Date: 12-11-25  Time: 11:53 am

Author Topic: whose fault ? opinions ?  (Read 10917 times)

Farjo

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #25 on: 29 June 2013, 05:50:41 am »
From the video:
"If you want to know, her punishment was £130 driving lesson, no points nothing. Basically she has got away with it."

Driving is a licence to kill :\

Andy FZS

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #26 on: 29 June 2013, 08:10:42 am »
I witnessed a similar accident a few weeks ago. Waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic an oncoming car stopped and waived the car in front of me across straight into the path of another car in the inside lane. ...bang..as I was higher up I saw the car coming but the people in front and the moving on coming car saw each other too late.

Slaninar

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #27 on: 29 June 2013, 08:22:09 am »
The fact that the video states it's a pub car park suggests the rider is familiar with that road, and maybe should have accounted for that junction being there (and the possibility of traffic).


Agree with most other things you wrote, but this is faulty logic: rider fell and had more than enough time to see what's around him. The fact he knew it was a pub parking doesn't tell anything about the time he came to that piece of information.    ...I know, I know...


Phil

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #28 on: 29 June 2013, 08:34:18 am »
I witnessed a similar accident a few weeks ago. Waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic an oncoming car stopped and waived the car in front of me across straight into the path of another car in the inside lane. ...bang..as I was higher up I saw the car coming but the people in front and the moving on coming car saw each other too late.

I saw something similar along those lines recently. I was filtering past a queue of traffic at some lights and got up to where a road joined from the left with traffic emerging so stopped. The lights had changed ahead so the traffic ahead started moving, except for the car in front as she waved 1 car onto the road, which turned left so was also heading the same way as us. She also waved the next. It didnt move, presumably as the driver was unsighted.  She waved harder. The car pulled out but turned right, into the path of an oncoming bus  :eek .    Luckily the driver saw the bus at the last second and stopped. The bus drivers face was a picture.



Lawrence

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #29 on: 29 June 2013, 10:16:33 am »
It's also a busy road and quite possibly difficult for a driver to see over the top of the traffic that is there, however hard she looked - the rider should have accounted for that.
So because you can't see well you just drive out?  She should've edged out slowly til she could see it was clear.

Grahamm

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #30 on: 29 June 2013, 12:32:00 pm »
It's also a busy road and quite possibly difficult for a driver to see over the top of the traffic that is there, however hard she looked - the rider should have accounted for that.
So because you can't see well you just drive out?  She should've edged out slowly til she could see it was clear.
I witnessed a similar accident a few weeks ago. Waiting to turn right across oncoming traffic an oncoming car stopped and waived the car in front of me across straight into the path of another car in the inside lane. ...bang..as I was higher up I saw the car coming but the people in front and the moving on coming car saw each other too late.

Highway Code Paragraph 104

Quote
You should also

*  watch out for signals given by other road users and proceed only when you are satisfied that it is safe

If someone waves you out or flashes their lights or whatever, it does *not* mean the way is clear and you have priority over anything else!

Jacko

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #31 on: 29 June 2013, 04:03:58 pm »
She probably looked but didn't see him. Not many people don't actually look.

should have expected it more with the standing traffic., it looks like a keep clear written on road so traffic
emerging there will be common.
If he hadn't dropped it may have had other options, again easy to say watching back.
Surprised she got done at all as he crashed on his own, hard to say what might have happened if he stayed on.

sadlonelygit

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #32 on: 29 June 2013, 04:38:22 pm »
the rider had 3 seconds from the vehicle appearing to 'i can see my house from here'.
the rider actually continued to accelerate and change up in that time.
it would be interesting to know what bike it was as 6k in second on a modern bike is a damn site more than 30 iykwim.
poor obs on both counts and over compensation/panic from the bike rider.

Lawrence

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #33 on: 29 June 2013, 08:46:51 pm »
She probably looked but didn't see him. Not many people don't actually look.
Rubbish.  I reckon I have at least one a day who pull out/change lane/U turn without looking.
 
Either way, just because someone looks doesn't mean they're paying attention.  I've had someone look straight at me (I saw him do it) then pull out right in front of me.  I was in a Land Rover Discovery at the time, bit harder to miss than a bike.

Andy FZS

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #34 on: 29 June 2013, 08:49:30 pm »
You brake to hard and lock up, you don't brake hard enough you hit the car, just the right amount is often down to luck. Some times you get away with it sometimes you don't.  Bad luck this time.

caretaker

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #35 on: 29 June 2013, 09:48:03 pm »
100% bike. i come across situations like that on almost a daily basis. i havent had an accident for many years (jinxed it now though!!). car drivers either dont see you or havent looked etc.  either way, you have to ride defensively (that doesnt mean sticking your middle finger up at the offending driver) and that rider wasnt. he was way too fast for the conditions and panicked, as the revs build up briefly as he goes down. lesson learnt, i'd say.

Slaninar

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #36 on: 29 June 2013, 09:50:37 pm »
You brake to hard and lock up, you don't brake hard enough you hit the car, just the right amount is often down to luck. Some times you get away with it sometimes you don't.  Bad luck this time.

I'd rather not brake hard enough and hit the car upright. Fly over the car. Roll. It has worked fine - three times on a bicycle, once on a motorcycle.

Slow down as much as I feel it's possible without risking front wheel skid. Then hold the bars tight to roll over them, not hit your head. Balls can slap painfully on the tank though.  :)

Hedgetrimmer

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #37 on: 29 June 2013, 09:57:38 pm »
Except you don't know where you'll end up or what you'll hit when you land. Had it happen to me once. Did a perfect somersault over the bars and landed on my back on a hedge - like landing on a feather mattress! Not a scratch. Could've hit a lamp post or something though which wouldn't have been so funny.

Slaninar

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #38 on: 29 June 2013, 10:02:43 pm »
Except you don't know where you'll end up or what you'll hit when you land. Had it happen to me once. Did a perfect somersault over the bars and landed on my back on a hedge - like landing on a feather mattress! Not a scratch. Could've hit a lamp post or something though which wouldn't have been so funny.

It's better than front wheel skid and goind down under a car. At least I believe so.  Slow down as much as possible and then let your luck be tested. :)

unfazed

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #39 on: 30 June 2013, 02:13:52 am »
50/50, but rider seems to have got licky
Watching the video you can see the car starting to pull when the rider is well over 5 car lengths away, but judging by the engine sound rider makes no effort to slow or brake until about 2 car lengths and by then the car is fully out.
Lack of observation from both parties seems to have been the root cause.
 

ChristoT

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #40 on: 30 June 2013, 11:55:45 pm »
No wonder you've been techey today after such a traumatic incident!! Glad you're ok, hope your nerves are ok too.

Ride safe!

AdieR

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #41 on: 01 July 2013, 05:01:21 am »
Lawrence:

"So because you can't see well you just drive out?  She should've edged out slowly til she could see it was clear." 
The point I were making here was that even if she had crept forward to look, IMO the rider had no chance of seeing her either until the car was half-way out (therefore possibly causing him to swerve to avoid her anyhow), and thus the rider could have done with less acceleration than he was using, to give him time to think through the likely risks.

There always seems to be an assumption in these kind of bike accidents that the biker is *never* to blame, which I think is potentially dangerous.
IMO, every accident or near miss (regardless of whose error it was) should be an opportunity to think through ways to avoid a repeat (ie, "Was that avoidable? What could I have done differently?" etc).

I'm not saying that it'll magically stop dozy drivers from flattening a biker (some drivers really ought to get a guide dog and let the dog drive instead), but it might just help mitigate some of the risks, bearing in mind the inherent vulnerability we face on bikes.

Saying "it's someone else's fault" from a hospital bed with smashed-up bones, a smashed-up bike and possibly weeks off work with no income isn't particularly comforting.

One piece of advice I got from a mate at work a few years back (and which has stuck with me): "It isn't wet roads, or diesel spills, or dozy drivers that are a problem, it's not knowing how to deal with them that's a problem".



Dead Eye

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #42 on: 01 July 2013, 09:07:09 am »
No wonder you've been techey today after such a traumatic incident!! Glad you're ok, hope your nerves are ok too.

Ride safe!

Just so that simonm doesn't blow a blood vessel - IT WASN'T HIM!

It was just a video he found and he was asking for peoples opinions...

Don't worry si, I got your back ;)

Lawrence

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #43 on: 01 July 2013, 10:26:04 am »
There always seems to be an assumption in these kind of bike accidents that the biker is *never* to blame, which I think is potentially dangerous.
IMO, every accident or near miss (regardless of whose error it was) should be an opportunity to think through ways to avoid a repeat (ie, "Was that avoidable? What could I have done differently?" etc).

I'm not saying that it'll magically stop dozy drivers from flattening a biker (some drivers really ought to get a guide dog and let the dog drive instead), but it might just help mitigate some of the risks, bearing in mind the inherent vulnerability we face on bikes.
Agreed, accidents will always be avoidable and it's just a case of putting yourself in a position where you can see what's going on properly.

Hedgetrimmer

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #44 on: 01 July 2013, 08:35:08 pm »
There always seems to be an assumption in these kind of bike accidents that the biker is *never* to blame, which I think is potentially dangerous.
IMO, every accident or near miss (regardless of whose error it was) should be an opportunity to think through ways to avoid a repeat (ie, "Was that avoidable? What could I have done differently?" etc).

I'm not saying that it'll magically stop dozy drivers from flattening a biker (some drivers really ought to get a guide dog and let the dog drive instead), but it might just help mitigate some of the risks, bearing in mind the inherent vulnerability we face on bikes.
Agreed, accidents will always be avoidable and it's just a case of putting yourself in a position where you can see what's going on properly.
I don't think accidents are always avoidable. Human error is a very common trait among us, and even if you do everything right, there's still a risk. So it has to be about risk reduction. I've been very reluctant to comment on this video, as we are seeing it from a camera-eye point of view, a picture only. The human senses (usually) pick up so much more than what a camera sees, and even the people involved may not remember it the same way. Soldiers who have been in live combat situations together will remember things, and indeed experience things, quite differently to each other, though they may have been only yards apart when events unfolded. I believe a similar process takes place in events such as this accident. Everybody's perceptions are different. And you may say " the camera doesn't lie" - well, maybe not, but it doesn't "see" everything either. In court, you can bet the two sides would not rely purely on the camera evidence, and with good reason.

rayburn600

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #45 on: 01 July 2013, 09:03:52 pm »
I wonder if the biker had his Headlights on..............?
 
Just lately I have started to flash my lights & point to the front faring at other bikers who don't have them on.

Andy FZS

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #46 on: 01 July 2013, 09:26:05 pm »
I'm always careful about flashing my lights as people often take this as a sign to pull out in front of you. .........

Hedgetrimmer

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #47 on: 01 July 2013, 09:27:00 pm »
Another unnecessary distraction too...
Bearing in mind that flashing lights/horn are only supposed to be used to let others know you are there.

Phil

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #48 on: 01 July 2013, 10:09:18 pm »
So what do we reckon the bike was. I'm guessing an older Honda 600 Hornet with the high level pipe.
My Fazer8 has 50mph on the clock @ 6,000rpm (47mph-ish realworld) , so would guess that bike would be doing less.

noggythenog

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Re: whose fault ? opinions ?
« Reply #49 on: 01 July 2013, 10:15:44 pm »
Ok im gonna fess up here, i dont put my lights on any more.I understand why people do but then again i feel personally that the fazer lights are so crap in the dark that it's nigh on pointless to expect them to stand out in the day.Plus i want my battery to get the best charge it can get whilst out and about.
Without having them on i dont have that safety blanket of thinking someone will see them so i act appropriately & expect nobody to see me.I only do sunny weather country road stuff though so i suppose if it was overcast or raining & i was in the city then i probably would put them on.