Front forks - Rebuild

[kevcl15]

Hi all,
Stripped the forks off the Fazer tonight as one of the seals is leaking.
So, question is, how difficult are the forks to strip, clean, change seals and rebuild? I have Ohlins springs to go back in (been sat in the box for about 3 yrs now as just not had the time to sort out previously! ), I've never stripped a fork before in my life but I'm reasonably handy with a spanner.
I've been looking around at firms that do fork servicing, and quite like the look of these as they do fork re-chroming as part of the "service" (there are some minor marks on the stanchions, but nothing major), but have no idea if the price is competitive or not? http://www.pittedforks.co.uk/price.php
Or, can anyone recommend someone for this type of service? I know a lot of you guys recommend the KTECH revalve/rebuild, but not really within my budget at the moment.
Any info/advice gratefully received.
Many thanks.
Kev CL

[tomlinscote]

I have done this job on the CB500 forks but never on the fazer, I found that the CB500 forks were quite easy to strip clean and rebuild so would not have thought the fazer ones were much different but they do have adjusters so may be more complicated. I am sure someone who has done this job will be along soon to give you more helpful advice

[AyJay]

As far as stripping the forks goes, it's not difficult at all except for one thing - getting the bolt out of the bottom of the forks. It's in there good an proper and I had to ask the dealer to loosen it for me with their windy allen key. The first time I did it, I slipped some Ohlins springs in there, but they didn't make a massive amount of difference. I think I should have gone a few lb's heavier.


I've used Philpotts (pitted forks.co.uk is just their website) when the seals blew and I found a large pit in the middle of the wear surface and although they came back with a less mirror finish, it's lasted much much better than standard. The factory finish is for show and very thin I reckon, because after 6 years there's no pitting or rust at all, and that includes 5 proper salty winters too. So, Philipotts get a recommendation from me.


I just dropped the forks off and they disassembled and re-chromed them for £120. I think. It was a while ago. There was an article in Practical Sportsbikes about them under their 'Without whom' series and the amount of work that goes into re-chroming is quite extensive so pretty damn good value.

[Falcon 269]

This is a really useful thread: http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67950&highlight=fork+overhaul

Photos start on page 3 but take it from the top to get the full advice on offer.  Covers special tools required (which you can make yourself) and the replacement of bushes, seals and - in this case - valves, to improve damping performance.

Work in a clean environment 'cos a small bit of crud can affect damping valve operation.  Do one leg at a time to avoid mixing parts.

[kevcl15]

Gents,
 
As always, many thnaks for the responses.
 
Mike, I'll take a look at the link and go from there. If nothing else, if I manage to get them stripped and them send them away to Philpotts I'll save a hnudred notes on the labour charges (enough to get the lowers powder coated!  )
If all else faails, I can always box them and sned them off to someone who whos about these things!
Finally, one "other" question, fork oil! Loads of discussion on here about the "weight", but what about make?? Any recommendations?
 
Again, thanks all.
 
Kev

[kevcl15]

Ok,
 
Stage one complete, the strip down has started!
Springs out, forks suspended upside down to let the skanky oil drain out, parts given a quick wipe down.
Couldn't get the bottom cartridge bolt out, reading the Haynes manual and some of the threads, looks like I'll have to Heath Robinson a socket on to some pipe somewhere along the line to hold the cartridge while I undo the bolt. Haynes manual mentions a Yam part no 90890-01447, anyone actually tried to get hold of one?
Reading the thread Mike recommended, they changed the valves also, anyone gone down this route themselves and any recommendations on the kit to get? Reading the thread, sounds reasonably simple if you have a) patience and b) more patience! 
Ok, last question, best place to get seals from?? And no, Antarctica isn't the answer I'm looking for!
Thanks again chaps.
 
Kev
 
 
 

[AyJay]

Bottom cartridge bolt? Ha. Wot a surprise. They are buggers! I rounded mine off last time I had them apart. That's why I suggested letting a dealer with an airgun whip it out for you. .... er, the bolt that is.


Fun working on your own bike though, isn't it? When it all goes back together with a bit of TLC, it's makes the whole ownership proposition that much more satisfying. Wish I could tell you about the cartridge upgrades. Love to get mine done, but money prevents that at the mo.


Last strip down, I went a bit weird and instead of the usual lighter oil that everyone recommends, I went to 10weight. Now this sounds a bit daft, but after 100,000 miles, I'm pretty sure everything in there is very worn and slack. And the result is that I could back off the compression damping which has reduced the kick off the bumps and the fork dive is more controlled. I'm sure I've gone about this the wrong way, but it's a definite improvement on what it was previously.

[kevcl15]

Hi Ayjay,
 
No problem getting at the bolt and it turns easy enough, it's just that the certridge inside is turning with the bolt! Fair play, the manufacturers dont miss a trick do they, surely it wouldn't have been that difficult to have the cartridge "fixed" internally in some way to stop the cartridge turning?? Still, keeps you on your toes I suppose.
 
Will try to lash something up before heading to the dealers or the local spanner shop, ex military (and still in the TA) so a stubborn bast**d who won't give up too easily! Reading the FZ1OA thread, it seems you can lash something together fairly easily, after all it's only to stop the cartridge from turning. Besides, I like swearing! 
Appears I misread the Philpotts pricing guide, built as opposed to stripped prices are for the stantion re-chroming and not for the fork servicing so makes no odds really. The uppers aren't really bad enough to justify having a rechrome at this point so will probably go down a different track. Plus I had an e-mail back from them yesterday and it'll take about 5 weeks to turn around (with powder coating the lowers), don't really want to wait that long.
Having read other posts on the FZ1OA site, I am sorely tempted to bite the bullet and have a complete revalve done while the bikes "out of action", seems K-Tech would be the way to go for this? Agian, doing a bit of reading/investigation, Brooks Suspension are an official K-Tech technical centre, cost is £500 all in, anyone used these before?  http://www.brooksuspension.co.uk/fork-internals/k-tech/yamaha/yamaha-fzs1000-fazer-k-tech-20ssk-fork-piston-kit-01-05.html
 
Anyway folks, time to "get on with it", keep you all posted.
 
Cheers again.
 
Kev

[AyJay]

Hey Kev. Yup. As you've found, the bolt turns easily at the mo, but it won't when you stop the cartridge from moving..... but you'l sort it, I'm sure.

I emailed ktech ages ago and got this back


For your forks I would recommend one of our 20SSK piston kits, these comprise of complete new compression and rebound piston assemblies with our own design CNC machined piston's, this piston kit is designed for road and track day use to enhance the damping efficiency of the standard fork and give greater confidence to the rider. The cost of the piston kit is £191.66 + VAT.
 
Depending on the weight of the rider and the O.E. fitment we also offer optional rate fork springs to suit rider weight and the discipline the bike is being used for. The price of these optional rate replacement fork springs are £70.84 per pair + VAT.
 
To fit all of the above we charge £100.00 + VAT this includes a complete strip and rebuild of the forks including new oil  but does not include any service parts needed such as seals or bushes. These would be inspected when are forks were dismantled and replaced and charged for accordingly."
 

Maxton said this:


The forks on the Fazer 1000 are a very good pair of forks for general road use but do have problems. The springs are too soft which can cause the forks to bottom out under heavy breaking, this depends on your rider weight and again how hard you ride the bike, the big problem is they do not have enough rebound damping, which makes the forks spring back very quickly when you let go of the brake or accelerate, this causes the bike to run wide out of corners and makes the bike difficult to turn in to a corner. The forks also have too much compression damping which makes the bike kick off small bumps in the road. This problem can make the ride uncomfortable. We modify the forks fitting harder springs to suit the type of riding you do and also your rider weight, we also revalve the cartridges increasing the rebound damping and reducing the compression damping. We replace the existing hydraulic bump stops with spring bump stops, which eliminates the severe patter that occurs when the forks bottom out, this also gives the rider more; feel mid-corner when pushing the front end. The fork conversion costs £315.00 plus worn parts: Seals £25 and Bushes £25. (ALL PRICES EXCLUSIVE OF V.A.T).
We have also found a problem with the internal damper cartridge wearing out on Fazer 1000 forks. We have had forks that have only done 5000 miles with worn cartridge tubes. Unfortunately Yamaha will not sell just the cartridge tube, you have to buy the complete damping assembly, which is very expensive. We machine new cartridge tubes (only as part of a Maxton conversion) manufactured from hydraulic steel tube, which will never wear out. The replacement cartridge tubes cost £100.00 plus V.A.T per pair. If the tubes are not replaced there will be never be any damping in the worn area of the cartridge tube."

Charming eh? Both very non-cheap upgrades. You pays yer money and takes your choice...

Note that bit about the lack of rebound damping - this is why I went to 10 weight fork oil. It's more controlled entering a bend and to compensate for the strong compression, I backed that right off to about 2 clicks. Not perfect by any means, but better than standard. And free!


The worrying bit is what Maxton say about worn tubes. I really don't know what to say about that because K-Tech don't mention it.

[kevcl15]

Hi all,
 
Another update.
 
The forks are stripped!! A bit of tube, a 26mm socket and some insulation tape (green and yellow, looks racier than black or red!) and the troublesome bottom bolt has been removed. See the attached photo, although I have patented the design! 
The rest is pretty much a doddle, although actually getting the retaining clip out was a bit of a bind! A quick wipe down and it's pretty obvious that the bushes are shot, tops one shinier than a shiny thing on shiny day! So, they've got to be replaced.
So, now it's decision time.......
Option 1:
I've also been in contact with KTech today, they're quoting £399 plus vat (about £474 all in) for the SSK kit and replacement spring fitted. Can't remember if the e-mail said the service parts would be on top of that or not. I did ask about squaddie discount and they will do something, but don't know what yet, the guy I've been in contact with is on leave now until next Wednesday. But any discount's got to be a good thing eh!
Also e-mailed Brooks Suspension but haven't heard anything back. Their website does say £499 for the SSK kit, including spring, which is more than KTech are quoting anyway.
Option 2:
Buy the SSK kit and "fit" it myself. Demon Tweaks sell the kits for £230. From the FZ1OA thread, if it's like the fitting of the Gold Valve kit, it's nothing too onerous, but there's always the chance of f**king something up and ruining the whole shooting match. Interesting question, would the damper kit be compatible with the Ohlins springs I have?
Option 3:
Replace the bushes, seals and fit the Ohlins springs I have, with new fork oil. Obviously the cheapest option as I can carryout the work myself easily enough. But...... seems like a compromise given the reading I've been doing lately.....
God I hate decisions!!
As always, finish with a question (or three!),
1. The compression damping adjuster on the bottom of the forks, can't find anything to say how to remove this?  Do they just unscrew?
2. The plastic dust covers on the top of the fork lowers, do they come off and if so, how?? Looks like they should screw off, but don't want to push it in case I snap them.
3. Fork lowers, anyone had them re-painted or powder coated? If so, anyone recommend anywhere? I've used a good firm in Bristol for powder coating to date, (Griffs Reality Motorworks, www.realitymotorworks.com ) just wondering on the general consensus.
Again, any info greatly received.
Will keep you posted....
Cheers.

[Falcon 269]

You seem to be doing nicely so far.

I'd take advice from K-tech before committing to installing their piston set yourself, just in case it's not quite as straightforward as it seems.

The compression adjuster is non-removable.  Well, to be accurate, the housing does unscrew from the fork leg but you gain nothing by doing that and you risk screwing up a fine thread on re-assembly.  My advice is to leave it alone unless you have a problem with the adjuster.

The stone guards on the fork legs are a push fit, IIRC.

[kevcl15]

Hi,
Yeah, I am weary of spending that much on a kit without really knowing whats involved. Shame really as I enjoy getting the old hands on.
Re the stone guards, any "easy" way to get them off? Did have a bit of a push/pull/twist but didn't budge.
Re the compression adjusters, it was the housing I was on about as if I decide to powder coat they'll have to come out.
Will let you know if anything else comes my way in the meantime.
Cheers

[AyJay]

Nice going. I'm going to let you do mine next time!


The stone guards get hard with age and there's small slot which they fit into but a squirt with WD40 and a bit of a heave will get them off.

[kevcl15]

Watcha all.
The forks are fully stripped now,stone guards off (worst bit of the whole escapade!) and the rebound adjuster housings are out also.
Next step, powder coating, Spoken to my man at Griffs, fork lowers in gloss black (matches the swing arm) £35 all in. if i'd wanted silver it would have been £45, not bad either way. So packaged up this morning and off to the post office.
Also decided that as the bikes in this level of strip to have the bottom yolk done as its looking a touch sad. price for top and bottom yolk is the same as the forks, but I'm undecided on the upper yolk as need to remove the key barrel. See how I go this morning.
Which leads me to steering bearings. Plenty on here about bearings,probably go with the tapered bearings, any potential potholes I should be aware of? Have changed a set on a Hornet before now, I know pressing them on is probably the best way to  but the workshop I used last time is no more.
Its going to be 10-14 days turn around on the forks so plenty of time to hopefully cut a deal with KTech.
Anyway, shall keep you posted.
Cheers

[ricknz]

How did you get on with the piston kit fitting? Did you do it yourself? I have the same kit and would like to fit it myself... can't be too hard eh?