about facts or figures on either side. I'll never change my mind, and nor will remainers. I think the remain camp will win, and I will see the death of democracy in the uk in my lifetime. That will be a very sad day.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 14-01-19
Quote:
People were not screaming out for a referendum on the EU.
I was.
Would be interested to know what you did to try get a referendum.
While there were many people campaigning for a referendum, it wasn’t exactly a mass movement. For those who cared in the general population few got past having a moan about it over a pint in the pub.
Indeed polls showed that most people had far more pressing concerns than leaving the EU.
2011 Channel 4 news fact check - https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-do-people-care-for-an-eu-referendum
Quote:The verdictSo, yup it always was, and always will be about the Tory party.
When pushed, 67 per cent of those polled by YouGov last month said they would rather have a referendum on Britain’s EU membership than not.
But they had to be pushed – because actually, they don’t really care. Take a closer look at the latest polls, and what you see is that a massive 97 per cent don’t consider the EU a big issue right now.
Quote:it doesn't matter about facts or figures on either side.For me that’s what always counts. I am certainly not in Michael Gove’s camp “I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts”
When the vast majority of economists are in agreement, and they are all stating clearly that leaving the EU will have a major negative impact on our economy, well I tend to pay attention.
Not to mention that 60 odd pages in, the foc u BREXITEERS, still really don’t have a clue why they want to leave – they just want to leave. :eek
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 15-01-19
Woman seriously considers ringing in sick tomorrow
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 15-01-19
Quote:I think the remain camp will win,For what it's worth Ogri, I think we've all already lost.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - YamFazFan - 15-01-19
(14-01-19, 11:54 PM)VNA link Wrote:Quote:
People were not screaming out for a referendum on the EU.
I was.
Would be interested to know what you did to try get a referendum.
I bet you would
. I'm not telling you. You're just after tips on how to force a second one
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - steve 10562cc - 15-01-19
I don't like to agree with VNA but I agree on his last post. The whole British people have lost democracy, parliament was given an instruction by the people, whether it was the right instruction is open to debate what ever happens whether we stay in or leave we will only ever be able to speculate what might have been if we had gone the other way. Parliament has chosen to ignore the will of the people they are supposed to represent and engineer a way to get what they want in stead of preparing the country to carry out the will of the people. Our last civil war was between the people and a dictator king, lets hope the next one is not between Parliament and the people.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 15-01-19
Quote:I don't like to agree with VNA but I agree on his last post. The whole British people have lost democracy, parliament was given an instruction by the people, whether it was the right instruction is open to debate what ever happens whether we stay in or leave we will only ever be able to speculate what might have been if we had gone the other way. Parliament has chosen to ignore the will of the people they are supposed to represent and engineer a way to get what they want in stead of preparing the country to carry out the will of the people. Our last civil war was between the people and a dictator king, lets hope the next one is not between Parliament and the people.I totally disagree with you Steve. :lol
We have an economy that should be fully recovered from the financial crises of ten years ago, an economy that should right now be in rude health, but the signs are that the UK is heading for recession, and that is no matter what happens today or at the end of the day with BREXIT. BREXIT has strangled our economy, it’s also sucked all the political energy out of this country. There are major issues that need to be addressed, first and foremost our economy which is stalling, austerity, pay and conditions, our NHS, our tax regime etc etc. None of these issues is getting the attention they deserve because of BREXIT. That is what I mean when I say we are all losers in this.
Aside from this being a situation that should never have been allowed to occur, and that frankly few were particularly interested in a few years ago, well as the referendum did take place and considering the results – well whose mess is this?
This as I stated clearly in my post #1520 is Theresa May’s mess. She’s behaved as if she alone should decide, literally tried to dictate and as a result has lost the house.
So, thank goodness that democracy appears to be alive and well at Westminster. Or, at least we will find out today. Parliament needs to vote this wretched deal down and take back control.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - johnakay - 15-01-19
https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49947237_2279789148698264_2068036665808519168_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeEmZ2WDyFHJcjSwGCciCsvlVGBNMur35ashK7516xKwibMnkOEsE3vJTBDGTO7P5p4A-v7r5ZEviB9V4rGzZMgfvMaE2utO7v-oRtY2f1WoLw&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=52a596943653a48052bebdfb6c71e161&oe=5CC84B52
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - YamFazFan - 15-01-19
(10-01-19, 01:54 AM)mtread link Wrote: Waiting for the 700,000 Leave supporters to protest in Trafalgar Square....
If Leave get cheated out of Brexit I comfortably predict you could quadruple that figure
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 15-01-19
Hang on a minute.
May is trying to deliver what the people voted for.
Corbyn has said he'll deliver what the people voted for.
What's the problem?
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - YamFazFan - 15-01-19
We'll find out around 9pm this evening....
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 15-01-19
Possibly....
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 15-01-19
Quote:Hang on a minute.
May is trying to deliver what the people voted for.
Corbyn has said he'll deliver what the people voted for.
What's the problem?
Well with both the government and the opposition trying to deliver the same thing. Well what could possibly go wrong?
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 15-01-19
Boris Johnson's version of what people voted for :lol
Noticed in the news just now that Hillary Benn's motion against 'No Deal' has been withdrawn so that the government can't postpone the vote again. Blimey this is getting complicated :lurk