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+--- Thread: Cornering (/showthread.php?tid=80894)
Re: Cornering - darrsi - 15-06-19
Another age old trick is if you're overcooking a bend at speed, or even simply going round a tight mini roundabout, look where you mean to go with your eyes beforehand and your bike will miraculously do whatever it needs to to get there.
On a mini roundabout for example if you literally turn your head to where you want to go, like i do on the way to work where i'm technically doing a U-turn due to a no right turn road, i find that the bike gets lower and i can really turn around in a smaller area because i'm looking back to where i'm aiming for, and there seems very little effort involved.
Whereas if i just navigate the roundabout by looking in front of me i've found that the bike takes a wider course, and in a more upright manner.
Re: Cornering - BBROWN1664 - 15-06-19
opening up the throttle mid bend will make you go wide.
closing the throttle mid bend will tighten up the turn for you.
Re: Cornering - VNA - 15-06-19
Quote:So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.
Umm no.
Quote:If you're going round a left hand bend and look down at your bars then yup they will be angled to the right.........at the same same as you've realised you've ploughed the hedges on the opposite side of the road and binned it :lol :lol
Umm yes. :eek
Quote:As for chicken strips, don't ever judge me by looking at my tyres, as my bike is for the majority part a commuter bike, so the thought of leaning it over at 10-20mph in London traffic, going to and from work, just to get rid of them like some sort of neanderthal dick comparison contest doesn't really do it for me. All i'm interested in is getting there and back in one piece. :lol
Absolutely. My short commute has a number of opportunities for a bit of lean. Also I guess, for those obsessed with chicken strips probably the tyres fitted will make a difference. My sensible PR3’s don’t have a particularly aggressive profile so maybe I am more likely to use the full width of the tyre.
Re: Cornering - Frosties - 15-06-19
(15-06-19, 01:23 AM)VNA link Wrote:Quote:I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...It is, in that people are taught to lean into a corner. By leaning to the left, you push on the left bar, pushing the front wheel to the right, which makes the bike go left. So it’s not leaning that turns the bike but the pressure you apply to the bar by leaning.
(15-06-19, 11:51 AM)VNA link Wrote:Quote:So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.
Umm no.
The answer is YES, the bars will be slightly angled to the right.
Re: Cornering - unfazed - 15-06-19
The opening the throttle and running wide can be dial almost completely by setting the suspension properly, usually happens because the rear squats and the forks return too quick changing the geometry and the bike goes wide.
Shutting the throttle loads the front but can unsettle the bike which is why a balanced throttle in the correct gear is less unsettling.
The 600 in standard guise was no way near as bad as the 1000 in standard guise for for running wide out of the bends if you power on the throttle
I presently run a Hagon rear shock with an uprated spring (Standard Hagon Spring was too soft) and Hypro progressive front springs with 15w oil. (I use progressive instead of linear because I do a lot of two up touring) The 15W oil in the 600 slows the rebound preventing the sudden unloading of the front and keeping it in line.
Took me quite a while to get it sorted on the 1000 because I was running standard front forks.
Considered changing the front end but when I finally got it working I kept the standard front end.
I have a S1000RR rear and Wilber progressive front again and 10W oil (Progressive because I tour two up on it also).
As some Foccers have stated previously the Hero Blobs at the end of the footrest are your guide.
Thankfully they fold and not dig in like the bikes I started riding back in the 70s. Scary foccing things, solid footrests, no damping and ABS brakes (Anything But Stop) :lol :lol
Mostly it is about confidence in dropping the bike and believing it wont slide, but this also means reading the road conditions correctly.Being in the correct gear for the bend is also important and riding on the throttle through it this prevents the suspension loading on the brakes and unloading off the brakes and accelerating.Trail braking is useful but not really necessary if you are in the right gear for the bend.
Good practice for using the gear box is to use a good road with fast and slow bends you are familiar with and try riding it without using the brakes, just the gears for slowing down and balance the throttle riding through them. You will find at the start dropping to low in the gears but it is all practice. It forces you to read the road and the vanishing point better. You will find you riding becoming smoother and quicker as your reading of the road improves.
Most of us have a limit as to how far we feel safe to bank over and when we go in too quick we have a margin of error to allow us to bank over. unfortunately the inexperienced focus on the point they don't want to hit grab a handful of brake and go straight on to it. The experienced will trail brake gently bank over further and look at where we want to go.
One of the most difficult things to over come on track days is this margin of error, mostly because it take us out of our comfort zone.
The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran counter steering :eek
Re: Cornering - VNA - 15-06-19
Quote:The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran counter steering :eek
That’s serious counter steering in order to correct a rear slide. Or perhaps he’s intentionally ‘rear wheel steering’.
Counter steering is instinctive in that the only way a bike can turn at speeds above a crawl is to counter steer. But of you are steering by leaning, ie counter steering without understanding what is happening then you may not be fully in control of the direction of travel of your motorcycle.
And nor do you need to lean to complete a turn, cos it not leaning that makes the bike turn.
For example, lots of people won’t ride their bikes on moderately windy days , as they get blown all over the place, it scares them silly, and they don’t know what to do about it. Obviously you keep the bike in a straight line on a windy day by the pressure you apply to the bars – counter steering.
I’m with Frosties. :eek :eek :eek If you are scratching your head wondering about counter steering, is it instinctive or not, are you deploying it to change direction quickly etc etc.
Then try the 30-40mph straight line thing. Just play with it a bit. Then think and feel it in corners, notice how you can change your line in a corner effortlessly with a pull or push on the bars.
I think it’s only once you have consciously practised it, experimented and understood it, that it can then become truly instinctive. And a game changer.
Re: Cornering - Steve3351 - 15-06-19
HA HA...!! :lol :rollin :lol
Lots of advice....... but I,m not much the wiser...yes we all countersteer...I want to corner harder and faster..without sliding off or running wide.....I think we can all agree that heads up and looking where ur going is a good tip....
I'm sticking with TRAIL BRAKING....I find it helps steady the bike and shorten the wheelbase into a turn...I'm talking about normal to hard riding....not extreme race level....!!!
Re: Cornering - VNA - 15-06-19
Quote:yes we all countersteer.But do you go round a corner by controlled input on the bars, or leaning over hoping the bike will go round the corner.
There's a world of difference.
Re: Cornering - Steve3351 - 15-06-19
Both...? u have to lean... :\
Re: Cornering - Steve3351 - 15-06-19
A FOCCER surruptitiously SCUFFING his boots......!!!!! :eek
Re: Cornering - VNA - 15-06-19
Quote:Both...? u have to lean... [img alt=:\]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/undecided.gif[/img]Leaning is optional.
Re: Cornering - fazersharp - 15-06-19
What hits the ground first depends also on the camber of that part of the road. for me its equally my toes / hero blobs. Or sometimes neither and the rear wheel will let loose a little - just a little skip, but that could of quite easily been as I go over a slippy join in the road.
The thing with looking at chicken strips - unless they are 1 inch wide is that some manufactures tyre profiles for different bikes you will never completely get rid of chicken strips or the front may be 5 mm and the back 15 - or visa versa.
Find a quiet round about with good visibility so you can see if anything is coming and practice heading for it going round it a few times and turning left off it. I used to have two great ones near me within 1/2 mile of each other and could go from one to the other but one was built next to and became too busy.
A few years ago I read about this counterstearing thing and went to test and it was like "oh that" I was doing it all the time and I didn't know it was a "thing" and had a name.
Re: Cornering - unfazed - 15-06-19
If your engine bars touch down first then they are too low and what I would considere dangerous. They should be the last to tpuch down before it goes on its side
Re: Cornering - ogri48 - 15-06-19
who was the old school yank racer (schwantz I think) who when asked how he cornered hard said" I just go in faster and faster every time until I see God...then I back off...
Re: Cornering - unfazed - 15-06-19
(15-06-19, 01:01 PM)VNA link Wrote:It was in at BSB race practice and he was rear wheel steering. See the black line, tyre spinning, Flipping great to watch, awesome control and confidence.Quote:The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran counter steering :eek
That’s serious counter steering in order to correct a rear slide. Or perhaps he’s intentionally ‘rear wheel steering’.
Re: Cornering - unfazed - 15-06-19
(15-06-19, 01:09 PM)Steve3351 link Wrote: HA HA...!! :lol :rollin :lolUse the gearbox, right gear and throttle on a little :thumbup
Lots of advice....... but I,m not much the wiser...yes we all countersteer...I want to corner harder and faster..without sliding off or running wide.....I think we can all agree that heads up and looking where ur going is a good tip....
I'm sticking with TRAIL BRAKING....I find it helps steady the bike and shorten the wheelbase into a turn...I'm talking about normal to hard riding....not extreme race level....!!!
Do you mean fast cornering when you say hard riding.
Never been lost by a sports bike on my 600 yet except on long straights where I wouldn't have the top speed.
I remember a rider behind me on a run a few years ago, asking if I ever use my brakes, I said yes when riding fast to which he replied "What the Focc do you call what we were doing." :eek
Try riding without using the brakes something, you will have fun :lol
Re: Cornering - fazersharp - 15-06-19
(15-06-19, 03:40 PM)unfazed link Wrote: If your engine bars touch down first then they are too low and what I would considere dangerous. They should be the last to tpuch down before it goes on its sideAs I said it depends on the camber of the road and the nature of the bend on a hill for example. I said equally but my toes are usually the first to catch then hero blobs.
Re: Cornering - Grahamm - 15-06-19
(15-06-19, 07:33 AM)YamFazFan link Wrote: So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.
No.
To initiate a left turn, you push on the left handlebar.
The wheel is rotating forwards and its momentum wants to keep it going in the same direction, but when you push on the handlebar, the gyroscopic effect causes it to "twist" to the left, this is transmitted through the forks to the rest of the bike, making it lean over.
Because the tyres have a round profile, the side on the inside of the turn is shorter than that on the outside of the turn, this causes the bike to turn to the left (if you put a plastic vending machine cup on its side and give it a push, it will roll in an arc for the same reason) *
So once the bike is leant over, it will tend to travel in a curve and it will keep travelling in the same curve provided nothing else changes.
If you push more to the left, the bike will lean in further. If you increase the power, the bike will straighten up and you'd need to countersteer and lean more to keep the bike turning on the same arc.
If you apply the front brake, the bike will want to sit up because its momentum is trying to go forward, but there's a force pushing backwards that is "inside" of the centre of gravity pushing it outwards.
If you throttle off or use the rear brake, it will want to turn in more because this time the force is "behind" the centre of gravity, pulling it inwards.
The thing about countersteering, as mentioned before, is that you do it automatically without realising it, but the trick is to be able to do it consciously in an emergency situation, eg if you overcook a bend and grab a handful of front brake, you're going to go straight on, but if you push on the inside handlebar and look where you want to go, the bike will lean further and you'll be more likely to get away with it!
* This is also why "darksiding" (using car tyres on the rear of a bike) is really stupid, because they don't have the rounded profile. Great if you're on straight American roads with no twisty bits, but pointless if you want to steer through bends!
Re: Cornering - Steve3351 - 15-06-19
That's a good explanation Grahammmmm...so Leaning is NOT optional. Anyway, calm down UNFAZED, it's not a competition to see who can get round fastest, or leave the most metal/leather on the road. What we seek here is a good approach, on the correct line, in the right gear at a brisk but not excessive pace, followed by a smooth arc around the turn leading into a full power exit on the right side of the road, thereby providing a wholesome feeling of harmony between rider, motorcycle and universe. :angel
Re: Cornering - VNA - 16-06-19
Quote:so Leaning is NOT optional.There is only one way to make the motorcycle turn. That is input via yer handlebars.
Leaning is optional. I can ride to work and back sitting bolt upright if I want. It ain't natural and really doesn't help. But it's a fun trick to play with a pillion :lol
But at the end of the day, by leaning you naturally push on the bar end you lean towards. There is only one way to make the motorcycle change direction. That is by input to the handlebars.