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+--- Thread: Scottish independence (/showthread.php?tid=68049)
Re: Scottish independence - Hiswitsend - 05-04-14
Except Scotland isn't a region of England...it is a country in its own right...
Think of what was the USSR rather than just Russia and you are closer.
Other regions of England are simply that and while they are suffering a similar neglect due to the concentration of population and business around London, their situation is quite different.
Although I think Doncaster is officially Scottish...
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/doncaster--is-part-of-scotland--after-900-year-old-administrative-error-comes-to-light.html#05olkzh
Re: Scottish independence - VNA - 05-04-14
Quote:There's an interesting parallel here. Crimea is a region within the state of Ukraine. Crimea recently had a referendum on whether it wanted to remain part of the Ukraine or become part of Russia. The result was, allegedly, that a resounding majority wanted to become part of Russia. Now the EU, NATO, UN and various other acronyms have all stated that the referendum is illegal as it would have needed to be a referendum over all of the independent state of Ukraine and not just the region of Crimea.
There is no parallel. The Crimean referendum followed an uprising within Crimea (obviously there were other major events in Ukraine that preceded this) along with invading Russian militias and armed forces. It was held at two days notice and many communities within Crimea refused to take part. In short, over the period of a few days Russia annexed Crimea. You could call it a referendum at gun point.
And all that may have been part of the price that the west has to pay for ignoring Russia on the international stage, and considering it to a spent force. Putin has a number of reasons for taking this action, one of them is sending a message to the west. The spent force has made the west look impotent.
Scotland as Hiswitsend points out is not a region of England, it's a country and is currently part of a union called the United Kingdom. We have a devolved parliament and a democratic process. In the SNP manifesto before the last Scottish election was a pledge to hold a referendum on full Independence. The SNP achieved the impossible - a majority in a coalition parliament. Hence we now have a referendum.
Of course we do not have the right to hold a binding referendum on Independence. Westminster initially refused to recognise any such referendum. But it was clear that Scotland was going to hold a consultative referendum anyway. So Westminster - umm hang on a minute........;
Remember that name - Jose Manuel Barroso? You know.......
Quote:Jose Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, said it would be “very difficult, if not impossible” for Scotland to get the agreement of all EU states to join the bloc.
That name that your English press and the BBC love to keep quoting and referring to his statements on Scotland joining the EU (seemingly forgetting that we are already EU members), well he is refusing Catalonia the very type of referendum that we are holding in Scotland. Get it? But the popular press keep quoting him despite his lack of credibility on the issue and crystal clear agenda. And of course they think that Scots won't notice this.
If there is a YES vote, it will be down to the failure of the 'Better Together' campaign. It is theirs to loose, and bit by bit they appear to be loosing it. eg. Not having the balls to be honest about the EU and the pound. Yet again Scotland is being lied to.
Re: Scottish independence - nick crisp - 05-04-14
Angela Merkel has also hinted that perhaps Germany doesn't think that Scottish independance is a great idea, saying that Europe wishes for a strong UK within Europe, to aid with Europe's bargaining/negotiating powers with the US and other leading world economies. It seems to me that both Scotland and the UK as it then would be, would be weaker for this move. Other than that, Europe seems strangely quiet on the subject.
I dunno, maybe it would be better for the Scots. But they are not the only ones disillusioned with the direction our Westminster rabble are taking us, or how they behave generally. Maybe I should declare for independance - I'll take a quick referendum - yes, it's unanimous, Nick Crisp has voted to be independant and run his own affairs!
One would hope that if Scotland does go independant, the emotionally charged extremists would be sidelined and more sensible heads would agree to work closely with the UK on various matters.
Re: Scottish independence - VNA - 05-04-14
Quote:Angela Merkel has also hinted that perhaps Germany doesn't think that Scottish independance is a great idea, saying that Europe wishes for a strong UK within Europe, to aid with Europe's bargaining/negotiating powers with the US and other leading world economies.
Obviously she's gonna say something moderately supportive of the UK, that at the same time is not going upset Scotland. Politics.
Quote:One would hope that if Scotland does go independant, the emotionally charged extremists would be sidelined and more sensible heads would agree to work closely with the UK on various matters.
Indeed , come a yes vote the extremists at Westminster are going to have to have a rethink. The bullying lies and intimidation having failed, well they will have to grasp the reality of the situation and start becoming more practicable and reasonable. Well one would hope so - but will they?
Re: Scottish independence - nick crisp - 05-04-14
The independance lobby has plenty of it's own extremists, and well you know that I meant to include those in that statement. But yes, lets hope for more level heads on both sides. This constant slagging of Westminster, or of The Scottish parliament, or whoever, won't help matters at the end of the day. Why not just concentrate on the practicalities of the thing? If the Scottish majority really wish for this, then they'll probably get it. Better to focus on how to make it work than just keep stirring up bad feeling (although obviously that's part of the independance movement's way of persuading the Scots to vote yes :rolleyes ).
One question does stay in my mind though - is there not any way that Scotland could work for greater independance within the UK, perhaps some way of keeping the more powerful position we'd all have with the UK as a union, but allowing Scotland to run itself as the people wish? I know you will say (VNA) no cos Westminster will constantly meddle etc, but maybe it could work with a bit more thinking outside the box? Obviously, it would mean for both sides to drop many preconceptions and be prepared for quite large scale change nevertheless, but.....? Is there any precedent of such a thing working? Or could a workable precedent be set?
Re: Scottish independence - midden - 05-04-14
The sad bit is unless this ends with a yes vote and independence is won the extremists will not stop screaming for another referendum. It really won't matter that the majority have spoken.
Yet if the result is yes to independence the No voters will be told to shut up and put up the majority have spoken.
Re: Scottish independence - Fazerider - 05-04-14
(04-04-14, 11:04 PM)VNA link Wrote:Yes, Alex Salmond declared that Scotland would walk away from their portion of UK debt if they were denied the UK pound, but since the UK Treasury had previously announced that the debt would be underwritten in the case of independence his threat is empty. It would also be counterproductive.Quote:what, for instance, will be the debt situation for Scotland after?
Well that's another reason why there will be a currency union. If there is no currency union, then Scotland is free to walk away from UK debt. Under a currency union we will have to shoulder our fair share of the debt.
Superficially, it looks like a great deal for an independent Scotland, but it isn't. Scotland would still be liable for servicing the portion of debt… starting out with zero credit history is bad enough, refusing to pay interest on the existing debt would instantly make Scotland a defaulting nation so would push up borrowing rates a lot further.
In the event of a "yes" vote (once all the political grandstanding is over and the two sides have to deal with reality) the most likely outcome would be to allow Scotland to continued use of the GB pound in exchange for ceding some control over taxation and spending.
Re: Scottish independence - VNA - 05-04-14
Quote:The independance lobby has plenty of it's own extremists
Who? And what of their extremism. Seriously you'll have to spell it out to me, as I have not got a clue what you are on about.
Quote:This constant slagging of Westminster
It's pointing out the facts behind the lies, intimidation and bullying. Better together, up to this point is doing all the hard graft for the YES campaign.
You know it wasn't that many years that Westminster put doon the wee upitty nationalist minority by telling us Scots that our country was an economic basket case, we were subsidy junkies and our precious oil was about run oot in a few years!
That argument is over. Nobody today doon sooth would dare tae suggest that an independent Scotland is not viable.
Quote:One question does stay in my mind though - is there not any way that Scotland could work for greater independance within the UK, perhaps some way of keeping the more powerful position we'd all have with the UK as a union, but allowing Scotland to run itself as the people wish?
Well that's what Better Together has promised us. But they won't tell us what that means. There's no substance. It's pig in a poke politics.
That might be fine. But England is right wing, it's obsessed with the free market, with privatisation. It's imperialistic too, it wants to spend our oil money on nuclear weapons and illegal immoral wars.
Others may have a differing stance, but I want independence.
Quote:The sad bit is unless this ends with a yes vote and independence is won the extremists will not stop screaming for another referendum. It really won't matter that the majority have spoken.
Or is that it, if you want independence, you are an extremist!
Sure, it took two shots to get our parliament. It might take two shots to get our independence...........
Re: Scottish independence - midden - 05-04-14
(05-04-14, 02:54 PM)VNA link Wrote:Quote:The independance lobby has plenty of it's own extremists
Sure, it took two shots to get our parliament. It might take two shots to get our independence...........
Isn't that bully boy tactics? We will keep taking shots until everyone agrees to vote our way?
Re: Scottish independence - VNA - 05-04-14
Quote:In the event of a "yes" vote (once all the political grandstanding is over and the two sides have to deal with reality) the most likely outcome would be to allow Scotland to continued use of the GB pound in exchange for ceding some control over taxation and spending.
Yes indeed, something along those lines.
So what does Better Together do? The Tories, Labour and The Lid Dems issue a joint statement saying that Scotland will not be allowed to join the remainder of the UK in a currency union. Period. Full Stop. Zip. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN, IT CANNOT HAPPEN, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.
The SNP say it's Bluff and Blunder. The whole UK media jumps on the SNP and slags em off. A serious kicking is dished out. Serious set back for Independence Campaign and all that.
All this crap about the Euro and currency Union dangers gets branded aboot. Despite Mark Carney having made clear it wouldn't be a problem, yes it would work.
Does the whole of Westminster fall asleep every time Mark Carney speaks?
Then one by one, the economic experts come out and say, well this is all very strange they say, it would be detrimental to the remainder of the UK post a YES vote to deny Scotland the pound. And that's before anybody considered the military angle (nae poond, well take yer subs away tomorrow if you don't mind)
And as it starts crumble, one anonymous Tory MP decides enougth is enougth and pulls the plug. He leaks to the press that it is indeed bluff and blunder - it's a lie.
Good old Better Together! Gotta love em!
Re: Scottish independence - Fazerider - 05-04-14
Not that the "no" camp has a monopoly on bluff and bluster… witness Mr Salmond's optimistic estimates of the real value of the remaining oil reserves.
Re: Scottish independence - noggythenog - 05-04-14
I don't really like getting into poilitical debates....& as a Welsh domicile jock i dont really have much say in all this.......would i like to see scotland get independence......yes.....but possibly that's easy for me to say as living & working in Wales it wont impact me as much as the rest of my family.
I'm pretty easy going....many of my best mates are English...i've lived in Scotland, England & Wales as an adult......what i will say is that Westminster has only done damage to Englands image & reputation.......keeping it simple in my simple mind i think that most Scottish people would be happy to be a part of the UK if England got rid of Westminister.......centralise British politics.....have the base in Mid to North of England......have a ruling party that represents the average person.
& the more that Westminster or other foreign government officials tell Scotland that independence is a bad idea......then naturally it must be a good idea.....just not for them......& you dont have to clever to realise that fact....politicians are the worst type of people to listen to.
Re: Scottish independence - VNA - 05-04-14
The Proclaimers - Cap In Hand
Re: Scottish independence - nick crisp - 05-04-14
(05-04-14, 03:08 PM)VNA link Wrote: And that's before anybody considered the military angle (nae poond, well take yer subs away tomorrow if you don't mind)
Cloud cuckoo land :rolleyes
Re: Scottish independence - noggythenog - 05-04-14
Can England take Aberdeen though??...please....too many shitting in chimneys goes on in Aberdeen! :b
Re: Scottish independence - VNA - 05-04-14
Shit I almost pissed myself there.
Good thing I've got a stove at the end of ma chimney!
NED? Non Educated Delinquent.
Nice one Noggythenog.
Here's wan who wants to take ma photae, but wi ma camera!
![[Image: 2835315919_b534734e95.jpg]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3272/2835315919_b534734e95.jpg)
Re: Scottish independence - nick crisp - 05-04-14
Hey, VNA's gone all Scottish in his spelling - this must mean he's serious :lol
Re: Scottish independence - VNA - 05-04-14
Aye,
Hud a tug o war wi the wee NED abuin, but ance he ken't he wisnae gettin it, ah got this;
![[Image: 2835315925_53f27a532f.jpg]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3074/2835315925_53f27a532f.jpg)
Re: Scottish independence - bigralphie - 05-04-14
I will be sad to sad to see the end of the union. :'(
Always thought of myself as British rather than English a lot of the North of England does I suspect
Lived in Scotland for 4 years on and off while serving in RAF and visit often
think something tangible will be lost forever in a yes vote but it is a matter for Scotland alone
Re: Scottish independence - pilgo - 07-04-14
(05-04-14, 04:55 PM)VNA link Wrote: Aye,
Hud a tug o war wi the wee NED abuin, but ance he ken't he wisnae gettin it, ah got this;
5 very good reasons there why im hoping for a yes vote!! :evil