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+--- Thread: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting (/showthread.php?tid=81216)
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - Falcon 269 - 22-10-19
I wonder if by focusing on the starter circuit because you're suffering fueling issues on start-up that you're missing the more likely cause(s). The starter jets are large bore by comparison with the pilot jets and the whole circuit is hardly fine-tuned ... it just serves to richen the mixture for starting and warm-up really. Witness how reluctant the motor is to idle with 'choke' within 30 - 60 secs of firing up.
Before anything else, I assume that the plugs are good and that you've checked the condition of the plug leads. Always worth removing the caps, trimming 1cm off the lead and refitting the caps into fresh cable cores.
The pilot jets are always suspect in fueling issues. Soak in solvent/carb cleaner and be certain that the tiny longitudenal hole is 100% clear. If only partially clear, this will cause hesitant running until the motor is up to temp.
Replace the O-rings on the float needle valve seats like ogri48 suggested. They will be in dodgy condition on almost all Fazer 1000s these days. If they aren't leaking already, they will be soon. Any leakage past them will alter the fuel level in the float bowl and mess with the fueling. It is possible that a high fuel level is causing a rich misfire on cold start up but once the motor is running harder, the demand for fuel is sufficient to reduce the level towards its normal level. This would account for the rough running disappearing when the motor is up to temp.
Do the preceding and then run a few tanks of fuel through with carb cleaner additive to reduce any varnishing that may have occurred in the internal passages. Ultrasonic cleaning should have the same effect but will be far more costly.
FWIW, I've seen Fazer carbs internals that looked diabolical (like green algae, almost!) but they still ran reasonably well. I doubt yours are so badly gummed up as to be beyond sorting if you follow the advice given so far in this thread.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - ogri48 - 22-10-19
there speaks a man who has seen the insides of fazer carbs more times than I've moaned about still being a builder at sixty years old (ie a foccing lot...)
cheers mike :thumbup .Nitrama they should be with you in the morning mate, along with some spares. When I Ivanised I did the first one dry, then used silicone o ring grease on the rest, as that first one had been so tight. So when I had #1 cylinder go down, I kinda new id focced up with that one. Sure enough, I'd guillotined a tiny sliver off the outside radius by fitting it dry, almost impossible to see, but it was doing exactly what Mike described. Hope this sorts it feller...Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 23-10-19
That’s a fair old list Mike!
The plugs were changed about a 1000 miles ago, and I had the problem before they were replaced.
However I didn’t try snipping the HT leads. Odd you mention it as when I changed the plugs the HT lead came away from the cap. I screwed it back in, but that’s defiantly worth a try.
I’ve just soaked all the jets in cleaner overnight. I’ll spend some time tonight checking them over.
Again the theory about the fuel levels makes sense - Ogri has kindly supplied O rings so they’ll go in during the reassembly.
The insides of the carbs and all the galleries Seem spotless with no wear (that’s apparent to me) so I think its a careful rebuild in see how we go from there.
I’ll report back.
As always thanks for your help.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - Falcon 269 - 23-10-19
If the lead came out of the cap that easily, it's a fair bet the contact isn't as good as it should be. Easy fix.
The tiny hole at the end of the pilot jet often needs poking clear even after soaking in cleaner. A top E guitar string is ideal ... assuming you play guitar, of course
Set the mixture screws to 3 1/2 turns out while you have the carbs on the bench.
Hope this fixes the issue but let us know if it persists.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 23-10-19
Just had a close look at the “cleaned” jets.
They all look good through my new favourite toy, an illuminated magnifying glass.
One thing I did notice was that one of the main jet looks like a 130 whilst the others were 132.5.
(That would be replaced during the Ivan install so not too worried about that).
The reason for the post is that I’m changing the rubbers in the needle seat, but can’t actually get it out.
It wobbles when I grab with my fingernails but the rubber seal seems to be holding it in place.
What’s the best way to get it out?
Could use some long nosed pliers and a cloth but thought I’d check with you guys first.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - ogri48 - 23-10-19
I think I used long nosed pliars bud. just gotta watch you dont ding the filters as they come out. they are tight little bastards, you can see how I damaged that first bloody o ring...
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - Falcon 269 - 23-10-19
The staggered main jet sizes are standard, nothing to do with your problem.
Needle nose pliers, straight pull and try to avoid marring the brass as you do it.
Prise the filters off the float needle seat with a small pick or 'driver. Makes removing/fitting the O-rings a lot easier and reduces chance of damaging them. You will probably find that the old O-rings have flattened and may even snap as you pry them out of their grooves. If so, that tends to suggest that they will have been leaking.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 24-10-19
As I’m comfortable that Ive sorted the problems with the cold starting Ive made the (rash) decision to fit Ivans kit.
Using a pin drill I’ve drilled the two air bypass holes but never felt the bit where it tightened up or dropped by 1mm. I used the drill using very little downward pressure as advised but it just seemed to keep going forever. Probably didn’t but it sure felt like it.
It got to the point where I was concerned I was over drilling so I stopped and took some photo’s. Do the holes look OK?
I also wondered if my pin drill was too fat as the chuck part touches the carb flap. Could that be upsetting the angle of attack?
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 24-10-19
And the proper photo!
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - Falcon 269 - 24-10-19
Look OK to me but try this ...
Take the drill bit out of the vise, reverse it and try putting the non-fluted end into the hole to check clearance and depth.
You might want to run the drill through again very lightly just to clean up the edges. They look a little rough but it might just be the hi-res photo.
Don't worry about the vise touching the throttle plate, that's normal. You've actually achieved a steep angle of attack than I used to which might account for the different feeling you got on completing the enlargement.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - ogri48 - 24-10-19
looks good to me too. its a right old game innit lol. be so much easier if you ever do it again
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 24-10-19
I’d like to say I’m enjoying this but Jeez it’s bloody horrible! :eek :eek
As Mike suggested I swapped the drill round and it does go in, it definitely tidied up the holes but I’m not sure what it would be like if it was wrong.
I’ve done another two holes and still can’t feel when I’m breaking through.
I just keep stopping and checking to see where I am, then take a view on whether I’ve gone far enough.
I’ve increased the amount of drill poking out of the vice by a couple of mm and that seems to help both in angle and being able to see what I’m doing.
Of course because you’re not going in vertical the holes tapered and it seems much bigger than it actually is (I hope).
I’ll do the other two carbs tomorrow after my poor old heart recovers.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - ogri48 - 24-10-19
I had the same worries mate. But im fairly certain you cant overdrill, not by hand anyhow, unless you went absolutely mental at it. once youve broken through I think the bit is up against solid alloy. it'll be fine dude. just make sure you blow all the shite out properly. thats advice from bitter experience again lol
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - Falcon 269 - 25-10-19
Extending the bit by a few mils does alter the angle of the cut and that's fine. Too far, though, and the bit becomes more likely to snap. This is not a good thing ...
You're doing great so far. Have you found the online guides to doing the installation? Which kit are you fitting?
With 2 holes enlarged per carb, I suggest you turn the mixture screws out by 4 turns initially. This isn't what you find recommended elsewhere but it's what I found worked best over time.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 25-10-19
(25-10-19, 08:41 AM)Falcon 269 link Wrote: Extending the bit by a few mils does alter the angle of the cut and that's fine. Too far, though, and the bit becomes more likely to snap. This is not a good thing ...
You're doing great so far. Have you found the online guides to doing the installation? Which kit are you fitting?
With 2 holes enlarged per carb, I suggest you turn the mixture screws out by 4 turns initially. This isn't what you find recommended elsewhere but it's what I found worked best over time.
I’m using the one for the slip on silencer - even though mines still running a standard system.
I found extending the drill bit helps a bit as it does seem to make it easier to use.
I also got to number 3 carb and found out the reason for my problems. Basically I needed to grow a pair!
I took the taking your time and don’t use excessive force too far and was fannying around too much.
If I upped the pressure (slightly) and increased the rotation speed a bit it went through and dropped/became tight as described.
Went back to the other holes and they all went through as expected. What a Tw*t!
I did set the air screws to 4.75 turns out but if you think I should go with 4 I’ll definitely give that a go.
And Ogri - thanks for the words of encouragement. I didn’t realise how lonely a garage can be when you don’t know what you’re doing :lol
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - robbo - 25-10-19
And Ogri - thanks for the words of encouragement. I didn’t realise how lonely a garage can be when you don’t know what you’re doing :lol
We've all been there bud at one time or another :lol . Keep at it, sounds as though you're doing just fine :thumbup
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 27-10-19
Latest update: so I’ve just about finished. Springs cut, slides drilled, jets cleaned and main replaced.
Thanks to Ogri I’ve replaced the O rings too, and I’m glad I did. They really were on their way out! In fact due to the state of them I also bought new needle valves, valve seats and o rings for the pilot jet.
Now I’m checking the float heights and notice that two of them are already at 14mm.
So taking Mike’s statement about always being 12.5 mm I’m either measuring it wrong or the new needle/seats are slightly different lengths from standard. I think it’s more a case of the latter rather than the former?
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - Falcon 269 - 27-10-19
Did you buy genuine Yamaha parts? If not, all bets are off ...
I've had bad experiences in the past with aftermarket carb parts, particularly replacement float needle units. Never had an OE needle/seat pair leak fuel regardless of age/mileage, though. I suggest you refit the originals and check the float heights again.
On stock floats, the tang which touches the needle valve will be completely flat. It's easy to see if the tang has been bent by someone previously messing with the float height.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 27-10-19
(27-10-19, 06:27 PM)Falcon 269 link Wrote: Did you buy genuine Yamaha parts? If not, all bets are off ...
I've had bad experiences in the past with aftermarket carb parts, particularly replacement float needle units. Never had an OE needle/seat pair leak fuel regardless of age/mileage, though. I suggest you refit the originals and check the float heights again.
On stock floats, the tang which touches the needle valve will be completely flat. It's easy to see if the tang has been bent by someone previously messing with the float height.
I went with Yambits as I thought they would be better than the stuff you see on eBay for a couple of quid. Maybe I shouldn’t have....
I’ll refit the originals and see what it looks like.
Re: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting - NitramA - 27-10-19
Replaced the needle valve with the original (kept new needle valve seat) and the float height goes to around what it should be.
One thing I did notice was when I move the carbs, using the old needle valve, the float hits the needle valve then sinks as the pin is compressed.
With the new needle valve, it seems to just sit there and doesn’t compress the pin by much, if at all.
The pin is definitely free but the spring seems to be a slightly higher tension.