BREXIT

[mtread]

Agreed - BUT you can vote out the politicians who made them in this country.

But no you can't. You can vote for one MP, one (or perhaps two) local councillors. If your candidate is elected and in opposition, you don't get what you want.
What's the difference with the EU? You vote for your candidate as an MEP. If they win, they have a vote in the European Parliament. If you don't like what your MEP is doing, you can vote them out. If your MEP joins with others to resist an EU proposal, then it won't happen.
Does anybody here actually bother to vote in the European Parliament elections?

[mtread]

Who can blame Remain for being optimistic?. Not me. I'd be very surprised if we come out.

I think you're right, but not without another referendum. If the result is something like 60:40 or above  Remain they will use that to overturn the 48:52.
My betting though is a delay on the March deadline followed by a renegotiated deal keeping all of the UK in the Customs Union and the Single Market. What NI is getting, but for all of the UK. A sort of Norway deal and not far removed from Theresa's current offerring, and closer to Labour's 6 tests. Shuts up the DUP too. UK then can say it has formally left the EU, but still takes most of the rules. Does mean though that in future UK can withdraw any time it likes. Theresa's escape plan.

[YamFazFan]

What's the difference with the EU?

You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.

[mtread]

You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.

You can't vote for the Civil Servants who propose, write and implement the UK legislation that UK members of Parliament vote on. Who do you think prepared the Withdrawal Bill? MPs just sign stuff off.

[YamFazFan]

MPs just sign stuff off.

Nonsense.

[YamFazFan]

MPs just sign stuff off.

In that case they can just sign off Brexit

[mtread]

MPs just sign stuff off.Nonsense.

Been there, done it. I think you're over estimating the abilities of our 'leaders' 

[YamFazFan]

You've been an MP?

[mtread]

You've been an MP?

No. It was either become a blood donor or join the Young Conservatives 

[YamFazFan]

 

[fazersharp]

You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.

You can't vote for the Civil Servants who propose, write and implement the UK legislation that UK members of Parliament vote on. Who do you think prepared the Withdrawal Bill? MPs just sign stuff off.

That's another thing, I have been watching the BBC doc about the foreign office and got the distinct that all the civil servants - permanent secretaries - ambassadors, all want to stay in the EU and therefore maintain the status quo keeping themselves in a cushy little job with nice pensions. All out of the direct gaze of the public.
Politicians however need to have one eye on what the voters think         

[agricola]

I never had any objection to free movement within the EU. Its all those that get in from outside, the spongers, the thieves, the disease carriers, the terrorists, those that have abandoned their wives and children, that get here, are declared illegal and disappear to work in the black economy, then want to change our society to reflect their interests. In general, I found those from Poland/Chez republic very well mannered, polite and good workers

[mtread]

That's another thing, I have been watching the BBC doc about the foreign office and got the distinct that all the civil servants - permanent secretaries - ambassadors, all want to stay in the EU and therefore maintain the status quo keeping themselves in a cushy little job with nice pensions. All out of the direct gaze of the public.Politicians however need to have one eye on what the voters think         

I've been watching it too. Another way of looking at it is that ministers come and go (especially with this lot), and don't care what mess they leave. Just look at Boris. And of course they've got their private sector interests to keep them cosy. Civil Servants want continuity and stability, because they will have to clear the mess up.
BTW MPs get better pensions than Civil Servants, and dear Nigel Farage will be getting a better pension than both.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 

You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.

You can’t vote in or out your Prime Minister.  You can’t vote in or out government ministers.  So by your logic our government and our PM are unelected.
 

I never had any objection to free movement within the EU.

As I said before - Note also that under directive 2004/38 EU migrants only have a right to residence in a member state for 3 months.  After that they need to have one of three things in order to continue to stay – A job – A job lined up – or be able to demonstrate that they have the means to support themselves. 
 
 So we already have the means to control EU movement.  Freedom of movement is a non-issue.
 

Its all those that get in from outside, the spongers, the thieves, the disease carriers, the terrorists, those that have abandoned their wives and children, that get here, are declared illegal and disappear to work in the black economy, then want to change our society to reflect their interests.

Whilst I disagree most strongly at your general description of immigrants from outside the EU Agricola, I would point out again that leaving the EU will make no difference to non-EU immigration.   I would further point out that our illegal wars, proxy wars and weapons sales have contributed massively to UK immigration.
 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

[YamFazFan]

Civil Servants want continuity and stability

Sir Humphrey Appleby

[mtread]

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Versus Jim Hacker - I rest my case 

[fazersharp]

Setting aside any in or out bias. I am wondering if Mays plan will actually be voted down, all the talk about the maths and numbers doth speak to loudly me think  and I wonder if members are saying they will vote it down but actually have no plans to. Or is number 10 over playing the against vote so that when there is an against vote - but not as overwhelming as being predicted it can be used as- and played as a victory.The problem with politicians is that they are all politicians.I think it should be like jury service and you are called up as a citizen and member of the public to do a stint in the commons.Look out the white paper on Fazers paying no road tax or insurance and free petrol when I do my turn.And then after that I will get a very nice rotating door job at Yam __________________ oh my god I have become an actual politician           

[mtread]

There are clearly all sorts of tactics going on. If she thinks she is going to lose, she will have a plan B, but won't reveal until she has lost. I can't see how she can get her deal through. With all the opposition parties voting against (for various reasons) + the DUP + both the Tory Remainers and the Tory Hard Brexiteers, it's an impossibility. I can't see many being persuaded at the last minute. We'll know plan B by Wednesday.

[celticdog]

Worst case scenario for me is that we have a re run of the brexit vote and we end up remaining. The EU more or less forced Ireland and Denmark to re-run elections as they didn't get the result they wanted.
That's my and others peoples biggest criticism of the EU- it's fundamentally undemocratic. Forget the racist xenophobia and the economic downturn rhetoric it's all a smokescreen. The UK is a tolerant society and still will be after brexit. I'm not sure it's the same in other places, fascism is on the rise- we need to be on our guard. Also, there are plenty of countries in the EU who have economies that are tanking- PIGS- Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. They don't want us to leave in case others do similar. This cartel has had it's day imho.

[agricola]

Worst case scenario for me is that we have a re run of the brexit vote and we end up remaining. The EU more or less forced Ireland and Denmark to re-run elections as they didn't get the result they wanted.
That's my and others peoples biggest criticism of the EU- it's fundamentally undemocratic. Forget the racist xenophobia and the economic downturn rhetoric it's all a smokescreen. The UK is a tolerant society and still will be after brexit. I'm not sure it's the same in other places, fascism is on the rise- we need to be on our guard. Also, there are plenty of countries in the EU who have economies that are tanking- PIGS- Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. They don't want us to leave in case others do similar. This cartel has had it's day imho.

 

[YamFazFan]

We'll know plan B by Wednesday.

...or even by Monday

[mtread]

Plan? What plan....

[YamFazFan]

Plan? What plan....

Just watching Parliament Live.


Here's the Remain MP's plan for uniting a deeply divided nation...keep voting until the result is Remain

[YamFazFan]

Plan? What plan....

She's postponed tomorrow's vote while she goes back to The EU to appeal to them to be a bit more reasonable. Good luck with that one.


Bring on the No Deal