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+--- Thread: A fun ride... (/showthread.php?tid=56700)
Re: A fun ride... - pitternator - 18-12-11
Sorry I havent logged in for a while, so lost the drift a bit. Graham, I was a qualified observer in a reasonable sized group, a group with more observers than associates tbh, which was one issue. The problem I encountered was not the attitude of the keen young recruits ( like thee ,and me back then) but the silly old tossers who just would not accept change. They were more right wing than david cameroon. And tbh their attitude killed it for me. Many younger guys just got their qualification and left. Maybe I should rejoin and see if its any better...but my suspicion is it wont be.
I do agree than biking needs an advanced training cadre , which while preaching some gospel, wont be bible bashing ! For my own end I did take away a lot of very crucial advanced riding tips, but also do agree that much can be interpreted and adopted a bit too parrot fashion. I evolved my riding style from a curious mixture of IAM,self education over 25 yrs of riding , race schools, books and lots of trackdays. An eclectic mix which maybe suited me, but not everyone..
My basic premise in replying to your post is a concern, that just maybe you put the IAM on a pedestal, that somehow riding at or even beyond your own limit is a good thing so long as its while doing an IAM/ police thing. My thoughts are, stand back, ride at yer own pace, glean the important stuff, develop your own riding style.
I have ridden with several police riders and tbh they dont ride that fast normally. They obviously have more talent than they always show, but tbh dont judge ability just by speed alone.....its safe riding at speed - they know when to back off ...and this is my whole point ......you have to build up to it, not just expect that having an IAM qualifies or even prepares you to ride fast.The single biggest thing I took away from the IAM, and my riding experience is ......have the courage and confidance to back off if you dont feel 100% comfortable. You dont get second chances at high speed.Trouble is, many folk see this as a weakness not a strength.
Re: A fun ride... - Fazerider - 18-12-11
(17-12-11, 10:04 PM)ReNcE link Wrote: On the subject of advanced riding, somebody told me that you can corner faster, and smoother by pushing the bars in the opposite direction - I thought he was getting confused with opposite lock in sliding cars etc, but he swore it was true for bikes, I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Not that knowing it necessarily makes one a better rider, but if you apply pressure to the bars to try to make them turn left the effect of the big gyro between your front forks is to tip the bike over to the right... exactly what you need to get round a right hander. Find an empty bit of straight road and try it (gently) if you don't believe it.
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 18-12-11
(18-12-11, 08:15 AM)pitternator link Wrote: My basic premise in replying to your post is a concern, that just maybe you put the IAM on a pedestal, that somehow riding at or even beyond your own limit is a good thing so long as its while doing an IAM/ police thing. My thoughts are, stand back, ride at yer own pace, glean the important stuff, develop your own riding style.
On a pedestal? No. On a higher step than those who haven't had any more training than what they needed to pass their basic test? Certainly, but I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.
As for "riding at or beyond your limit", the point is that you need to have some idea of where your limit *is* and, more importantly, what to do whilst you're there.
Once you know that, you can start to improve matters, my riding skills have increased noticeably since I started getting the advanced training through better observation and planning and improved control of the bike, such that my limits have extended.
The mistake I made was entirely my own, I wasn't concentrating on what *I* was doing and forgot the basic rule you're told of "Ride your own ride, you are responsible for your own riding decisions", it wasn't because I thought that I was some sort of riding god!
Quote:this is my whole point ......you have to build up to it, not just expect that having an IAM qualifies or even prepares you to ride fast.The single biggest thing I took away from the IAM, and my riding experience is ......have the courage and confidance to back off if you dont feel 100% comfortable. You dont get second chances at high speed.Trouble is, many folk see this as a weakness not a strength.
Sure, but, again, the point is that *any* advanced training should teach that. If someone thinks "I'm IAM trained I can ride fast now!" then they've learned the wrong message, because it should be the *appropriate* use of speed.
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 18-12-11
(18-12-11, 02:21 PM)Fazerider link Wrote: Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.
Re: A fun ride... - Fazerider - 18-12-11
(18-12-11, 02:38 PM)Grahamm link Wrote: [quote author=Fazerider link=topic=1048.msg7832#msg7832 date=1324214476]
Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.
[/quote]
Ah. I did wonder, but have often met folks who ride yet don't know how they're doing it... so took his post at face value.
Re: A fun ride... - richfzs - 18-12-11
(18-12-11, 02:38 PM)Grahamm link Wrote: [quote author=Fazerider link=topic=1048.msg7832#msg7832 date=1324214476]
Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.
[/quote]
trolled, suckered, and damn near rabbit punched
Re: A fun ride... - Phil TK - 18-12-11
(18-12-11, 02:36 PM)Grahamm link Wrote: On a pedestal? No. On a higher step than those who haven't had any more training than what they needed to pass their basic test? Certainly, but I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.
There are other forms of training too. Riding around London on a moped is one, a very good 'training scheme' albeit rather more dangerous of course. When I was a DSA instructor in the mid nineties my school scored the local Pizza Hut contract to train up all their nasty little delivery boys on their C90s, we also took a lot of the trainee taxi cab drivers (also on C90s) who wanted to go on and get their full license. In terms of machine control and traffic positioning most of these guys were 10/10 -that's because they all rode in London and you have to be damn good in London traffic, but it doesn't take long to get good if you ride everyday in the 'smoke'.
I had little to get done with these sorts of students, basically just removing some bad habits, hammering home highway code and cooling down a few overly aggressive filtering techniques, but it was a very high pass rate. As for machine control, the Pizza boys had their own code of acceptability. This was usually put on display before my lessons started in the shape of one handed wheelies, stoppies, doughnuts (whilst facing backwards) and going round in a tight circle one handed wearing away a footpeg in a shower of sparks. You had to smile, I didn't mind as long as it stopped when I said so, they could do anything basically.
Most of these guys probably dumped biking as soon as they got a proper job, but the ones who went on certainly didn't need any advanced training and I think the same goes for most people who've ridden for a while in London.
I would say the complete training experience is a daily London/city commute, a bit of regular dirt track riding (initially with a tutor like Geoff Mayes for eg), a race school session or two and the odd track day. Then you are complete. The dirt tracking is a part that shouldn't be neglected I might add, it's the only safe way to discover your limits of control -not on the road.
You have to crash to learn*
*Geoff Mayes (said whilst wearing a plaster cast on both legs)
Re: A fun ride... - Tiberius Onklevaart - 18-12-11
Not one to always agree with ya Phil, but i have to say i fucking liked that last post.
I ride in Glasgow, not a patch on London i'm sure, but its got its moments. My confidence is good around the city in the tight spaces and through the traffic, and i can be quick and safe. I rarely have many harem scarems like most folk seem to describe in their daily's, but when i get a bit more space and freedom around me the confidence drops some, i'll have to admit, and that to my mind is mainly because of my lack of knowledge on the limits of me and the machine.
I don't ride with folk often, Beer Slag mainly, if ever, but as seldom as it happens, its always a bonus. And my one trip with the foccers soon after passing test left me with 3mm untouched at the sides of a brand new rear boot. All because of being out with folk and seeing how they do it. Folk except moff cos he was already away into next year before i caught up.
But, here's my point.
I really wanna do off road and flat/dirt track stuff to see how far it can go with all the variables of weight, momentum, grip, mentality etc etc etc cos i know it will do me good on the road. I wanna do tarmac track stuff as well obviously but the dirt biking thing really floats me boat
NOT THAT i'M SAYING I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR OTHER MORE OFFICIAL OR RECOGNISED OR ORGANISED TRAINING ROUTES OF COURSE before i gets assumed that i am dissing it or summat.
I wanna do it all, bikesafe, rospa, iam. Its all good to me, i don't care about images and members, it ain't gonna get in the way of me learning about riding, but i really fancy off road and stuff a bit more off the wall
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 18-12-11
(18-12-11, 03:47 PM)Phil TK link Wrote: [quote author=Grahamm link=topic=1048.msg7835#msg7835 date=1324215362]
I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.
There are other forms of training too. Riding around London on a moped is one, a very good 'training scheme' albeit rather more dangerous of course.
[...] but the ones who went on certainly didn't need any advanced training and I think the same goes for most people who've ridden for a while in London.
[/quote]
Pardon my scepticism. Still, I'm sure that the biker featured in this video clip thinks he's a very good rider too and, no doubt he's been riding through London for ages.
knightsbridge.mp4
Personally I think the guy is a complete twunt and an accident waiting to happen.
Quote:You have to crash to learn
I'll have to tell that one to a friend who has had flying lessons...
Re: A fun ride... - chris.biker - 19-12-11
A nutter, he will always be quicker than me as long as his ( Ohh or her) luck stays with them.
Re: A fun ride... - Phil TK - 19-12-11
(18-12-11, 11:46 PM)Grahamm link Wrote: Pardon my scepticism. Still, I'm sure that the biker featured in this video clip thinks he's a very good rider too and, no doubt he's been riding through London for ages.
Personally I think the guy is a complete twunt and an accident waiting to happen.
You're probably right, but apart from slowing the pace down a bit there's nothing the IAM could teach him about London Traffic I'll bet.
Re: A fun ride... - pitternator - 19-12-11
Grahamm
Couple of things...while I am no Keith Code....I have ridden very fast indeed in the past ..even been blackflagged once for speeding on a trackday :lol ...but I do see myself as being one of the lucky ones, being still here today ....many experiment and end in disaster.I put it down to not just having a guardian angel, but an ordered and self critical approach to my own bike training. If I want to develop a skill, I empirically do so, and search out sources of info. A bit diffrent to dodging traffic on mopeds for sure. I started off small and moved through various training schools.I suppose at one point I was " fast", maybe even felt impregnable, I was so " good" ...but it all ended when I had my big crash, a silly smidsy at legal speeds ( 40 mph). That really brought home just how terminal and disastrous for my family , any mistake I made would be at the daft road speeds I had done b4. A road to damascus moment I spose, and it really calmed my desire for speed for its sake alone.
Hence why I preach a bit when I maybe see guys who are what I was like when I was starting out , and why I chuck in my twopenneth to see if it helps at all....
I still like to ride fast , but do so at my bidding , in my environment, and call it a day when I choose to. It swhy I like to ride alone or in very small groups...so I call the shots.
My advice is to try atrackday, its agreat environment to build up yer speed, and tuition is available to help you learn braking points, apexes etc. You also will gain so much confidance in machine control and knowledge of what the bike can do. Hopefully this will help on the road, so if you do encounter that moment at the limit where you might have hesitated and gone a cropper, you will know just what both you an dthe bike can do.Its not something best learnt on the road itself (IMO)... and certainly stuff you wont get taught by the IAM. ! 8)
Re: A fun ride... - Tiberius Onklevaart - 19-12-11
(19-12-11, 08:27 AM)pitternator link Wrote: A road to damascus
I always thought that was a national speed limit road
Hope you were equipped with the knobblies.
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 19-12-11
(19-12-11, 07:36 AM)Phil TK link Wrote: apart from slowing the pace down a bit there's nothing the IAM could teach him about London Traffic I'll bet.
There's another thread on here "Am I liable" asking if the biker is responsible for damage caused when a cyclist comes out from behind a bus unexpectedly.
The twunt in that video wouldn't be responsible for damage, he'd probably be responsible for a KSI.
Knowing *about* the traffic and knowing what's *safe* to do in the traffic are two different things.
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 19-12-11
(19-12-11, 08:27 AM)pitternator link Wrote: Its not something best learnt on the road itself (IMO)... and certainly stuff you wont get taught by the IAM. ! 8)
So when the IAM group I'm a member of had a trackday at Cadwell Park earlier this year, I was fortunate that I was working that weekend because I wouldn't have learned anything from it? :rolleyes
Re: A fun ride... - Phil TK - 19-12-11
(19-12-11, 07:37 PM)Grahamm link Wrote: Knowing *about* the traffic and knowing what's *safe* to do in the traffic are two different things.
Thanks for pointing that out. I presume these nuggetts of amazing IAM enlightenment are written down somewhere, perhaps carved on stone tablets in a sort of IAM 'batcave' in a secret location (probably in the basement of the Daily Express)
I don't know why you posted that video, you seem to be trying to tout it as the antics of a typical London biker so that you can slag us all off. The video is not typical at all, I think we are all agreed it is just a twat who could be riding anywhere. It might even be an IAM observer/instructor/
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 20-12-11
And some people want to tout the IAM as a bunch of over-weight pontificating beardies who clearly don't know anything about *real* riding and couldn't teach a London biker anything etc etc etc. :rolleyes
Re: A fun ride... - pitternator - 20-12-11
Grahamm
Read my post again...I advocate using track days as a vehicle to learn about how to ride fast , and learn limit points , in relative safety...rather than using the road as ones experiment table ! :rolleyes
And yes, the IAM do not really teach how to ride fast . Their real mantra is safety, not speed.Always within the limit....which dont really prepare you if you do want to use the power of ur machine...
Re: A fun ride... - bigralphie - 20-12-11
Never meet a IAM member I,m not quicker than lol
Re: A fun ride... - ghostbiker - 20-12-11
Ahh you can tell its winter when a simple post can turn in to an all out war :lol
done track day and done iams and learnt stuff from both, hell i learn from other riders, from forums from experiance..... i learn new stuff about riding allmost every ride and i have had a bike since i was 14 and stll have foc loads to learn as im FAR from good.
i think you have 2 main types of riders (with many sub types in the main 2 types) those that seek to learn more in anyway they can and those that think they allready know it all.
the basic tone of the thread once you get past the "iams are gods / iams are rubbish" crap is that most of us are in the i want to seek more knowlage type but are in the blinkered sub cat of but im picky where and who i learn it from
