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Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
Quote: Sorry I'll get my coat [/size]
A Mackintosh no doubt
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - ogri48 - 18-12-18
ok.
its an emotive issue on both sides, so lets try and take that out of it.
lets assume my reason for leaving isn't valid, along with whatever every other leavers reason was.
lets assume mt tread and vna are right to say because remain had a certainty to it that leave didn't, we should have abandoned what we really wanted to do, and voted to stay in a corrupt (just in our view obviously) system, ruled by people we didn't vote for, who gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in.
And that instead of "dying on our feet rather than living on our knees" (again just our opinions obviously), we should have stayed on our knees.
Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.
On Nov 10th, 2015, David Cameron, the leader of the governing party said this.
"this is a huge decision for our country., perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.And it will be the final decision...When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation, and another referendum"
Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.
And now, whether remainers like it or not, when they talk about about wanting another referendum, or "more democracy", they are fundamentally lying, they want less democracy, not more. How can you possibly argue against that? And if the government now went aginst that, how could we ever trust politicians again, or indeed ever call ourselves a democratic country.
The very nature of democracy is that "you do not confuse your own personal prejudices with divine wisdom, and if you lose, you accept your defeat with good grace"
So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats all
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - Flooky - 18-12-18
That is exactly it for me, win lose or draw we shouls all respect the result..ignore it at our peril (whayever our feeling )
(18-12-18, 02:00 PM)ogri48 link Wrote: ok.
its an emotive issue on both sides, so lets try and take that out of it.
lets assume my reason for leaving isn't valid, along with whatever every other leavers reason was.
lets assume mt tread and vna are right to say because remain had a certainty to it that leave didn't, we should have abandoned what we really wanted to do, and voted to stay in a corrupt (just in our view obviously) system, ruled by people we didn't vote for, who gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in.
And that instead of "dying on our feet rather than living on our knees" (again just our opinions obviously), we should have stayed on our knees.
Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.
On Nov 10th, 2015, David Cameron, the leader of the governing party said this.
"this is a huge decision for our country., perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.And it will be the final decision...When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation, and another referendum"
Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.
And now, whether remainers like it or not, when they talk about about wanting another referendum, or "more democracy", they are fundamentally lying, they want less democracy, not more. How can you possibly argue against that? And if the government now went aginst that, how could we ever trust politicians again, or indeed ever call ourselves a democratic country.
The very nature of democracy is that "you do not confuse your own personal prejudices with divine wisdom, and if you lose, you accept your defeat with good grace"
So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats all
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
Quote: Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.Nobody ever called Brexiteers impudent or racist. The only person I've called racist is Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and I stand by that 100%.
Yes I'm a democrat, so much so that I believe people can change their minds, as they do every 5 years when we elect new MPs that form a new government. The electorate today would not be the same electorate as 2016.
The last referendum was tainted with lies, illegal foreign money and did not make clear what would come after a Leave result.
As to Cameron, do you really believe what politicians say? He was convinced he was going to win.
What is important now is to get us out of this stalemate. May's method is to delay to the brink so her deal becomes the only viable option left.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - Flooky - 18-12-18
cant even type now ! but you know what I mean, non of us want to feel that our opinions are ignored..I think if it doesn't go ahead it will kick off..big style.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
Whatever happens, a large proportion of the population will be ignored. That's the trouble with referendums. That's why we elect governments to decide for us.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - fazersharp - 18-12-18
Well said ogri.When it is thrown upon leavers "you didn't all vote for the same version of leave" I wonder how many remain voters actually fully agree with the whole EU concept, I think they all want different versions of an EU. I dont think any of them agree that the EU is perfect. How many want an EU army how many want to join the euro how many want ever increasing political integration and ever more laws being drawn up by the EU.
Remainers talk about leavers being deluded but leavers are not deluded they can see and understand with perfect clarity what the remainers cannot, which is the EU will not change their course it will forever keep marching on with the EU project, they think that by being in it they can influence it which is the most deluded concept of all.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - fazersharp - 18-12-18
(18-12-18, 02:21 PM)mtread link Wrote::eek Yes you have most definitely called leavers racistQuote: Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.Nobody ever called Brexiteers impudent or racist.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
Quote: I dont think any of them agree that the EU is perfect. How many want an EU army how many want to join the euro how many want ever increasing political integration and ever more laws being drawn up by the EU.No the EU isn't perfect. All those examples you've given either haven't happened or we have opted out of.
Quote: Yes you have most definitely called leavers racist
Where?
What concerns me is that the only ones threatening violence on the streets if they don't get what they want, are Leavers :eek
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - fazersharp - 18-12-18
(18-12-18, 03:52 PM)mtread link Wrote:Right here Brexit specs in these you postedQuote:[size=1em]Yes you have most definitely called leavers racist [/size][size=1em]Where? [/size]
Brexit specs excludes brown hues. Berxiteer bingo, muslamic ray guns,immigrants,Im not a racist -but, they dont speak English,
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - fazersharp - 18-12-18
(18-12-18, 03:52 PM)mtread link Wrote:The EU direction is clear and has been stated so as a goal. If the referendum is overturned and we end up staying in how much longer after that do you think we will still be able to "opt out" of elements, by staying in the whole EU project will be re- energised and accelerated so those bits you say are not perfect will only get worse.Quote:[size=1em] I dont think any of them agree that the EU is perfect. How many want an EU army how many want to join the euro how many want ever increasing political integration and ever more laws being drawn up by the EU. [/size][size=1em]No the EU isn't perfect. All those examples you've given either haven't happened or we have opted out of.[/size]
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
Not me. Someone else created those. I just found them on Facebook and posted the images :lol
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
Quote: The EU direction is clear and has been stated so as a goal. If the referendum is overturned and we end up staying in how much longer after that do you think we will still be able to "opt out" of elements, by staying in the whole EU project will be re- energised and accelerated so those bits you say are not perfect will only get worse.I think that's an exaggeration. The EU army is a proposal made by some member states, not a goal. All 27 states would have to agree.
So, according to your last statement we should have voted Remain to consolidate our opt out rights? Anyway, if we rescind Article 50, technically we won't have left at all. There is no clamour for anybody to join the Euro. They've has their fingers burnt with Greece and Ireland.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - fazersharp - 18-12-18
(18-12-18, 04:48 PM)mtread link Wrote: Not me. Someone else created those. I just found them on Facebook and posted the images :lolI am sure that are lots of people in solitary confinement who would of loved to be able to use that excuse in their defence
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
.... and I'm sure there have been lots of people wrongly locked up because of the actions of others....
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
So the latest, May pretends to be looking at a No Deal result, and Rees-Mogg supports May.
It's all about saving the Tories
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 18-12-18
Quote:ok.
its an emotive issue on both sides, so lets try and take that out of it.
lets assume my reason for leaving isn't valid, along with whatever every other leavers reason was.
lets assume mt tread and vna are right to say because remain had a certainty to it that leave didn't, we should have abandoned what we really wanted to do, and voted to stay in a corrupt (just in our view obviously) system, ruled by people we didn't vote for, who gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in.
And that instead of "dying on our feet rather than living on our knees" (again just our opinions obviously), we should have stayed on our knees.
Dear oh dear Ogri.
I think we have already in this thread established that the EU is actually a democratic union.
Rhetoric is all well and good. But 40 odd pages in and we are still hearing off the EU “gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in” yet so far when pressed the foc u BREXITEERS have come up with;
Daylight running lights
Graded bananas
Oh and lets not forget Dazza’a great grandfather.
Quote:Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.Stephen Yaxley Lennon rightly got called out as a fascist and racist. Indeed Nigel Farage tore up his UKIP membership card in disgust at his appointment.
Quote:Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.Yup in order to kill UKIP and win and election he gambled on our EU membership – membership that he himself believes is of great importance to our union. What an ass.
Quote:So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats allFirstly, I don’t believe we should allow the Tory party to wreck this nation.
Secondly, I don’t believe people voted for unemployment and more food banks.
Thirdly – two countries in this union voted to REMAIN. My country voted decisively to REMAIN, I fully expect the Scottish Parliament and our representatives at Westminster to fight to REMAIN in the EU. If you believe in democracy you’ll understand and respect that.
Fourthly – BREXIT was not defined in the referendum. Yes the race card was played, the central message of being 350 million a week better off was a blatant lie and illegal foreign money was used in the campaign.
So aye some off us are mighty pissed off at this English Tory mess. Right now the UK is adrift at sea with nobody at the helm.
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - VNA - 18-12-18
It must time fae another funny :lol
![[Image: DupnzUxWwAA7JTI.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DupnzUxWwAA7JTI.jpg)
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - mtread - 18-12-18
Perhaps the No Deal Brexiteers could answer these simple questions :
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread - YamFazFan - 18-12-18
(18-12-18, 02:00 PM)ogri48 link Wrote: On Nov 10th, 2015, David Cameron, the leader of the governing party said this.
"this is a huge decision for our country., perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.And it will be the final decision...When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation, and another referendum"
Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.
And now, whether remainers like it or not, when they talk about about wanting another referendum, or "more democracy", they are fundamentally lying, they want less democracy, not more. How can you possibly argue against that? And if the government now went aginst that, how could we ever trust politicians again, or indeed ever call ourselves a democratic country.
The very nature of democracy is that "you do not confuse your own personal prejudices with divine wisdom, and if you lose, you accept your defeat with good grace"
So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats all
Brilliant post. My thoughts entirely.