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+--- Thread: A fun ride... (/showthread.php?tid=56700)
Re: A fun ride... - mickdel - 13-12-11
(06-12-11, 02:20 AM)Grahamm link Wrote: [quote author=Tiberius Onklevaart link=topic=1048.msg7000#msg7000 date=1323016012]
I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread
I was just thinking that it suited you... :pokefun
[/quote]
It would have suited raymy boy more if it was rammed into his mouth :pokefun
Re: A fun ride... - bigralphie - 13-12-11
I don’t want to debate IAM as I am on record with my thoughts, but the biggest problem with it IMHO is it’s a STANDARD you can achieve and this means SOME members see this as a status.
I’ve rode with more IAM/Rospa than the average bear and most DSA based instructors are spot on ,but a FEW observers who only know their own system can be very dogmatic and again IMHO some of the things taught by IAM are just wrong (road positioning for corners for example ,great if you only doing an isolated corner very unhelpful if you doing a series of opposite direction bends) advanced training is there to give you a framework to ensure you stay safe or to revert to in stressful situations it’s not a set of rules to be observed unflinchingly.
That said training is better than no training but shop around
Improving riding - mickdel - 13-12-11
Personally, I think any opportunity to learn anything helpful to your riding should be taken up. You can take what you think is useful to you, and leave the rest.
I rode alone for quite a long time, and never got my little bandit over 7k. The day I started riding with a motley group who shared only two things in common, one being their love of motorcycles, I really improved. Compared to me, the boys and girls all had vastly more saddle time. The bikes ranged from a fireblade to a vmax, although the smallest cc bike was mine. My mistakes (safety critical) were pointed out to me, along with helpful suggestions about how I could improve. I found that there were a few riders (both sexes) whose riding skill sets I wanted to have. After six months, I felt confident to handle a bigger and faster bike.
Speed limits were usually exceeded outside 30 zones (30 limits were never exceeded). The routes were planned and reconnoitered by one member before their turn to lead the weekly sunday rideout, and always included some nice high speed(able) sections. If you weren't into riding at speed, there wasn't any pressure to. Regular waypoints meant nobody got left behind. The route usually included a place of interest, or was to and from a coastal town, as sitting on a beach, even in winter, was a great weekly distraction from London for a lot of us. Another group also operated in the northern region.
One thing I learnt from these people, was that if you let what you thought other people may think of you, stop you from doing anything in life, then your life was going to be limited in experience. I found the comments about meaningful looks amusing. How do you define what a look means? :pokefun
I thought the major advantage of taking an IAM test/training or similar was not mentioned, in that these groups can get you a discount on your insurance. No matter how you think they look at you :lol
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 13-12-11
(13-12-11, 03:28 AM)Aegis Bearing Mel link Wrote: [quote author=Grahamm link=topic=1048.msg7501#msg7501 date=1323717875]
So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???
(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")
For me you've just answered your own argument with your bracketed text.
It's the preaching aspect of it that puts me (and many others) off doing it, from RoSPA and the IAM both.
I'm all for people getting extra training, but to my mind unless it's DSA approved and regulated then it is exactly what you mentioned, just a group of blokes from down the pub sharing what they've picked up.[/quote]
For me, you've just demonstrated that you're a bloke pontificating on the forums without any clue about what he's talking about.
To quote from the IAM site:
Quote:The tests use the principles of advanced driving, pioneered and applied with great success by the Metropolitan Police, and are accredited by the Driving Standards Agency (DSA). All tests are taken by IAM Examiners who hold a Police Advanced Driving Certificate and have extensive experience working with Police Services throughout the UK.
Or do you think the IAM are lying?
Quote:Others go on it, think it makes them invincible and denounce all non-believers as fools.
Usually just before they redecorate a field with their fairing.
There are plenty of bikers who have redecorated the fields (or trees or cars or roadside furniture) with themselves because they think they're invincible *without* having taken any advanced training...
Quote:As a wise man once said to me, the best training you can get is putting the miles in on your machine.
Is it?
Someone who hasn't taken any other training other than passing their test might consider that the best way to take a right-hand bend is to get as close to the centre line and get their knee down. If they do it enough, they'll probably get very good at it.
The problem is that they're still in the "decapitation zone" and one day they'll do that on a blind corner, a lorry will come the other way, drift a bit wide and *splat*.
Practice is all well and good, but you have to be practicing the *RIGHT* things!
Quote:Through watching others you recognise what you're comfortable with, what is safe, what is sheer, unbridled madness (MOFF!!)and what works to keep people safe.
Sure, provided you don't kill yourself *before* you figure all that out...
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 13-12-11
(13-12-11, 10:30 AM)Phil TK link Wrote:Quote:the group simply does not have enough Observers to assign new Associates to!
I really hate to point this out, but this really means that not enough people feel inclined to go on and become an observer, it's probably the reason you don't have enough. I wonder why that is? eh.
Perhaps because some people don't want to, or because they're too busy, have too many other commitments, don't have the inclination, can't spare the time, feel they don't have the aptitude etc etc etc.
I've thought about doing it myself, but that's going to be a few years down the line yet.
Quote: I know someone who's a member of a RoSPA group and says that it's "struggling to survive" at the moment.
From what you're saying about the 'Mobile Display Unit' the IAM seems to be struggling too.
Err, WTF? How do you come to that conclusion based on the fact that the only reason they're not putting the MDU out there so much at the moment is that they can't handle the number of people who want to join??
The problem is "not enough Observers to do the training", not "not enough members".
Quote:There you are, a perfect reason to form a new organisation from Rospa and IAM and start afresh with no beards or Belstaff products allowed.
Fine, go ahead, you start it, get the funding, get charitable status, organise it, get it country-wide, publicise it and I'll happily join up!
Oh, sorry, you meant *someone else* should do this because you don't like the IAM and RoSPA...
Quote:Quote:So *WHO* exactly is putting people off joining the IAM and stopping people from getting the advanced training they could well do with...???
(Fortunately I'm willing to actually go out and *meet* these people and see what benefit I can get from joining them, rather than listen to the pontifications of "some bloke on the forums" who has as much credibility as "a bloke down the pub")
This is actually a good point,
Thank you.
Quote:but it's the IAM's problem to sort out and not anybody elses problem. Trouble is, I and a lot of lother people feel that you won't ever get past the negative image. If people on forums and blokes down the pub are undermining the credibility of the IAM and you can't reverse it, then the IAM will continue to wither on the vine. This is the UK remember, negative images stick, it's the way it is.
Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?
Or perhaps I'll just keep posting in threads like this one and hope that people who are interested in advanced training will be able to look past the slagging off and go out and meet up with one of these groups and see for themselves what benefits they can get from it...
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 13-12-11
(13-12-11, 11:44 AM)tomjimtom link Wrote: All we got were looks of distain from the people there, they obviously weren't ALL arrogant, but the ones that were definately made themselves heard.
[...]
It's a shame, because the majority of people there weren't stuck up, all the ones that my dad had contact with before were nice, friendly, helpful and encouraged him. but the few that decided they were better than him, me and the rest of the world ruined it.
I'm sorry to hear that. Of course there are always going to be dickheads in any group (even on forums!) who think they're "better than thou" because of [insert specious reasoning here], the trick is not to let them get to you.
In any case, even though he's not a member any more, he'll still have the benefit of the training and I hope you have too
Quote:Oh, I haven't mentioned the words beard or FJR, because my dad had both!! :lol
But did he have them *before* joining the IAM or after?
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 13-12-11
(13-12-11, 04:43 PM)bigralphie link Wrote: a FEW observers who only know their own system can be very dogmatic
I won't deny that, doing it "by the book" is all very well, but even the book says that the System it teaches should be applied flexibly rather than dogmatically.
Quote:and again IMHO some of the things taught by IAM are just wrong (road positioning for corners for example ,great if you only doing an isolated corner very unhelpful if you doing a series of opposite direction bends)
I'm puzzled by this, I'd like to know what you mean here.
Quote:That said training is better than no training but shop around
I agree entirely.
Re: A fun ride... - ghostbiker - 13-12-11
I did IAM's 2 years back now and for the training part enjoyed every min of it and got a lot from it.... i also left a some of it alone. i took from it what i found relevent to me and helpfull to me (which was most of it to be honest)
But the social side i found as others have said, very clossed and pompus i'm better than you attitude. but then i took it to improve my riding and not for the social side so this wasnt a big deal realy.
I would highly recomend extra training, rospa, iams, ride to arrive.... it dosent matter. anything that makes you "think" about the actions you take on the road is a good thing.
Am I better than some one that didnt take IAM's? foc no! every rider is diff and what they want from thier ride is diff. am i a better ridder now than before the training for how i ride? yes. but far from invinceable lol i still make mistakes, i still have "moments" and i still think affter doing something like that "ok your a tool, pay attention"
Re: A fun ride... - Aegis Bearing Mel - 14-12-11
Not pontificating, merely saying that it's the holier than thou attitude that puts myself and many others off.
My personal feeling is that as a charity of volunteers it won't carry as much clout for me as advanced instruction from DSA certified instructors will as the quality assurance procedures won't be as robust.
As for the point about knee down, fairly certain that isn't one of the approved procedures required for test, whereas machine control and correct positioning are.
If someone wants to get their knee down on the road, they will attempt it irrespective of any training, advanced or otherwise.
To step up onto the pontification step now, I believe mindset and experience are the key points here.
The IAM give you the ability to tap the experience of others, as well as providing the chance to gain experience.
Back to the putting miles in thing.
Re: A fun ride... - bigralphie - 14-12-11
Graham
the corner thing
During the war.....err no while I was training for my Cardington test with a ex copper DSA instructor , a IAM instructor with tagging along one day
The IAM guy was trying to pick me for poor road position (the ex cooper didn’t have a problem with me and walked off with his brew smiling) because I was not doggedly moving left for a right corner /right for a left corner etc.
What he could not take on board was these were shallow chicanes and not full corners so the better position was to go apex to apex as that allowed better vision but he just kept saying “well that’s not how we are taught “ rather than seeing if I might have something and trying my way before condemning it.
Its this mind set which just pushes my buttons lol
Re: A fun ride... - Phil TK - 14-12-11
(13-12-11, 10:49 PM)Grahamm link Wrote: Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?
Oh dear. Not quite the improvement in public relations I was hoping for.
Re: A fun ride... - Tiberius Onklevaart - 14-12-11
(13-12-11, 12:04 PM)mickdel link Wrote: [quote author=Grahamm link=topic=1048.msg7090#msg7090 date=1323134408]
[quote author=Tiberius Onklevaart link=topic=1048.msg7000#msg7000 date=1323016012]
I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread
I was just thinking that it suited you... :pokefun
[/quote]
It would have suited raymy boy more if it was rammed into his mouth :pokefun
[/quote]
Aw aye eh?
On the whiskey much?
Don't see how stuffing a towel in my gob stops me typing
Re: A fun ride... - BIG MAC - 14-12-11
You got voice recognition software Raymy...flash twat x
Re: A fun ride... - Tiberius Onklevaart - 15-12-11
Trev, we all know that voice recognition saftware disnae work wi a shire accent
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 15-12-11
(14-12-11, 01:35 AM)Aegis Bearing Mel link Wrote: as a charity of volunteers it won't carry as much clout for me as advanced instruction from DSA certified instructors will as the quality assurance procedures won't be as robust.
To become an Observer you first of all have to be able to ride to a high standard, then you have to show that you can you can demonstrate that standard to an Associate. Remember, also, that an Observer is exactly that, they're not an Instructor nor are they expected to be.
As for "quality assurance", when I was doing my Direct Access, my Instructor had a visit from a DSA Inspector and got picked up for 1) His tax disc was on the left side of the fairing/ screen rather than down by the rear wheel 2) He was instructing on the bike he had his side lights on instead of the headlight (the side-lights on his BMW were bright enough to make him clearly visible) and 3) when he wasn't on the bike, he was wearing sandals instead of bike boots (because he didn't want to wear out the soles on an expensive pair of boots which aren't designed for lots of walking around)!
So not much wrong there with his instruction...!!
Quote:To step up onto the pontification step now, I believe mindset and experience are the key points here.
The IAM give you the ability to tap the experience of others, as well as providing the chance to gain experience.
Back to the putting miles in thing.
As I said, practicing the *right* things. There's nothing the IAM or anyone else can do to *stop* you trying to get your knee down if you want, but at least they can show you what you should be doing. Whether you choose to do it or not is your own business.
(Oh, and I've put in more miles in the last year or so since I joined the IAM and have been practicing for the test and going on ride-outs with them than I'd done in the previous three years!
)
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 15-12-11
(14-12-11, 05:36 PM)bigralphie link Wrote: The IAM guy was trying to pick me for poor road position (the ex cooper didn’t have a problem with me and walked off with his brew smiling) because I was not doggedly moving left for a right corner /right for a left corner etc.
What he could not take on board was these were shallow chicanes and not full corners so the better position was to go apex to apex as that allowed better vision but he just kept saying “well that’s not how we are taught “ rather than seeing if I might have something and trying my way before condemning it.
Its this mind set which just pushes my buttons lol
Hmm, well I've been told that if if you can see clearly through the corner (assuming there's no hidden "dead ground" where a vehicle might emerge from) then by all means feel free to "straighten the bends".
There's a series of "bends" on the Morestead Road down here which, if you get your position right at the start, you can virtually take a straight line through
Some IAM Observers are more anal than others, true, the one I have now is much more "f**k it, remember the book is only guidelines, if it's safe, do it!"
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 15-12-11
(14-12-11, 09:35 PM)Phil TK link Wrote: [quote author=Grahamm link=topic=1048.msg7605#msg7605 date=1323812981]
Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?
Oh dear. Not quite the improvement in public relations I was hoping for.[/quote]
Err, would you like to buy a new Irony Detector? Yours seems to be broken... :pokefun
Re: A fun ride... - ReNcE - 17-12-11
On the subject of advanced riding, somebody told me that you can corner faster, and smoother by pushing the bars in the opposite direction - I thought he was getting confused with opposite lock in sliding cars etc, but he swore it was true for bikes, I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?
Re: A fun ride... - ghostbiker - 18-12-11
(17-12-11, 10:04 PM)ReNcE link Wrote: Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?
I seen the way you ride, you will end up in a field...........
camping with the rest of us at the BMF
Re: A fun ride... - Grahamm - 18-12-11
(17-12-11, 10:04 PM)ReNcE link Wrote: I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?
If you're steering a counter, you're probably going to end up in a shop! :b