[SOLVED] Diagnose my starter problem please

[SOLVED] Diagnose my starter problem please - Printable Version

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[SOLVED] Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 24-07-14

When I press the engine start start I hear a click but no turnover. A few presses and then the engine spins and ignition, fine. The number of presses required is random. This only started happening this morning.

What happens:
1. I notice the Datatool DiGi does not illuminate - it used to.
2. Battery light on instrument panel does not illuminate - should it?
3. Neutral light illuminates.
4. Headlights, Rear lights, and signals work.
5. Once started the engine runs fine.
6. Horn works fine.
7. Spark plugs recently fitted - a week ago.
8. No fuses blown

???

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - richfzs - 24-07-14

Just one click, or multiple? If multiple, check your battery connections are good and tight.

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - darrsi - 24-07-14

Does sound like a low battery issue to me, i'd be inclined to try giving it a good charge.
And if you've got a meter see what it reads when switched off (and when running) and see if it's within the acceptable limits.

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - richfzs - 24-07-14

It's not a battery charge issue - if it were that, it wouldn't suddenly decide to wake up and spin the motor ok

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - Paulfzs - 24-07-14

sounds like you have a defective brush, the first few clicks just moves it out of the way enough for it to make a full spin thus starting it.

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 24-07-14

It is not a battery issue; Amps and Volts are fine and the lights are fine. The engine wouldnt fire up or turn if the battery were dud. But I'm unsure how to test further so I have downloaded the manuals from the Download section (cheers foccers)

I will test tonight but to answer some questions back to me (thanks)...

1. One click each time I press the starter
2. Random number of clicks needed to fire up, but usually no more than 5 (although it was 1 or 2 this morning)

Leaning toward a starter motor issue; haynes manual has breakdown of tests and components in the motor but is it not simpler to change the whole motor? Neither Haynes nor Yam manuals are clear as to where the starter motor is and how to remove it. any diags anyone?

thanks

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - Fazerider - 24-07-14

(24-07-14, 02:19 PM)keratos link Wrote: Neither Haynes nor Yam manuals are clear as to where the starter motor is and how to remove it. any diags anyone?

It's the black cylindrical thing bolted to the top of the gearbox just behind the cylinders. Access from the left, only two bolts to undo and it'll slide out once you've given it a thump from the rhs to loosen it.

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - Paulfzs - 24-07-14

when you go to start it, hit the starter motor with a RUBBER mallet, not metal youll break it and not too hard but a decent wack, if it starts then new motor/brushes needed.

changing or fixing depends on if you can get hold of one for cheap or replace the brushes which it will likely be

brushes: http://yambits.co.uk/fzs600-fazer-starter-motor-brush-p-45752.html

as above, cylindrical item above the gearbox

[Image: RvLgebT.jpg]

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - darrsi - 24-07-14

Plenty of motors on Ebay if needed for 30 odd quid.

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - clayt74 - 24-07-14

I would start with the simplistic thing first and ensure that the contacts in the starter button are clean n corrosion free?

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - Ebme Geek - 24-07-14

Check you are getting 12 volts on the terminal on the starter motor, if you are not but the relay is clicking, it's either the relay or a bad connection, if you are getting 12v then there is no point looking further back, it's the motor

If its the motor,
Might be worth checking that the brushes are not sticking, one of mine was and I think a clean would have sorted it, but I had already got the kit from bay-of-E [img alt=:rolleyes]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/img] Link to my old post http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6858.msg65689.html#msg65689

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 24-07-14

Rite,. Here is the so far....

Hotwire starter trrminal to battery, motor turns fine

Hotwire to starter relay output, fine

Check run switch continuity , fine. But I could always hear the relay click when I switch on the run switch

Still clicks when using starter switch...

Check continuity of starter relay when switch pressed, fine

Check voltage across starter relay, fine

Check loom at starter relay, fine, power and continuity ok

Check starter cutoff relay according to manual using multimeter connected to various terminals of the relay, fine

Check loom connector to starter cutoff relay according to manual, fine

Clicks. Arggggg

Check neutral switch continuity, OK

Click . grrrrrrrr

Take off all loom connectors in start circuit and spray with contact cleaner... Lots. Let drip n dry. Spray all relay terminals too.

press start switch and expect click, but,...START, TURN, IGNITION FIRE. Running, so far....VOILA

Problem was always intermittent but got worse to the point that 9 out of 10 starts failed. so i will leave and run for a few days and report back... I know it's just going to come back though!!

Only thing I didn't check was main switch but I get all instruments and relays on so this must be fine

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 24-07-14

(24-07-14, 05:39 PM)clayt74 link Wrote: I would start with the simplistic thing first and ensure that the contacts in the starter button are clean n corrosion free?

Now if I had done this first I could have saved time, money (I went and bought a multimeter at £60) and enjoyed a rideout in the late afternoon sunshine.
good advice from you

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 24-07-14

(24-07-14, 03:50 PM)Paulfzs link Wrote: when you go to start it, hit the starter motor with a RUBBER mallet, not metal youll break it and not too hard but a decent wack, if it starts then new motor/brushes needed.

......

thanks for this, alas 'twas not the brushes as the motor spins fine when hotwired to the battery (using a jump lead of course!!)

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - unfazed - 25-07-14

Change the starter relay

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 26-07-14

(25-07-14, 08:14 PM)unfazed link Wrote: Change the starter relay

read above

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 26-07-14

Still going good. Maybe it was the contacts/looms dirty after all

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 26-07-14

Done it again. Damm it. Just click of the start relay but no motor action

I've tested the motor via hotwire and starter plus cutout relays according to the shop manual

Neutral switch is fine as the mutual neutral light comes on. Handlebar run switch is fine as I can hear the starter relay power but not activate until I press the start switch then I hear clunks but no motor. I've tested the sidestsnd switch. Sometimes if I just holds the start switch then after 5,10,30 seconds the starter motor comes alive.

Trouble is that the problem is highly intermittent. So when I'm testing it could be when the problem is not manifesting so I'm getting a false positive.
What the hell is it?

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - Fazerider - 26-07-14

How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.

Re: Diagnose my starter problem please - keratos - 26-07-14

(26-07-14, 02:01 PM)Fazerider link Wrote: How did you determine that the starter relay was fine? If it was by using the continuity range on a multimeter that could give a misleading result. The meter only passes about ten milliamps to measure the contact, the starter is trying to take several thousand times as much current, a few tenths of an ohm can be enough to stop it yet a meter will see good continuity.
Try measuring the voltage between the output of the starter relay and the battery negative.
If you get 12v (nominal) and the motor doesn't spin then you've an (intermittent) connection between the relay and starter or between starter and earth. If you get a lower voltage and the starter doesn't spin, it's probably contamination of the relay contacts.

I did both. Continuity and volts. All OK. The meter is a ut71 , £150.
You forgot to mention the starter cut off relay. I tested this too but it's a complicated box so often the best way is to swap it out and see. I may do this. It's definitive not the starter relay or the motor or the main switch or the run switch or the neutral switch. I can't think what else it might be