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+--- Thread: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! (/showthread.php?tid=78133)
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - mr self destruct - 16-05-17
Personally I don't give a fuck that he's dead, I'm just glad he was caught and stopped from carrying on killing kids.
In my opinion the death sentence is wrong for two reasons; it's irreversible (like has been covered earlier in the thread), and it (like suicide) is an easy cop out for the criminal. As a tax payer I'd gladly pay to keep the likes of him in a steel box for the rest of their natural lives. No parole, no release, no end to the misery. Folk talk about the punishment fitting the crime, well if the victims' families have to live with the consequences of Brady's actions for life, so should he.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - tommyardin - 16-05-17
(16-05-17, 07:30 PM)VNA link Wrote: At the end of the day Brady was a psychopath.
Quote:I'm with others who think that the visit to the Moors a few years back was about Power.
Of course it was. Psychopath’s need to be in control, they also need attention. Even his will is an manipulative attention seeking document.
The public are his audience, and he has played to them.
As for the death penalty, and “beyond reasonable doubt” of which every guilty sentence is beyond reasonable doubt. Though note that our law allows for doubt in that very statement of “beyond reasonable doubt”. So what of the Birmingham six and the Guildford four? Convictions on the back of corrupt policing and a dodgy legal system. They would all be dead if some of you here had your way. And indeed when you think back to the convictions of those innocent men, well there was no doubt the public was baying for blood - big time. An eye for an eye indeed.
I personally see nothing wrong with VNA's post it seems well thought out and reasoned, just because someone thinks different to the way others do it does not make the opinion invalid.
As commented, beyond reasonable doubt is allowed in British law, and who can say with absolute 100% certainty anything, there will always be doubt because we all see things through our own personal experiences or our own coloured spectacles.
The fact that Brady took the police to the Moors and disclosed where some of the bodies were buried has moved it beyond reasonable doubt as to his guilt.
I personally think that his life should have been forfeit, but had that happened a lot of the murdered children would never have received a decent burial and parents not given the opportunity to lay their child to rest.
The people who actually had to make these sort of decisions as to who would live and who would die have to live with the outcome of their decisions, and people are fickle and change their mind at the drop of a hat.
For Example:
The Bible story of Jesus as he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey people were calling out Hosanna, a verbal expression of Glory, adoration and joy, they were also laying palm branches in His path, palm branches meant well-being and victory, these people saw Jesus as someone who would save them from the domination of the Roman Empire.
These very same people that cried Hosanna and laid palm branches in His path were the very same ones who a few days later cried out crucify him.
Whatever you do and whatever decisions you make, someone or some group will always say you made the wrong decision, it's human nature. People are and always will be fickle, their minds are changed by the slightest gust or wind and I number myself amongst them.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - darrsi - 17-05-17
(16-05-17, 11:54 PM)tommyardin link Wrote: [quote author=VNA link=topic=22591.msg260697#msg260697 date=1494959410]
At the end of the day Brady was a psychopath.
Quote:I'm with others who think that the visit to the Moors a few years back was about Power.
Of course it was. Psychopath’s need to be in control, they also need attention. Even his will is an manipulative attention seeking document.
The public are his audience, and he has played to them.
As for the death penalty, and “beyond reasonable doubt” of which every guilty sentence is beyond reasonable doubt. Though note that our law allows for doubt in that very statement of “beyond reasonable doubt”. So what of the Birmingham six and the Guildford four? Convictions on the back of corrupt policing and a dodgy legal system. They would all be dead if some of you here had your way. And indeed when you think back to the convictions of those innocent men, well there was no doubt the public was baying for blood - big time. An eye for an eye indeed.
I personally see nothing wrong with VNA's post it seems well thought out and reasoned, just because someone thinks different to the way others do it does not make the opinion invalid.
As commented, beyond reasonable doubt is allowed in British law, and who can say with absolute 100% certainty anything, there will always be doubt because we all see things through our own personal experiences or our own coloured spectacles.
The fact that Brady took the police to the Moors and disclosed where some of the bodies were buried has moved it beyond reasonable doubt as to his guilt.
I personally think that his life should have been forfeit, but had that happened a lot of the murdered children would never have received a decent burial and parents not given the opportunity to lay their child to rest.
The people who actually had to make these sort of decisions as to who would live and who would die have to live with the outcome of their decisions, and people are fickle and change their mind at the drop of a hat.
For Example:
The Bible story of Jesus as he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey people were calling out Hosanna, a verbal expression of Glory, adoration and joy, they were also laying palm branches in His path, palm branches meant well-being and victory, these people saw Jesus as someone who would save them from the domination of the Roman Empire.
These very same people that cried Hosanna and laid palm branches in His path were the very same ones who a few days later cried out crucify him.
Whatever you do and whatever decisions you make, someone or some group will always say you made the wrong decision, it's human nature. People are and always will be fickle, their minds are changed by the slightest gust or wind and I number myself amongst them.
[/quote]
What the feck are you chatting about now???
It was bad enough getting political, now you're bringing fairy stories into the equation? :rolleyes
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - celticdog - 17-05-17
Why give this monster the satisfaction of our anger, It's a good time to remember his innocent victims.
RIP little ones.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - tommyardin - 17-05-17
(17-05-17, 06:35 AM)darrsi link Wrote: [quote author=tommyardin link=topic=22591.msg260719#msg260719 date=1494975272]
[quote author=VNA link=topic=22591.msg260697#msg260697 date=1494959410]
At the end of the day Brady was a psychopath.
Quote:I'm with others who think that the visit to the Moors a few years back was about Power.
Of course it was. Psychopath’s need to be in control, they also need attention. Even his will is an manipulative attention seeking document.
The public are his audience, and he has played to them.
As for the death penalty, and “beyond reasonable doubt” of which every guilty sentence is beyond reasonable doubt. Though note that our law allows for doubt in that very statement of “beyond reasonable doubt”. So what of the Birmingham six and the Guildford four? Convictions on the back of corrupt policing and a dodgy legal system. They would all be dead if some of you here had your way. And indeed when you think back to the convictions of those innocent men, well there was no doubt the public was baying for blood - big time. An eye for an eye indeed.
I personally see nothing wrong with VNA's post it seems well thought out and reasoned, just because someone thinks different to the way others do it does not make the opinion invalid.
As commented, beyond reasonable doubt is allowed in British law, and who can say with absolute 100% certainty anything, there will always be doubt because we all see things through our own personal experiences or our own coloured spectacles.
The fact that Brady took the police to the Moors and disclosed where some of the bodies were buried has moved it beyond reasonable doubt as to his guilt.
I personally think that his life should have been forfeit, but had that happened a lot of the murdered children would never have received a decent burial and parents not given the opportunity to lay their child to rest.
The people who actually had to make these sort of decisions as to who would live and who would die have to live with the outcome of their decisions, and people are fickle and change their mind at the drop of a hat.
For Example:
The Bible story of Jesus as he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey people were calling out Hosanna, a verbal expression of Glory, adoration and joy, they were also laying palm branches in His path, palm branches meant well-being and victory, these people saw Jesus as someone who would save them from the domination of the Roman Empire.
These very same people that cried Hosanna and laid palm branches in His path were the very same ones who a few days later cried out crucify him.
Whatever you do and whatever decisions you make, someone or some group will always say you made the wrong decision, it's human nature. People are and always will be fickle, their minds are changed by the slightest gust or wind and I number myself amongst them.
[/quote]
What the feck are you chatting about now???
It was bad enough getting political, now you're bringing fairy stories into the equation? :rolleyes
[/quote]
See Darrsi's comment is exactly what I was saying about people all having an opinion and believing that opinion to be the right one.
I am not talking about religion, I am talking about History, events that have been recorded in numerous books, events that tie up with other History books of that time and that fit in and line up with Roman records and Roman Emporeres that were in power at that time and and Jewish records, who most do not believe that this Jesus was who he claimed to be in any way, but they did not deny his existence because they recorded him in there writings.
History has recorded that the story of Jesus to be is a true story, now whether he was who He claimed to be or just a deluded individual you make your own mind up, but history is history and for someone to say off the top of their head this or that is just a fairy story is absolutely unbelievable. It would be the same as me saying Christopher Columbus never existed or Ceaser was a figment of someone's imagination. You can not say theses are Fairy Stories cos you were not there.
I know this has now moved this post to a completely different place and my apologies about that, but to completely write something off as a fairy story just because they have made a dicission for themself or choose not to believe it is ridiculous because if it is true it is true and your choice will make not one jot or tittle of difference to the truth. Passionately believing something that is not true makes a person gullible, passionately disbelieving something that is true makes a person arrogant.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - darrsi - 17-05-17
Why not just throw old Noah into the mix, who supposedly died aged 950. :eek
If it wasn't so utterly ridiculous then it may actually be laughable.
But if it was written in a book then it must be true. :rollin :rollin :rollin
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - slappy - 17-05-17
Politics and religion make fairy stories seem normal.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - VNA - 17-05-17
Quote:Prison is also supposed to be a deterrent. If poor, deprived little Johnny Crackhead can expect an easy ride after terrorising his neighbourhood, he isn't likely to change his ways, is he?
I sure don’t fancy prison.
Talking about your Johnny Crackhead, I remember reading of one long running experimental prison rehabilitation programme. Basically, first time offenders like Johnny Crackhead were offered to be part of a fast track rehabilitation programme. In exchange for active participation and good behaviour their sentence could be significantly reduced. But first the victim had to agree to this and also to taking part. The idea was that young or first time offenders like Johnny would have to face up to their crimes. There were various aspects to the scheme, but one key part was several sessions sitting down face to face with the victim of whatever their crime was.
There was also a TV documentary about said scheme. The effect on the offender was startling. Nor was it easy viewing. I can’t remember the precise stats for the experiment, but it was something in the order of those whom participated in it were 3 or 4 times less likely to re-offend then those who didn’t take part. It was, in other words, fantastically successful.
As far as I know most of these schemes have been ditched.
As we can see on this thread rehabilitation of offenders is not popular and frankly not a vote winner.
Hang em, beat em, let them rot etc is much more popular. So brain dead banging on about being tough on crime and talking pish aboot punishing criminals etc, rather than rehabilitating them, wins votes. But the fact is a brutal prison system that has no interests in rehabilitation breeds hardened criminals and subsequently we all suffer.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - slappy - 17-05-17
So rehab for the offender, and what support did their victims get?
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - Dudeofrude - 17-05-17
I've got no problem with rehabilitation but that doesn't mean prison can't be hell for the people in it.
I can't see why they have niceties. There shouldn't be tvs, pool tables, gyms etc etc it should be a room with a bed and a piss hole.
Their time should involve 3 meals a day, 6 hours work, 4 hours rehabilitation, 1 hour outside and that should be that until the times up
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - VNA - 17-05-17
Hey like I say, you can send em to hell and they'll come out harder, even more fucked up, detached from society and guranteed to cause mayhem and re-offend.
Or you can strike a balance between punishment and investing in rehabilitation and release people ready to become part of society and unlikely to reoffend.
But like I say, macho, testosterone fuelled brain dead bull shit is the vote winner, so our prisons are a little light on the rehabilitation projects.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - tommyardin - 17-05-17
(17-05-17, 10:58 AM)darrsi link Wrote: Why not just throw old Noah into the mix, who supposedly died aged 950. :eek
If it wasn't so utterly ridiculous then it may actually be laughable.
But if it was written in a book then it must be true. :rollin :rollin :rollin
Oh Darrsi!,
The hat of arrogance fits you so well and I feel the style also suits you.
I was, and am, talking about recorded history not just in a religious book (Which you seem to believe is a book of Fairy Stories) but also in secular history books and documents. Some of the records talk about how he was despised, these people were not his friends and some spoke harshly about him, why would they do that if he did not exist.
Noah I know very little about, you seem to know more about him than I do, I did not know he allegedly lived to 950 years of age, now that does seem unbelievable as most die from heart disease or cancer or some other equally vile cause in this modern world. (note I said does seem unbelievable)
We should all be willing to be more open minded and not jump to conclusions or desissions about things that don't sit comfortably with us, just because you choose not to believe something does not make it untrue.
I have met a couple of guys in my life time that utterly refused to believe their wife was being unfaithful to them, because it was uncomfortable and painful so it was easier to deny it, but I'm afraid denial does not change fact.
You know I still think the world is flat and if I ride my Fazer all day and night long I will fall off the edge, because I don't believe what someone once said.
You would OK though Darrsi because you would probably not be able to get yours started, so you would not fall off the edge, but we would all certainly hear the backfiring.
:finger
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - tommyardin - 17-05-17
(17-05-17, 10:48 PM)VNA link Wrote: Hey like I say, you can send em to hell and they'll come out harder, even more fucked up, detached from society and guranteed to cause mayhem and re-offend.
Or you can strike a balance between punishment and investing in rehabilitation and release people ready to become part of society and unlikely to reoffend.
But like I say, macho, testosterone fuelled brain dead bull shit is the vote winner, so our prisons are a little light on the rehabilitation projects.
They are in the prison costing us a shed full of money it would cost next to nothing more to have a rehab programme in place and if it only stopped 10% from re-offending it would be worth it.
Sometimes showing someone a little kindness and interest produces results for the better, not always I'm sure, but sometimes it will.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - VNA - 17-05-17
Quote:They are in the prison costing us a shed full of money it would cost next to nothing more to have a rehab programme
I think that’s the problem. Rehabilitation programs whilst they may not cost a fortune, well they ain’t exactly cheap either. They add to costs in the short term, but enable massive savings in the long term.
Quote:Sometimes showing someone a little kindness and interest produces results for the better, not always I'm sure, but sometimes it will.
Personally I’m not sure I give a flying fuck about certain criminal types. Frankly if short, sharp, shock borstals or long term harsh heavy labour camps worked and turned out well balanced, socially minded individuals determined to make their way in society and never to reoffend, well hey that would be fine by me. It sure sounds satisfying.
But, sadly, the reality is such policy has been proven to fail, and worse still, interestingly enough, has a habit of attracting sadistic individuals as employees. Such facilities have been proven to turn out large numbers of 5 star total nutters. Whatever goes in comes out five times more fucked up.
On the other hand, educational rehabilitation centres that force criminals to face up to and take responsibility for their actions are proven to turn out large numbers of reformed decent individuals determined to become valued members of society.
My interest is simple, it’s only in being able to live in a civilised society, not having to worry too much about being done over, have my house broken into, or having large chunks of my tax cash wasted on dumb boot camps that are proven not to work.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - VNA - 17-05-17
Oh and I should point out again, that when I mention rehabilitation I'm talking about full blown psychopaths - like Brady.
People identified as and diagnosed as psychopaths are not suitable for rehabilitation. If the diagnosis is correct, then it is not possible to rehabilitate them in any shape or form. A psychopath with serious criminal habits will always reoffend.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - darrsi - 17-05-17
(17-05-17, 11:32 PM)VNA link Wrote: Oh and I should point out again, that when I mention rehabilitation I'm talking about full blown psychopaths - like Brady.
People identified as and diagnosed as psychopaths are not suitable for rehabilitation. If the diagnosis is correct, then it is not possible to rehabilitate them in any shape or form. A psychopath with serious criminal habits will always reoffend.
So, in your words, if they're untreatable then what should be done with them?
So far all he's done is mock people for his own pleasure. He's shown zero remorse and if he'd ever released the whereabouts of the lost boy then his game would be up, so that was his lifetime of leverage.
I"m amazed nobody inside never made a mess of him to be truthful.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - tommyardin - 17-05-17
(17-05-17, 11:32 PM)VNA link Wrote: Oh and I should point out again, that when I mention rehabilitation I'm not talking about full blown psychopaths - like Brady.
People identified as and diagnosed as psychopaths are not suitable for rehabilitation. If the diagnosis is correct, then it is not possible to rehabilitate them in any shape or form. A psychopath with serious criminal habits will always reoffend.
Can't argue with that.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - tommyardin - 17-05-17
I was once told by a judge (yes I actually know one, and occasionally have a beer with him, well he drinks wine but you get my drift) and he told me that offenders do not go to prison to be punished but hopefully rehabilitated, having their liberty taken away for that period is the punishment.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - VNA - 18-05-17
Quote:So, in your words, if they're untreatable then what should be done with them?.
Today it’s pretty much accepted that true psychopaths are untreatable. From treatments or rehabilitation, they simply learn how to be ‘better’ psychopaths. They are simply wired up differently from the rest of us. Some of the attempts to rehabilitate fully blown psychopaths and release them into society are, umm, well, interesting – to say the least.
Bear in mind that not all psychopaths are of the child murdering throat slitting variety. Many psychopaths know how to play by the rules and live their lives amongst us (it is said a high proportion of CEOs and company chairmen are psychopathic). Psychopaths are simply extreme sociopaths totally without conscience. Conscience is not something they can understand and they are not capable of it.
That’s the long answer. The short answer is make sure they can do no harm. If they have failed to live by the rules you lock em up for life. There's no point at any attempt to rehabilitate, and I dont believe in the death sentence (you need a fucking sociopath to carry it out FFS!)
Oh, how about Theresa May? She’s a possible psychopath. Though personally I suspect she merely suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, ditto Donald Trump.
Psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists are all often extremely good at observation and working out what people want and how to charm them. They are very often experts at telling people what they want to hear in a very convincing manner. If highly intelligent, like Tony Blair, they have an awful habit of rising to the top of the shit heap.
Re: Good News!! Ian Brady is dead!! - darrsi - 18-05-17
(18-05-17, 01:07 AM)VNA link Wrote:Quote:So, in your words, if they're untreatable then what should be done with them?.
Today it’s pretty much accepted that true psychopaths are untreatable. From treatments or rehabilitation, they simply learn how to be ‘better’ psychopaths. They are simply wired up differently from the rest of us. Some of the attempts to rehabilitate fully blown psychopaths and release them into society are, umm, well, interesting – to say the least.
Bear in mind that not all psychopaths are of the child murdering throat slitting variety. Many psychopaths know how to play by the rules and live their lives amongst us (it is said a high proportion of CEOs and company chairmen are psychopathic). Psychopaths are simply extreme sociopaths totally without conscience. Conscience is not something they can understand and they are not capable of it.
That’s the long answer. The short answer is make sure they can do no harm. If they have failed to live by the rules you lock em up for life. There's no point at any attempt to rehabilitate, and I dont believe in the death sentence (you need a fucking sociopath to carry it out FFS!)
Oh, how about Theresa May? She’s a possible psychopath. Though personally I suspect she merely suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, ditto Donald Trump.
Psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists are all often extremely good at observation and working out what people want and how to charm them. They are very often experts at telling people what they want to hear in a very convincing manner. If highly intelligent, like Tony Blair, they have an awful habit of rising to the top of the shit heap.
The amount of people i've heard say it's about time the long haul prisoner Charles Bronson (Salvador) should be released now just astonishes me, because the man is only a victim of his own wrongdoings over the years.
He can't control or behave himself whatsoever, and the thought of him being let out into today's world where the level of general respect towards other people has probably all but vanished in comparison to when he was last roaming free would most likely end in him being back inside on the same day.
The price of a pint would probably be enough to push him over the edge for starters.