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+--- Thread: spark plugs (/showthread.php?tid=57001)
Re: spark plugs - richfzs - 13-01-12
Well, I think this is the first time Gnasher has been accused of giving bad advice, I'd certainly take his over somebody who just turns up and starts calling people names.
So then, Lumpy, what is a KAFA?
Re: spark plugs - Lumpy - 13-01-12
(13-01-12, 06:18 PM)Major Rant link Wrote:I would imagine the aluminium alloy is resistant to this precipitation heat treatment to a major degree, not daft these nips. The coefficient of thermal expansion was really the important on here but Mr KAFA seems to think the alloy gets soft at operating temperatures. If he also knew about copper grease he would know, although thermally resistant to a point, it is a major no no once the evaporables evaporate and it becomes a congealed mass. You can look that up on the internet too.Quote:The ally isn't softer at 160 degress C than it is at 0 degrees C
Its properties certainly can change at 160C. I would say its more likely to fracture but not because its soft, more probably because its become grainy.
Google "preciptation heat treatment".
All you need to do to look clever is pretend to know more than the masses and in this case it appears to have worked.
I'm newbieish on here but well known in other places, some say regrettably, and one of my saying has, for years, been bad advice is worse than no advice. Poor old gnashipoos cannot have any substatiation to a lot of his arguments as there is nothing to substantiate them as they are wrong, some of them anyways, some have a modicum of actual information and truth though.
Re: spark plugs - Fazerider - 13-01-12
(13-01-12, 06:20 PM)richfzs link Wrote: Well, I think this is the first time Gnasher has been accused of giving bad advice, I'd certainly take his over somebody who just turns up and starts calling people names.Well, in this case he certainly did. Utilising the difference in coefficient of thermal expansion of dissimilar metals is a long established method for shifting stubborn steel screws out of alloy... made use of it myself only a month or so back to get the old brake discs off.
Re: spark plugs - Bracechenko - 13-01-12
Lumpy - Right or wrong, you're a dick :moon
Re: spark plugs - markd - 13-01-12
hi guys update on spark plugs one out and 1 snapped in half. so of to garage
Re: spark plugs - Major Rant - 13-01-12
Quote:I would imagine the aluminium alloy is resistant to this precipitation heat treatment to a major degree, not daft these nips.
Its not an accidental thing done by daft people. Its an engineering thing done by engineers and accountants.
In this case they choose the cheapest aluminium that will do the job and I don't suppose they care what happens at the micron level at the extremes of temperature.
If Mr Gnasher says they can strip the threads if you try to shift stubborn plugs hot then I'd tend to believe him cos he's probably done hundreds and stripped 3.
I've got no evidence either way cos I've never had the problem cos I always put a small blob of grease (I use whatever's handy, usually LM3) on the plug threads before I screw them in.
Re: spark plugs - scousy - 13-01-12
changing the subject a bit , what is the best thing to put on the plug threads then ? also is it not good putting copper slip on ex-up valve for the same reason as plugs again if so what's best to use ?
Re: spark plugs - Bracechenko - 13-01-12
(13-01-12, 10:09 PM)markd link Wrote: hi guys update on spark plugs one out and 1 snapped in half. so of to garage
Sorry to hear that bud.
Would be great to know if you did one with engine hot and the other with engine cold. Could settle a little argument lol :rollin
Re: spark plugs - Fazerider - 13-01-12
Sorry to hear that Mark.
Did the broken one come out cleanly complete with the electrode? If it's like this recent post:
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,1160.0.html
... then it may not put up much of a fight. For a start the tension is off the thread and secondly penetrating oil can get in there easily.
Re: spark plugs - Gnasher - 14-01-12
Oh dear oh dear someone been a little rattled! :'(
Mr Lumpy seems to be attacking my statement of "Because when heated as you say it goes soft and grips the plug threads which makes removal harder and can and does strip threads, plugs should never be removed when an engine is hot."
The statement is incorrect and should have read "it stays soft and grips the plug". Teach me to read things before hitting the button. :rolleyes But doesn't I feel warrant his responses the key to the whole subject is in the next sentence.
"You being an engineer will know steal and aluminium do strange things when put together one being they tend to seize if the isn't something between them e.g. plug threads have a lacquer on them for that very reason." Aluminium has a property which allows it to grip it's self and certain other metals when heated or stressed i.e. over tightened why because it's soft among other things. Apply enough stress/heat/pressure and the stuff almost bonds to other metals e.g. plug threads, when flat surfaces are involved it can act like its been spread into the surface bit like chocolate. Which is why fine threads are chosen (more on threads later) and manufactures lacquer or coat them. As also pointed out steel and aluminium expand at different temperatures they also contact and gain and loose heat at differing rates the steel plug will contract slower then aluminium head, the head will grip the plug more then it would if the engine was cold. If you have a plug in the head that's been over tightened, wet (oxidised), stripped of lacquer/coating or has crap in threads and you undo it while the engine is hot you WILL increase the risk of stripping the thread.
Mr Lumpy's comparisons of exhaust header nuts/studs and drain plugs to support his argument of not removing plugs on aluminium engines when hot is not apples for apples and it really clutching at straws matey. :2fingers Exhaust headers on most bikes are a stud and nut certainly is on the Fazer, the stud is torqued into the head at about 18Nm and the nut torqued to 10Nm BOTH are steel the extra torque holds the stud in there hardly a comparison. Drain plugs are usually about 10mm long ish going through the aluminium/alloy or in some cases magnesium (both harder then cylinder head aluminium) sump of about 3 - 5mm thick using a course thread said we'd get back to them. Your average plug in most Jap engines are 25mm ish long going into a soft aluminium head using a fine thread. The thread contact surface area on the sump plug compared to the plug is tiny, you also tend to have a bit of oil about to lub things, drain plugs in my experience are buggered due to over tightening or cross threading full stop! :foc
Fazerrider your comparison is also not right mate
you would have used one of two methods depending on what the issue was. Yamaha/Suzuki tend to put locking agent on their disc bolts and not all of them either just to catch you out :evil One method to break the adhesion is to apply gentle rapid heat to the bolt head ONLY this softens the locking agent allowing you to undo the bolt. The other method is to heat the local area around the bolt to expand the area releasing the threads assisting release, BOTH methods you only heat ONE part not like a plug/cylinder head where BOTH are heated. The other area I will take issue with is " If he also knew about copper grease he would know, although thermally resistant to a point, it is a major no no once the evaporables evaporate and it becomes a congealed mass. You can look that up on the internet too." There are two main types of anti seize grease that are in use one for heat and that used to stop oxidation i.e. water ingress. Most stuff sold as copperslip (trade name) or anti seize grease is the latter and when heated to anything like exhaust temperatures just burns off and provides no protection in can and does act like locking agent in these applications. Then there's proper copper grease designed to withstand exhaust temperatures, particles of copper suspended in a carrier the carrier burns off leaving the copper particles behind it doesn't turn into a congealed mass but a layer of copper! :finger
The last bit of your statement You can look that up on the internet too is the clue to your majority of you're knowledge fella. :z :z :z
I'm certainly not a fountain of all knowledge never will be and I'm always ready to listen to others, I share my experiences with others to help them should they want to use it is up to them.
Personally I feel people like you who hover around internet forums being rude and aggressive focusing on an error because a person has posted something incorrectly, got the wrong end of the stick or as in this case didn't edit things thoroughly. Then posting knee jerk derogatory comments supported by stuff they find off other forums or the internet and backed up by some claim to being an engineer for Ex amount of years etc etc, are quite frankly sad little bullies.
End of the day Mr Lumpy I don't give a toss what you think or what you're opinion is :finger others I'm sure will draw their own conclusions!
The end
Re: spark plugs - richfzs - 14-01-12
And if anybody wants to argue the toss with the brake doctor further, before you scoot off to google some more crap, take a look at this link. From the fellas at Haynes, who probably have a reasonable idea of what they're talking about. You'll see that next to Pic 2 they say
Quote:Do not attempt to remove spark plugs while the engine is hot - not only may you burn yourself, you could damage the cylinder head.
and next to pic 3B
Quote:Put a smear of copper grease on the threads of each new plug and screw them into their holes
Of course, I'm sure they're wrong too... :rolleyes :rolleyes
Re: spark plugs - richfzs - 14-01-12
And here's the link :lol
http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Feature_SparkPlugsView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001
Re: spark plugs - bikerboys - 14-01-12
:lol this is a good debate .
Re: spark plugs - Tefer - 14-01-12
(13-01-12, 07:08 PM)Lumpy link Wrote: [quote author=Major Rant link=topic=1349.msg9770#msg9770 date=1326475095]I would imagine the aluminium alloy is resistant to this precipitation heat treatment to a major degree, not daft these nips. The coefficient of thermal expansion was really the important on here but Mr KAFA seems to think the alloy gets soft at operating temperatures. If he also knew about copper grease he would know, although thermally resistant to a point, it is a major no no once the evaporables evaporate and it becomes a congealed mass. You can look that up on the internet too.
Quote:The ally isn't softer at 160 degress C than it is at 0 degrees C
Its properties certainly can change at 160C. I would say its more likely to fracture but not because its soft, more probably because its become grainy.
Google "preciptation heat treatment".
All you need to do to look clever is pretend to know more than the masses and in this case it appears to have worked.
I'm newbieish on here but well known in other places, some say regrettably, and one of my saying has, for years, been bad advice is worse than no advice. Poor old gnashipoos cannot have any substatiation to a lot of his arguments as there is nothing to substantiate them as they are wrong, some of them anyways, some have a modicum of actual information and truth though.
[/quote]
BikersOracle, i remebr some of your posts well in the ER5 & 6 Forum
Re: spark plugs - Lumpy - 14-01-12
Quote:BikersOracle, i remember some of your posts well in the ER5 & 6 Forumah yes, er, um yes :evil
been fun this one too.
Re: spark plugs - Lumpy - 14-01-12
Quote:Oh dear oh dear someone been a little rattled! :'(Cripes not me Mr Trumpet blower, better people have tried and failed :lol
Quote: Mr Lumpy's comparisons of exhaust header nuts/studs and drain plugs to support his argument of not removing plugs on aluminium engines when hot is not apples for apples and it really clutching at straws matey. :2fingersno, it was taking the piss actually :rollin
Re: spark plugs - Easy Rider 13 - 15-01-12
im sorry but you are all using far to bigger words for me to be reading at this time on a sunday morning, im sure he managed to get lots of useful advice from you all...... :rolleyes
The main one ive found is: dont ask for advice on stuck spark plugs..... :lol
just get a jackhammer..... or a good kick sometimes works... or better still.... get a garage to do it, if they mess it up they have to repair it
Haynes. - Lumpy - 15-01-12
Quote:And if anybody wants to argue the toss with the brake doctor further, before you scoot off to google some more crap, take a look at this link. From the fellas at Haynes, who probably have a reasonable idea of what they're talking about.
Of course, I'm sure they're wrong too... :rolleyes :rolleyes
Oh yes because nobody has ever questioned ANYTHING in a Haynes book of lies have they? :z :rollin
Re: spark plugs - richfzs - 15-01-12
(13-01-12, 09:42 PM)Bracechenko link Wrote: Lumpy - Right or wrong, you're a dick :moon
:agree
dick? - Lumpy - 15-01-12
Quote:Lumpy - Right or wrong, you're a dick :moonI can cope with that :lol as it's true. I can be helpful though, honestly............. :rolleyes