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+--- Thread: Braking (/showthread.php?tid=74106)
Re: Braking - nick crisp - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 06:46 AM)darrsi link Wrote: i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.
I can't remember what I was taught in the dim mists of time :lol
On the other hand, I also don't recall being taught technique for 'spirited' riding, or for that matter, how to deal with rough/loose surfaces etc. Different situations may call for different approaches to braking. Learn or crash.....ahem :rollin
Re: Braking - unfazed - 22-10-15
Brakes only stop the wheels, :eek it is how the rider applies that knowledge that stops the bike
Re: Braking - His Dudeness - 22-10-15
I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.
Re: Braking - andybesy - 22-10-15
The other thing about engine braking is because it happens at a steady rate it encourages planning ahead. You're watching what's going on ahead and coming off the throttle early and simply rolling down the gears so you slow in time for the junction or hazard ahead. The brakes are just for fine-tuning as you slow, and then brining yourself to a final stop should you need to.
I try to use them 80/20 as I was taught, but as soon as I'm unsure of grip then it's 50/50 or not at all, and just using planning and engine braking.
This of course is all day to day riding. I guess if you're in a race and approaching a corner then you want to be going faster for longer and in that case brakes are your friend, but this is not the type of riding that fills my days.
Andy
Re: Braking - Fazerider - 22-10-15
I use the rear (in combination with the front) in the wet, but its main use for me is in corners. Applying a slight drag, not significant in terms of actual braking force, just enough to keep the drivetrain loaded, makes for a much smoother transition between slowing down and accelerating.
Re: Braking - fazersharp - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 09:24 AM)His Dudeness link Wrote: I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.:agree also along with some throttle blip sometimes, clutch in, change down, blip throttle, new gear two fingers on the brake at the same time and a bit of back brake too. (i used to play the drums!)
Re: Braking - darrsi - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 10:54 AM)fazersharp link Wrote: [quote author=His Dudeness link=topic=18540.msg213835#msg213835 date=1445502261]:agree also along with some throttle blip sometimes, clutch in, change down, blip throttle, new gear two fingers on the brake at the same time and a bit of back brake too. (i used to play the drums!)
I'm going to stick with mostly front and a bit of rear and down a gear or two. It slows you down smoothly, quickly and you're in the right gear and at the right rpm ready to go when it's time. As for gearboxes are most expensive than brake pads, you're on throttle way more than you're on the brakes and on throttle the engine is taking the force of the combustion process so any major wear that happens is going to happen on throttle. I seriously doubt there's a significant amount of wear created by engine breaking compared to on the throttle.
[/quote]
I think I know that tune. :guitar
Re: Braking - Ebme Geek - 22-10-15
There's another question,
Which fingers do you use and how many ?
Depends on how wet it is :b
Like balance and method, do what feels good :lol
Re: Braking - mickvp - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 12:18 PM)Ebme Geek link Wrote: Which fingers do you use and how many ?
Depends on how wet she is :b
Fixed that for you :rollin
Re: Braking - sinto607276 - 22-10-15
I use whatever brakes I need at the time.
Could be front and back together.
Or just the front, or just the back.
It all depends when you need to use them and what situation your in.
As long as they stop you in time :b
So I voted for front and rear
Re: Braking - sinto607276 - 22-10-15
(21-10-15, 09:58 PM)unfazed link Wrote: I have noticed that the "older and wiser" riders seem to be more inclined to use both brakes more often :lolYou don't need to be old to be wiser! But it does help I guess :b
Re: Braking - fazersharp - 22-10-15
Ive got another one to add -------------Air Brakes, going from a smaller hunker down forward posture to an upright taller one
Re: Braking - Dave48 - 22-10-15
I thank all those who answered my earlier question re use of rear brake having a loading effect on front.
In the final analysis it seems that the answer to the the original posters question would be "It all depends on the circumstances prevailing".
Knew an advanced instructor years ago and this was his stock answer to trainee driving instructors who were looking for a "hard & fast" answer to questions of driving technique etc. For most who survived the initial stages the penny would eventually drop-the instructor was trying to get trainees to THINK about what they were doing & to take in all available information on which to base their decisions :lol
Re: Braking - sinto607276 - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 05:32 PM)Dave48 link Wrote: I thank all those who answered my earlier question re use of rear brake having a loading effect on front.Your exactly right, there are very few hard and fast rules about how you ride, it's totally defended on the circumstances your in at the time and as you've stated, what information you take in and use.
In the final analysis it seems that the answer to the the original posters question would be "It all depends on the circumstances prevailing".
Knew an advanced instructor years ago and this was his stock answer to trainee driving instructors who were looking for a "hard & fast" answer to questions of driving technique etc. For most who survived the initial stages the penny would eventually drop-the instructor was trying to get trainees to THINK about what they were doing & to take in all available information on which to base their decisions :lol
Re: Braking - Grahamm - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 12:53 AM)Val link Wrote: I do not see any problem to slow down gradually with the engine, even more aggresive slow down would be fine the final drive and the engine has been designed for that, there is no difference on the engine/gear forces you apply when accelerate or brake with the engine does it?
The drive train is designed to propel the bike forward by turning the rear wheel, not having the rear wheel turn the engine with the forces working in the opposite direction.
Quote:IPSGAG? Seriously Grahamm no offence, but you do not expect us to remember all this when riding do you :lol
Why not? There are a lot of bikers who know The System and you're probably actually doing it without even knowing it.
When you're riding you are (or should be!) constantly observing ahead, to the sides, in your mirrors etc for other traffic, hazards and so on, yes? That's Information.
When you're approaching a hazard such as a bend or junction or other vehicles, you might think "where should I be that's safest?" That's Position.
You probably slow down for the hazard, ie Speed.
You may change down a gear (or two or three) to get better power response if you need to manoeuvre. That's Gears.
Then, once you've navigated the hazard, you increase your speed back to whatever is appropriate for the conditions. Acceleration.
All that IPSGA does is formalise what you're most likely doing anyway.
Quote:And in my opinion is much more fun to slow down after you change gear down how else you can do the sweet screaming banshee sound of the Fazer?? Advanced riding is boring - here I've said it :rollin :rollin
Your bike, your life, your choice.
Re: Braking - sinto607276 - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 12:26 PM)mickvp link Wrote: [quote author=Ebme Geek link=topic=18540.msg213847#msg213847 date=1445512701]
Which fingers do you use and how many ?
Depends on how wet she is :b
Fixed that for you :rollin
[/quote]
Foccin hilarious mickvp, brilliant piece of detective work there :rollin :rollin
Re: Braking - joebloggs - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 06:46 AM)darrsi link Wrote: [quote author=mr self destruct link=topic=18540.msg213829#msg213829 date=1445491939]
This all makes for interesting reading coming from a newbie's perspective (I wouldn't even call myself competent yet let alone advanced!).
So all you more experienced folks who use a bit of rear, is this a taught advanced technique or is it what over the years you've found works?
The reason I ask is at no point was I ever taught to use my back brake for slowing down from any moderate speed (30+). I did however, use my rear on my GS125 as that was where the only brake light switch was.
In both my CBT and DAS, I was told to progressively bring in the front when slowing down, gently at first to load the front wheel and increase grip (much the same I suppose as using the rear brake).
I was taught to avoid the rear as the weight gets thrown to the front and the rear is more prone to locking up.
Now, considering the forces stated in previous posts, am I right in thinking that where the braking force is applied (front or rear) has an effect on the centre of the sum of forces?
i.e. if the back brake is applied, the centre of the force is on the back wheel, forcing the front into the road. Conversely if the front is applied, the centre of force is on the front wheel, effectively trying to lift the rear.
As Celticdog said earlier, i was taught and still use about 80% front & 20% rear, then 50/50 gentler braking in wet.
You must remember if you use the road properly with your wits about you, and even more importantly have decent trustworthy tyres that you have a lot of faith in and are always in good nick, then braking can change altogether as well.
If you're one of these people that chances tyres down to being illegal, or rides a few inches behind a low loader lorry, then more fool you when it rains.
Just to put a spanner in the works, this is how the Dutch do emergency stops, which i simply couldn't do as described, especially in the wet, but bear in mind they're probably stoned as well so couldn't give a shit anyway.
mokin Joe Bloggs, are you Dutch perchance? :lol
http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/braking/
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Nothing wrong with being stoned while riding, apparently, although go steady on the LSD ahem........
For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike. I believe that once get to a certain level of experience your bike almost feels like an extra limb, part of your body and your inputs are translated into motion. Some may criticize for someone else's use of brakes, steering, gearchanging etc but when you get the feel for your machine I think its totally up to you on how you ride. I Personally have a great feeling for the front end, have saved several front end slides in wet and dry and when it comes to braking its as if I'm holding the wheel by the spindle.
Trial braking hasn't been mentioned and I'm a fan of it, why not, it quickens the steering and providing you don't expect the tyre to take maximum brake at maximum lean its safe enough. Would go as far as saying it should be taught as it shows the rider the input required to counter the forces that will try to stand the bike up. And if you get caught out (shut up mr advanced rider) you can brake while leaning over and apex later.
I've done some stupid speeds and some crazy things but I have never once stopped thinking and learning
Re: Braking - sinto607276 - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 08:35 PM)joebloggs link Wrote: I have never once stopped thinking and learningOnce you do that, you'd best be hanging up your keys :b
Re: Braking - fazersharp - 22-10-15
Quote:For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.:agree
I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it
Re: Braking - Frosties - 22-10-15
(22-10-15, 10:17 PM)fazersharp link Wrote:Quote:For the newbies I guess you go with what you were taught and gradually modify your style to suit, not only in braking but in the way you control your bike.:agree
I dont ever remember being taught anything back in the 80s but What I have found after years of riding is that I will read something about say- counter steering and then go out on my bike thinking about what I have read and then think - shit that's what I always do and I never knew it was a "thing" and had a name. Same with positioning I never knew that what I was doing all the time without thinking was a technique in some book, same go's for all the braking technique, I didnt know that trailing the back brake in certain situations was a "thing" I thought everyone did it
It's got to be hard being perfect...... :lol