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+--- Thread: thicker sprocket nut worth a check (/showthread.php?tid=77289)
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - YamFazFan - 29-01-17
(29-01-17, 06:58 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: [quote author=YamFazFan link=topic=21736.msg251119#msg251119 date=1485708786]I think I can say that the general consensus is that yes that is the case, and it is the luck of the draw if your shaft is undersized which explains why some have the issue and others not.
Am I correct in thinking that it wasn't the original nut and torque spec that was at fault but it was an issue with some of the output shafts being slightly undersized, thus allowing the nut to work free?.
My own research and theory points to the first 98 models being unaffected as the shafts were done in 1 factory and then the bike took off and the shafts had to be made in other factories to keep up with demand, then there is a cut off time when the problem was spotted and after that the shafts were in spec and the 12mm nut was issued as a fix instead of swapping the shafts on affected bikes. :lurk
Over the years on this forum not 1 98 bike has had the problem --- with the caveat being that it has to of occurred on a factory fitted nut, so as to rule out a replacement not being correctly fitted. Admittedly a 98 on original sprockets is getting rare although I have one.
[/quote]
That's interesting that no 1998 bikes seem to have been affected by this issue. Your theory sounds quite plausible.
Is the only difference in the nuts the extra couple of threads?.
I had the uprated nut fitted to my 2003 Foxeye last year but it was done at the garage, so although I supplied the new nut (and got given the old one back) I wasn't able to compare them together.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - fazersharp - 29-01-17
Yes it just has an extra few threads. Maybe its the few extra threads that keeps it on but more likely its the ability to go to 90Nm that does it.
You should be able to tell if you have the deeper nut as the 9mm one finishes with just about 1 1/2 shaft thread showing and the 12mm finishes flush with the end of the shaft with no thread showing.
I have a 98 and I should add that I do trust the 9mm nut and keep an eye on it and an ear out for it and I have the 12mm nut ready to fit and will use the 12mm when I change the sprocket
More malarky here http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,19504.msg225613.html#msg225613
And here
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,17632.0.html
I can see mine from underneath the bike as I cleaned out the gunk not long ago, you can see the thread and the tab see the picture below chain in the forground and on the right
[img height=624 width=597]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19958.0;attach=24542;image[/img]
9mm nut as per yam factory
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - darrsi - 30-01-17
(29-01-17, 02:54 PM)tommyardin link Wrote: [quote author=fazersharp link=topic=21736.msg251101#msg251101 date=1485692378]
Nail varnish as a thread lock - it may work but I would of thought that it is too brittle whereas the locktite I believe has bit of elasticity with it.
I have some blue locktite but that is not the recommended one read it all here http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0
The recommended one is 620 and is very expensive
Cheers Sharpie,
I just read the posts in the link you put up.
So many people are saying don't tighten the nut up to 90Nm and don't use Loctite, how come so many guys know so much more that Yamaha do about a piece of machinery that Yamaha designed and produced.
It seems the Butcher The Baker and The Candlestick makers are all qualified to help you fuck up you motorcycle, by giving you their knowledgeable and poor thought out opinions and reasons.
I think I will listen to Yamaha and their expert advice and give Brian who works in the kitchen department at B&Q a miss.
If I want to know about kitchen taps I will ask Brian, because Yamaha know fuck all about kitchen taps.
I have a new front sprocket to go on my old girl in the next week or so, I have also purchased some Loctite, as I also have not followed Yamaha's advice, because i used nail varnish instead of the proper stuff.
Cleanliness is a thing to remember when fitting the sprocket nut, make sure everything in contact with the nut, washer, sprocket and gearbox face is clean and tighten it up to the recommended torque using the recommended Loctite 620, also check and re-check again that the tab washer is indeed located in the output shaft splines, and double flat the the sides of the tab washer against the nut with a tight snug fit.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914
Loctite 620 is pricey (See Link above)
I would be a little hesitant about buying this stuff from Hong Kong or China.
Some of the sales of the stuff on evilBay look like they are being sent from Australia as the prices are marked up in Aus $ dollars, but with a closer look they are being posted from China or Hong Kong, seems a bit deceitful to me.
I know there is no real 100% sure-fire way of knowing that you are getting the real stuff, as there is so much fake stuff out their, ranging from Motor products to shampoo.
There is an old saying 'If a deal seems to good to be true>>>>> blah blah blah'
The link above are UK based Seller, their feedback is good and their price seems about normal.
The first picture is ideal, the second picture is a No No, because it will allow the nut to rock/rotate under the immense power of the drive and will slowly hammer the washer flats back down as it snatches as the power goes on, the other thing is use the proper washer and not a bit of thick grey paper like I used. :lol
[/quote]
Hold on a sec Tommy, it's Yamaha that created this problem in the the first place, nobody else!
So if you think that there's a reasonable chance that a nut isn't going to correctly tighten on to a thread the way it really should then you surely must understand peoples apprehension of the chance of over tightening and fecking things up even further, then opening up a world of pain.
The fact that if a 9mm wide nut officially needs 70Nm, it would seem perfectly plausible to me that a similar threaded nut but with a few more threads and made 3mm wider would only be a plus, even at the same torque?
So even though they've suggested 90Nm, i can't see a problem in tightening it just a bit more to 80Nm. It's still 10Nm more than before and with a wider area to lock down. Adding a bit of Loctite as suggested will obviously only help further, but in reality these are attempts at fixing a problem that Yamaha caused which really shouldn't exist, especially when it involves a moving and weight bearing part.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - fazersharp - 30-01-17
Quote:if you think that there's a reasonable chance that a nut isn't going to correctly tighten on to a thread the way it really should then you surely must understand peoples apprehension of the chance of over tightening and fecking things up even further, then opening up a world of pain.
The fact that if a 9mm wide nut officially needs 70Nm, it would seem perfectly plausible to me that a similar threaded nut but with a few more threads and made 3mm wider would only be a plus, even at the same torque?
So even though they've suggested 90Nm, i can't see a problem in tightening it just a bit more to 80Nm. It's still 10Nm more than before and with a wider area to lock down. Adding a bit of Loctite as suggested will obviously only help further,
Yes that is a good point and I believe that the general consensus on here a while back was to go for the half way 80Nm with the wider nut.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - tommyardin - 30-01-17
(30-01-17, 07:36 AM)darrsi link Wrote: [quote author=tommyardin link=topic=21736.msg251107#msg251107 date=1485698091]
[quote author=fazersharp link=topic=21736.msg251101#msg251101 date=1485692378]
Nail varnish as a thread lock - it may work but I would of thought that it is too brittle whereas the locktite I believe has bit of elasticity with it.
I have some blue locktite but that is not the recommended one read it all here http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0
The recommended one is 620 and is very expensive
Cheers Sharpie,
I just read the posts in the link you put up.
So many people are saying don't tighten the nut up to 90Nm and don't use Loctite, how come so many guys know so much more that Yamaha do about a piece of machinery that Yamaha designed and produced.
It seems the Butcher The Baker and The Candlestick makers are all qualified to help you fuck up you motorcycle, by giving you their knowledgeable and poor thought out opinions and reasons.
I think I will listen to Yamaha and their expert advice and give Brian who works in the kitchen department at B&Q a miss.
If I want to know about kitchen taps I will ask Brian, because Yamaha know fuck all about kitchen taps.
I have a new front sprocket to go on my old girl in the next week or so, I have also purchased some Loctite, as I also have not followed Yamaha's advice, because i used nail varnish instead of the proper stuff.
Cleanliness is a thing to remember when fitting the sprocket nut, make sure everything in contact with the nut, washer, sprocket and gearbox face is clean and tighten it up to the recommended torque using the recommended Loctite 620, also check and re-check again that the tab washer is indeed located in the output shaft splines, and double flat the the sides of the tab washer against the nut with a tight snug fit.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914
Loctite 620 is pricey (See Link above)
I would be a little hesitant about buying this stuff from Hong Kong or China.
Some of the sales of the stuff on evilBay look like they are being sent from Australia as the prices are marked up in Aus $ dollars, but with a closer look they are being posted from China or Hong Kong, seems a bit deceitful to me.
I know there is no real 100% sure-fire way of knowing that you are getting the real stuff, as there is so much fake stuff out their, ranging from Motor products to shampoo.
There is an old saying 'If a deal seems to good to be true>>>>> blah blah blah'
The link above are UK based Seller, their feedback is good and their price seems about normal.
The first picture is ideal, the second picture is a No No, because it will allow the nut to rock/rotate under the immense power of the drive and will slowly hammer the washer flats back down as it snatches as the power goes on, the other thing is use the proper washer and not a bit of thick grey paper like I used. :lol
[/quote]
Hold on a sec Tommy, it's Yamaha that created this problem in the the first place, nobody else!
So if you think that there's a reasonable chance that a nut isn't going to correctly tighten on to a thread the way it really should then you surely must understand peoples apprehension of the chance of over tightening and fecking things up even further, then opening up a world of pain.
The fact that if a 9mm wide nut officially needs 70Nm, it would seem perfectly plausible to me that a similar threaded nut but with a few more threads and made 3mm wider would only be a plus, even at the same torque?
So even though they've suggested 90Nm, i can't see a problem in tightening it just a bit more to 80Nm. It's still 10Nm more than before and with a wider area to lock down. Adding a bit of Loctite as suggested will obviously only help further, but in reality these are attempts at fixing a problem that Yamaha caused which really shouldn't exist, especially when it involves a moving and weight bearing part.
[/quote]
That's very true that this issues was caused by Yamaha in the first place.
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance and according to what I have heard repaired bikes that have been damaged by this faulty part. Now this process can only go on for a certain period as the last of these machines FZS600 were produced 14 years ago, the replacement parts are still available directly from Yamaha and i have been told if you make a fuss they will post the parts to you free of charge to just to keep the piece, to get you off their back.
So many vehicles get recalls on them because of faults and the manufactures for the best part do their level best to rectify the situation and that is exactly what Yamaha have done tried their best to rectify it buy producing a replacement part the 12 mm nut, and have given instructions on how to fit the part that their engineers have come up with.
So it would still seem to me to be folly to ignore their instructions as they will have spent a lot of time wanting to get it right as they could not afford for this to crop up again, and pick torque figures out of the sky is just folly
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - fazersharp - 30-01-17
On the other hand when we are talking about 80/90Nm how much of a difference would 10Nm make - 10Nm on its own is almost hand tight.
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - darrsi - 30-01-17
(30-01-17, 03:57 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: On the other hand when we are talking about 80/90Nm how much of a difference would 10Nm make - 10Nm on its own is almost hand tight.
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
No, it works in a different way.
If you remember, the correct way of "lubing" AND getting a true torque reading was by using engine oil.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - YamFazFan - 30-01-17
[/quote]
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
[/quote]
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - fazersharp - 30-01-17
(30-01-17, 05:03 PM)darrsi link Wrote: [quote author=fazersharp link=topic=21736.msg251178#msg251178 date=1485788251]
On the other hand when we are talking about 80/90Nm how much of a difference would 10Nm make - 10Nm on its own is almost hand tight.
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
No, it works in a different way.
If you remember, the correct way of "lubing" AND getting a true torque reading was by using engine oil.
[/quote]
Just remind me the way it works then, are you saying that torquing up dry will lead to under torquing as it bites too early and all torque settings are based on engine oil as lube
It seems that yam have got away with it because I dont know of any reports of shafts being replaced when the thread gets foced by the fault because by the time it happens to someone the bike is years out of warranty. So instead of a big recall they have got away with it by throwing a 10p nut at the problem.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - darrsi - 30-01-17
No, the discussion was about using copper grease, and how it affects torque settings.
Then just to make sure i fucked up my rear caliper using copper grease with a torque setting of about 10Nm. :'(
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - tommyardin - 30-01-17
(30-01-17, 03:57 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: On the other hand when we are talking about 80/90Nm how much of a difference would 10Nm make - 10Nm on its own is almost hand tight.
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size :eek as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
Sharpie you are always saying stuff like that LOL :thumbup
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - fazersharp - 30-01-17
You know what as I was writing that I was expecting you to respond to it, and gave it to you
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - tommyardin - 30-01-17
Well! we all gotta do what we all gotta do, :rolleyes
I still think Yamaha knows a lot more about Yamaha's than Joe average on here and I name myself amongst those.
So what I am saying I suppose is each to their own, we decide for our selves and if we foc it up, WE foc it up.
Mine went up to 90Nm with no trouble at all in fact I was quite surprised how easy it was to get it to 90Nm with my torque wrench, mind you the torque wrench is about 19 or 20 inches long so lots of leverage.
Everyone has their own opinion and you will always have disagreement whether you talking about Batteries ,Tyres, Oil, Spark Plugs, Filter or fuel additives.
Oh! I said earlier that I had an Afam front sprocket to go on the old girl when it is actually a Renthal.
And something else i will do is replace the 12 mm nut and washer with new when I put the new sprocket on, there is a school of thought that says that that when a nut or bolt has been under stress it deforms and does not return to its original state when slackened off, and, when you return the nut or bolt to the original torque it can snap as it was already stressed before tightening.
I know a lot of bolts on cars now have to be replaced once they have been torqued up especially high stress area like cylinder head bolts, so as this nut is suspect I will err on the side of caution and replace the fixing kit.
I purchased 3 nuts and 3 washers when I originally changed the nut for the 12 mm one last autumn.
Some where on here I did read that there was possibly some output shafts that were produced outside of Yamaha factory to help keep up with demand, don't know why it would just be the output shaft? what about the rest of the gear box?????
Anyway I read that the first of the FZS600 had the Yamaha shaft and once the fault was detected the later ones had the up to scratch shaft again, so it was just the intermediate years that seemed to struggle.
There is one fault with that reasoning though as I understand things and that is some of the early FZ6's had a similar problem.
All I know is that I bloody near burst a blood vessel trying to get the original nut off mine and ended up taking it to a garage and the guy took it off with a windy spanner and he had the compressor running as he did it.
:'( <<<< his problem is tight nuts :eek
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - tommyardin - 30-01-17
(30-01-17, 10:48 PM)fazersharp link Wrote: You know what as I was writing that I was expecting you to respond to it, and gave it to youThank you :kiss
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - tommyardin - 30-01-17
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting
Hi YamFazFan,
A request went out to all Official Yamaha dealerships telling them to replace the nut and washer as a matter of course whenever an FZS 600 came into their workshops to have work done to them, and the replacement was free, and the workshop was to put a centre punch mark after the info on the frame plate near the steering head. There was never an official call back as it was deemed to be a relatively small number of machines afflicted with this fault/problem and judging by the numbers of FZS 600 still about some 14 to 19 years later it sort of bears this out. And to be honest if this wasn't the case would we be the proud owners of our bikes or would we all be on Honda or Quackers.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - darrsi - 30-01-17
Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!
That sounds so wrong....
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - tommyardin - 30-01-17
(30-01-17, 11:20 PM)darrsi link Wrote: Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!It does on all levels :rolleyes
That sounds so wrong....
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - darrsi - 31-01-17
Instead of just "falling off" it just did some weird bonding shit and fused itself to the shaft.......oh i'm sorry that sounds so very wrong as well.
Anyway, instead of a quick replacement on top of a tyre change, it became an expensive process, but in fairness i'd rather he fixed it than me.
I was told a LOT of heat was needed, in his words.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - YamFazFan - 31-01-17
(30-01-17, 11:10 PM)tommyardin link Wrote: Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting
Hi YamFazFan,
A request went out to all Official Yamaha dealerships telling them to replace the nut and washer as a matter of course whenever an FZS 600 came into their workshops to have work done to them, and the replacement was free, and the workshop was to put a centre punch mark after the info on the frame plate near the steering head. There was never an official call back as it was deemed to be a relatively small number of machines afflicted with this fault/problem and judging by the numbers of FZS 600 still about some 14 to 19 years later it sort of bears this out. And to be honest if this wasn't the case would we be the proud owners of our bikes or would we all be on Honda or Quackers.
Hi tommyyardin
I wonder if because my Fazer was one of the last in the production run it wasn't affected by this issue?.
The original 9mm nut never came adrift thankfully, but it's got to be a good idea to fit the uprated nut anyway isn't it.
Re: thicker sprocket nut worth a check - fazersharp - 31-01-17
(30-01-17, 11:20 PM)darrsi link Wrote: Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!Clearly your shaft is in spec ------------ came from the 98 factory run
That sounds so wrong....
EDIT
Sorry I didnt see your later reply about it being fused on,being the reason it took so long -sounds like you have a thin shaft.
I wouldn't say my bike is pampered I just don't like getting wet, that's what the car is for. I doesn't get very dirty because of the dry riding and it is kept in a garage. I dont get to ride as often as I would like because of family and work commitments and so the mileage is also low its on 20k now 19 years old.