Author Topic: Slightly asthmatic old girl… (Read 3321 times)

Likesbikes · « **on:** 23 October 2022, 01:17:17 pm »

Hey all just an introduction into the FZS600 we’ve bought for my fiancées first bike. Not really asking anything specifically, I’m sure any questions I want to ask are answered elsewhere on the forums. That said if anyone would like to chime in with their knowledge and experience that would be very welcome - doesn’t hurt to have as much info as possible in one place for easy reference. Cheers in advance.

So we’ve bagged a slightly tatty (but dirt cheap) 99 model in Silver, 43,000 miles which handles and stops pretty well. New tyres, braided brake lines and the ‘two on dip beam’ headlight mod already done. Still a good bike in this day and age I think, plus the slightly rough round the edges bodywork on it along with crash bungs makes it not too much of a worry if it suffers a low speed novice drop.

The problem is that it doesn’t seem to have the get up and go that I feel a 90 odd horsepower bike should. I appreciate a few of those horsey’s may have escaped over the last 23 years but even so, I’ve ridden early bandits that have more pep in them and that can’t be right surely??! My own bike is an ever so slightly more powerful ZX-12R so my seat of the pants dyno may be skewed but I don’t think so. But as with all new to me used bikes it got a bit of a service with oil and filter, plugs, air filter and fuel filter. The old plugs showed that servicing wasn’t high on the agenda for the previous owner.

So anyway the issues. it has an erratic idle with an offbeat exhaust note and honestly feels a bit wheezy on acceleration. I figured it was cheap so I can throw a little bit of money at it. So the investigation started…the first thing I found was a pair of downpipes warming up slower than the other two when sprayed with a mist of water. Trimmed back the HT leads and fitted new NGK caps and that was sorted, checked the tps adjustment and balanced the carbs. Still no improvement so starting to wonder about the carbs but in my experience they are best left alone until you’re sure that’s the problem.

My doubts lie with the TPS, it needs adjusting every time I look at it (although this has been before and after carb balancing) and doesn’t seem to settle dead on 5000 rpm when in test mode, sits at around 5200 so I don’t know if this is significant or a fault in the clocks. The resistance reads and increases fine as you open the throttle on the left/middle terminals (black and yellow wire connectors if I recall correctly) however the two outer terminals (blue/yellow??) are reading 8.3 ohms - significantly higher than the specs listed in the Haynes manual? Also running the bike with the TPS disconnected doesn’t make it any worse (in fact other than the rev counter showing it as a fault it makes no difference at all).

So I’m planning to get a new one, a used one on eBay or similar could be no better. Found a post on here about a Hyosung bike using the same sensor (can’t remember who posted it but thank you whoever you are) for far cheaper than Yamaha.

Any opinions here before I pull the trigger? It seems to be common with the TPS on our aging bikes. I’m planning to pull the carbs anyway once winter sets in hard, the camchain tensioner also needs some attention as that sewing machine noise drives me mental!!

Anyway thank you for reading, probably typed far too much but wanted to paint as full a picture as possible. Cheers gang, looking forward to hearing from you and hope my experience with this might help others in the future.

Darren.

BBROWN1664 · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 October 2022, 04:38:21 pm »

the TPS sounds fine. they dont always sit bang on the 5K but when they are out, they are out. 0k or 10K. its obvious.

Might be a daft question, but have you checked the airbox isnt blocked and has a clean filter? Also, has it got a restriction kit fitted? On these, it is washers in the carb intakes.

Likesbikes · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 October 2022, 05:05:29 pm »

I’ve not considered the possibility of a restrictor kit actually, I don’t imagine the previous owner wouldn’t have mentioned that but might look into it anyway. The air filter has been done, didn’t notice anything untoward.

Of course there’s always the possibility that the bike is just a poor example and it’s had it ha.

darrsi · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 October 2022, 05:10:30 pm »

From experience (a few times) I've found that the TPS don't just stop working, they break down gradually.
You can feel the bike misbehaving at all speeds, but it's most noticeable below 3000rpm or when moving in slow moving traffic. The tickover will be erratic and unstable too.
Saying that, as mentioned, when they're on their way out they will generally hit 0rpm or 10K, rather than sitting on 5K with the needle.
As the years go on it is false economy to buy a used one, as like I found out they are just as likely to peg out as well.
Bear in mind though, if the TPS was at fault, then chances are it can effect a carb balance if the bike isn't ticking over properly.
I have also been unfortunate enough to buy moody spark plugs too in the past, as well as a paper air filter that was very restrictive, just something to bear in mind too.

It does sound like there is an issue of some sort, as although you're used to your bigger bike, these 600's still have a bit of welly on them as well.

Wouldn't be the first time that there was an unknown restrictor kit fitted either, so that's a good shout from BROWN1664.

Likesbikes · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 October 2022, 05:32:28 pm »

I don’t know if the TPS is breaking down gradually as we’ve not had it long, but so far I’ve adjusted it twice and it was out both times? The thing that shouts at me is that it makes no difference whether or not it’s plugged in? Might get one of those hyonsung ones and rebalance the carbs, no big deal to do that.

Doesn’t look like a big job to check the restrictor kit so I’ll maybe check for that too next weekend.

Cheers, I’m pretty handy with spanner’s so please keep any suggestions coming

Likesbikes · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 October 2022, 05:35:07 pm »

Should add that it’s not a problem if there’s anything that takes a while, the good lady hasn’t passed her test yet.

I work away in the week so the weekends are tinkering time

darrsi · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 October 2022, 11:38:06 pm »

Used to be about £70, now £90+

Likesbikes · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 October 2022, 08:56:56 am »

Fowlers had genuine ones for about £250… crikey!!

darrsi · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 October 2022, 02:17:25 pm »

https://bikesandtravels.com/biker.aspx?ride=201&x=x

darrsi · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 October 2022, 03:11:10 pm »

Can't believe I haven't done this before, but after reading that above link I thought I'd see if I could cross match some bikes that have the same TPS as the Fazer, and I got a good match.

2001 YZF-R1 has exactly the same part number on Fowlers website.

But on Ebay it's a fraction of the cost in comparison, and that's brand new too.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203539706551?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=c_z8tlwpq4m&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=5jvij9unSpS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=EMAIL

Likesbikes · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 October 2022, 11:43:38 am »

I looked at that one (I think), it doesn’t match the part number on Fowlers website but it looks identical in the photos. I might give it a go, can always compare the two and return it if needs be.

Cheers fella, will report back

darrsi · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 October 2022, 12:23:31 pm »

Quote from: Likesbikes on 25 October 2022, 11:43:38 am

I looked at that one (I think), it doesn’t match the part number on Fowlers website but it looks identical in the photos. I might give it a go, can always compare the two and return it if needs be.

Cheers fella, will report back

The TPS for the 2001 YZF-R1 and FZS600 are the same part number on Fowlers, and this ad says 2001 YZF-R1.

It's obviously an aftermarket part, which may be to do with it.
On the CMS Netherlands website it says that they actually fit 260 bikes!

Likesbikes · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 October 2022, 12:36:43 pm »

Oh I never cross referenced it on Fowlers. It should be here for the weekend so I’ll let everyone know.

I read somewhere it also fits the 600 and 750 SRAD GSXR’s and a few Kawasaki’s too. It looks very similar to the part on my 1200 and I considered swapping them over to test but the adjustment procedure is considerably more involved on mine.

Likesbikes · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 October 2022, 01:12:27 pm »

Well the R1 TPS is identical and works perfectly, hasn’t cured my problem but seems to have smoothed the tickover slightly. Unfortunately the bike is still a bit wheezy and gutless, possibly just a dog?

I’ve been looking at the intake rubbers between the carbs and the head, pretty shocking condition from the outside but I’ve no idea if the splits go all the way through. Something else I’ve noticed is a bit of throttle hang when you blip the throttle in neutral, so could be letting a bit of air in somewhere maybe?

So I’m now looking into a carb rebuild kit and possibly a set of intake rubbers, needless to say it probably won’t be getting genuine parts so any recommendations on these parts any cheaper? A lot of too good to be true prices on eBay, particular the manifolds, don’t know if anyone has used them?

darrsi · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 October 2022, 01:42:16 pm »

A mechanic once took my carbs off and on refitting carb rubber #2 had accidentally slightly folded in on itself letting air in on acceleration. That caused it to bog down.

Likesbikes · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 October 2022, 02:13:00 pm »

Interesting, will be examining them at the weekend anyway - work gets in the way of this important stuff. Wondered if the cheap and cheerful ones were any good, if so I’d get a set anyway. That said I might try sealing the old ones with some sort of glue, see if it helps.

Want the carbs out of the way anyway to look at the cam chain tensioner

unfazed · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 October 2022, 04:06:03 pm »

A few things on the 600:They have a Nikasil bore which is very long lasting and rarely has problems at the mileage on yours unless it has been very poorly maintained. The Cam chain tensioner is also a rare failure because of its simple but very effective design
If you are removing the carbs remove the Rocker cover and check the chain for wear by the cam timing marks and you need to remover the alternator cover to line up the marks. There no gasket on the cover as it run dry. Tie it back while it is off. If the marks are off then it is the chain that's wearing.
Chains wear unevenly and the tensioner cannot take up the slack fully because of this. A bit of rattle from cold until warm is usually cam chain wear. As the cover is off check the valve clearances. They can be out in as little as 20000 miles or 75000 miles checking them rules them out or in as part of your issue. These bikes will still run fine with the timing out one tooth due to chain wear.
You can remove and dismantle the plug caps, there are notorious for corrosion within and many replace them with NGK SD05F. I cleaned out my own and replaced the internal resistors with ones for an old NGK set as they are wire wound compared to the Yamaha Carbon ones and less prone to failure, and the top and bottom boots of the caps with NGK one also. The internal spring needs to be cleaned is reusing the old caps and the tiny internal disc spacer cleaned of dumped as it corrodes badly and break easily. They spring seat needs to be cleaned with a sharpened screwdriver or something like it. Before refitting the caps cut 10mm of the ends of the wires before screwing them back on to the caps.
Carbs: Carbs can be a pain to remove or refit but loosen everything fully, as a rule of thumb loosen the front and rear bands until the bolt is flush with the end of the nut on the band. Removing the bolt completely in not necessary and if you do the spacer will drop into the most inaccesible place, this needs to be used as it prevent ove-rtightening the band and damaging the intake rubbers. The rear band has no spacers, but are seated in one position. It is worth while replace the intake rubbers due to the age of the bike. (Wemoto do a good set at a reasonable price) Coils need to be removed and Fuel pump also needs to be removed. Remove the side cover and the battery. loosen the 2 side bolts remove the top bracket and pull back the air box as far as it will go and tighten the two side bolts to hold it there. Move the clutch cable out of the way to ease removal. Loosen the cable completely and remove from there holders. Pull back the carbs from the intake and this can be extremely difficult as they will be stuck in place however perseverance pays off here. Cables are removed when carbs are half way out usually the left side remove the cables from the carbs.
When dismantling the carbs do not mix up the bits from each carb as the will have different wear and match the ones they cam from best. Replace the float bowl seals and remove the pilot jets and check them thoroughly. They have a tiny star web internally and makes them difficult to clean. Soak in carb cleaner for a few hours or overnight usually helps. Remove the main jets and check the O ring worth replacing if flattend or damaged. Replacing the float valve O Ring is also worth while to save have to remove the carbs again as they can go hard/perish when idle for long periods. I don't usually replace the needle valves as they are not wear prone and are better quality than most aftermarket ones, plus it save resetting the float level. Use ordinary grease on the float bowl seal as it will aid fitting and the fuel will wash it away easily if it gets inot the system
The TPS wears and due its carbon track design and is a hit and miss causing uneven idle and surging on low throttle. Be aware when buying new ones as there are two types that look exactly the same design with the same markings, one is spring loaded clockwise and the other is spring loaded anticlockwise. If the add does not specifically mention the FZS it may not fit. There is a Suzuki one the fits and can be half the price of the Yamaha ones new. Usually if the fits the right side of the carb and its connector is facing up and back it is the correct one. An example of this is the XJR1200/1300, it looks exactly the same, but is the reverse of the 600 and will not work.
You should have enough to go on here to start.

robbo · « **Reply #17 on:** 31 October 2022, 04:57:10 pm »

unfazed…..you are The Man

Likesbikes · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 October 2022, 06:58:38 pm »

Unfazed… cheers for all that, very helpful. The plug caps are already done which made it better, the downpipes warmed up evenly and smoothed it out a bit. The R1 TPS is already fitted and seems to be working a little better although strictly speaking it probably wasn’t necessary. However it did feel a lot smoother in its operation than the existing one so probably would need one at some point anyway. The cam chain tensioner I suspect is stuck and hopefully just needs a clean to free it up, the rattling doesn’t ease up as the engine gets warm.

My plan was to have the carbs out over the weekend but with one thing or another I never had the time so fingers crossed for this Saturday. I have an ultrasonic cleaner for the jets etc so hopefully this will sort them. Will have a look on wemoto for the intake boots, probably the carb bits too.

Last but not least will be the valve clearances, am I right in thinking they’re every 24,000 miles? If that’s the case they’re not too far off due and that’s assuming they were done already.

If all that doesn’t work can anyone recommend somewhere to get a gallon of petrol and some matches? 😆

unfazed · « **Reply #19 on:** 31 October 2022, 08:24:27 pm »

Likesbikes: You are well ahead of my post then. I presume the TPS was a new non-Yamaha or Mikuni Part? The Yamaha Price is off the wall compared to Suzuki for exactly the same Mikuni part.
Used ones are hit and miss and not good value unless very cheap. They are carbon track Rheostats and the tracks wear over time. The TPS tells the Ignitor what the throttle open it at and them compares it to the engine revs and bike speed and will adjust the timing accordingly when the tracks wears the resistance changes and the ignitor changes the timing to suit what it sees and that causes the surging and uneven idle.

Forgot to add, to remove the cam cover remove the bolt holding on the thermostat housing it only needs to be able to move a very small amount to get the cam cover off, usually out the right side. Highly unlikely the valve clearances were checked is there is no history with it. Unfortunately because there is no noise from a tight valve clearance many assume wrongly all is ok.

I have an Ultra sonic cleaner and if you use a detergent to clean the carbs make sure you blow the jets and orifices dry when the carbs come out of the cleaner. I no longer buy after market kits for carbs as many are supplied with O rings that are not really Ethanol resistant and or low quality. I now buy directly from O Ring suppliers. This company are good to deal with https://www.polymax.co.uk/o-rings/rubber-viton-oring/ and have FKM(Viton) 80 ShA O Rings.
The sizes are: Float needle valve: 7.5mm ID x 1.5mm cross section 10.5 OD
Main Jet: 5.5mm ID x 1.5mm cross section x 8.5mm OD
Float Bowl sealsare:YAMAHA 5DM-14561-00-00
SUZUKI 13258-04F00
Both are exactly the same and like the TPS are Mikuni items in a Yamaha or Suzuki package and last time I bought some the Suzuki one were over half the price as was the last TPS I bought.
Bike benefits from a free flowing filter (I use K&N) as it was ran slightly rich from the factory to pass the noise limits.

Likesbikes · « **Reply #20 on:** 31 October 2022, 10:12:13 pm »

Cheers @Unfazed for the part numbers and the o ring heads up, will be very useful.

The TPS was a new pattern part of dubious origins, however it seems better than the mikuni original that I’m assuming is the actual original. As said I’ve not had the time for too much involved investigation but I’m hoping to get into the guts of it a bit this weekend, still have to investigate the possibility of a restrictor kit as suggested early on in the thread. Im not sure the likelihood of an A2 restrictor kit on a bike this old (also isn’t it technically too powerful for that as it can’t be more than double the A2 limit?) and if it’s an old 33bhp kit I think it has a bit more than that but who knows - need to inspect the rubbers anyway.

Not sure it’s ready for a K&N just yet, let’s just make it work properly for now

BBROWN1664 · « **Reply #21 on:** 01 November 2022, 08:59:23 am »

Quote from: Likesbikes on 31 October 2022, 10:12:13 pm

Im not sure the likelihood of an A2 restrictor kit on a bike this old (also isn’t it technically too powerful for that as it can’t be more than double the A2 limit?) and if it’s an old 33bhp kit I think it has a bit more than that but who knows - need to inspect the rubbers anyway.

Not sure it’s ready for a K&N just yet, let’s just make it work properly for now

My nephew has just passed his test and has an FZS600 with the restrictor kit fitted. It is just washers in the carb inlets. The FZS600, unlike the FZ6, just squeaks under the threshold for restricting.

As for the K&N, they really smooth out the power by allowing the free flow of air. Well worth adding if you have a non standard, maybe even a standard, end can fitted. Make sure you balance the carbs again though.

Likesbikes · « **Reply #22 on:** 01 November 2022, 02:09:36 pm »

Oh I didn’t realise it fell into that bracket, thought it was a bhp or two over the threshold.
Anyway I have a decent set of intake boots and an ethanol friendly carb kit on their way. Looking at the state of the rubbers I’m not sure they’ll survive the ordeal of removal to get a look inside them. Hope this works, the way things are going with new bits we’re going to have two part worn tyres with a brand new Fazer sat on them.

Will certainly be looking into a K&N or similar assuming we can get it running right first. I have a race can to suit in my garage, need to order a link pipe but she’s not convinced lol.

unfazed · « **Reply #23 on:** 02 November 2022, 10:19:34 am »

Common misconception, as the FZS600 is 95PS which many assume is 95BHP.
95PS which is about 70Kw and within the limit for 35Kw restriction.There were a few FZS600 with a factory restriction of 25Kw, but I think it was only the Foxeye models

One thing I didn't know until recently was that the A test must be completed on a bike with a minimum power output 50Kw.
My nephew had to borrow my FZS600 a few months ago for his A test, because his carburetor model 2005 Suzuki DL650 has a maximum power output of 49Kw.

Likesbikes · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 November 2022, 10:22:41 pm »

Hey all. Apologies for not getting back sooner, been busy buying a new bike and stuff so never got to the Fazers carbs til today. Anyway got them out no real problems with that, no restrictor kit in the inlets so ruled that out. The rubber boots were like new on the inside but I’d already bought replacements so put them on anyway. Took off the float bowls and found rust particles in the bottom that had partially blocked the jets. Cleaned it all up and reassembled them. All back in easy enough although the air box was a pain to get square on the carbs. Shook the tank up and drained some fuel through the tap into a bottle with no sign of rust so I’m hoping it was from a petrol station with nasty tanks? The guy lived out in the sticks so maybe. Will check the filter periodically to be on the safe side.

So the bike obviously goes a bit better, still feels a bit wheezy to me but maybe I need to look at my expectations? I notice the exhaust is particularly quiet on it, far mor mechanical noise from the engine and transmission than the exhaust unless the revs are right up there. Is the standard silencer particularly quiet on these? I could do with a more familiar owner to have a listen and maybe take it for a spin.