Thought I'd try V power.

[Simon.Pieman]

Just to make a bald statement saying what everyone else had said is cobblers, without giving any reasons even for that statement, well, not surprising you'll put someone's back up a bit, is it?

There you go again, I did not say that what everyone else said was cobblers, I did not use the word 'everyone' or infer it, yet another misrepresentation. I said there was 'cobblers being said about these fuels' and there ARE comments that presume these fuels perform better because of a higher RON value -you do not have to be engineer to work out that an anti-knock additive is in a fuel to retard the burn in engines that need it, and patently does not offer any advantage in engines that don't need it (like in a standard jap four for example).
Sorry if I appear arrogant but perhaps I should have mentioned relevent credentials, I was a marine engineer (with a good degree) for 35 years and taught it at City of London Poly for 3 of those years before moving into diving tech. I do know a little bit about engines and the stuff that makes the bits move around inside. I don't know what Shell stick in their fuels but I'd bet the bottom line is that your engine runs just as fine without it.
 

[noggythenog]

Dont worry chaps




All this quality control talk has got me thinking of another tyres thread




We all love those 


Ill leave it for later.

[darrsi]

Dont worry chaps




All this quality control talk has got me thinking of another tyres thread




We all love those 


Ill leave it for later.

(Whatever you do, don't mention Activ8) 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

How about a which oil is best thread?

Anyway chill out dudes.  But meanwhile,

The first thing you have to understand is that high octane as Simon points out simply means a slower more controlled burn.  The engine in your Fazer produces optimum performance on 92RON and it's timing is set up for 92RON.

What you might be better doing, rather than umm spending cash on fancy fuels, is looking into ignition advancers.  As we can't get 92RON and have to use 95RON, the theory is that you might want to advance the ignition to match the fuel you are using and ensure max performance.  ( that could be an angry thread too! )

Now I have tried super unleaded in my car.  Simply becuase the local garage was out of ordinary unleaded and I needed fuel.  I noticed no difference.  But I can't remember what brand out petrol station is/was selling (it's changed a few times (see how much I care)).

But anyway I will look out for some V power come the spring and try and get a couple of tank fulls, hopefully 2 in a row, through the bike.  I am puzzled that people claim to notice a difference.  Plus Shell claim more MPG (though they offer no evidence whatsoever.  So OK I'll try it and and report back.

All in the head?  Placebo effect?  Ever heard of God?  Some folks even talk to him you know!

Hey, how about a God thread?

[unfazed]

Just to make a bald statement saying what everyone else had said is cobblers, without giving any reasons even for that statement, well, not surprising you'll put someone's back up a bit, is it?

There you go again, I did not say that what everyone else said was cobblers, I did not use the word 'everyone' or infer it, yet another misrepresentation. I said there was 'cobblers being said about these fuels' and there ARE comments that presume these fuels perform better because of a higher RON value -you do not have to be engineer to work out that an anti-knock additive is in a fuel to retard the burn in engines that need it, and patently does not offer any advantage in engines that don't need it (like in a standard jap four for example).
Sorry if I appear arrogant but perhaps I should have mentioned relevent credentials, I was a marine engineer (with a good degree) for 35 years and taught it at City of London Poly for 3 of those years before moving into diving tech. I do know a little bit about engines and the stuff that makes the bits move around inside. I don't know what Shell stick in their fuels but I'd bet the bottom line is that your engine runs just as fine without it.

  You have hit the nail on the head.
To some the spoken cold hard truth is considered arrogance.

Each to their own and if they are happy spending well earned cash on a fuel with a higher RON value, then they are entitled to and if they feel there bike runs better on it, then there is no harm in using it.
I remember the old GS Suzukis which were designed to run on low octane unleaded fuel and 2 in the bike club I was a member of insisted on using high octane leaded fuel and could not be convinced that the low octane fuel was perfectly fine. Even when they were changing plugs more frequently than I was due to lead fouling they still remained unconvinced.

Oh! one question, a good degree of what

[darrsi]

I bet God would use V Power if he/she/it existed! 

[unfazed]

I bet Shell would like to think so

[darrsi]

I bet Shell would like to think so

Di Vine Power 

[NorthWestern]

Aaaaaand just checked my ignition timing after snapping my choke cable this morning  and the bike starting first prod. "+2deg" in marker pen on the plate.  Seems it has had some fettling....

[VNA - BMW Wank]

A wee DIY mod? - http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/eskortsadvancermod.shtml

Might explain why it likes higher octane fuel.

[Dead Eye]

That's interesting regarding the ignition advancing. I suddenly thought of it ahead of what you were saying about a slower, more controlled burn VNA. My 1000 actually has a 4 degree ignition advancer on at the moment which I had forgotten about - this could help to explain the bikes preference (in my own opinion, please don't shoot me) of the higher octane fuel.

It's also worth noting that some ECU's take a while to learn what is going on before they make adjustments - my cage is said to do something along these lines. It's not enough to make a subtle change and go for a spin. With V-Power though, the car definitely gets some better MPG - its not enough to outweigh the cost of the fuel, but that's irrelevant to me. This has been tracked across 10k miles with earlier records using standard fuel (95 RON). The difference in my engine is up to about 10% which is only about 3MPG though...

[NorthWestern]

That's what I thought too,  yeah looks like a DIY mod

[VNA - BMW Wank]

My 1000 actually has a 4 degree ignition advancer on at the moment which I had forgotten about - this could help to explain the bikes preference (in my own opinion, please don't shoot me) of the higher octane fuel.

It might indeed.

Now some tuners will recommend an ignition advancer whilst others will not.  Nor do I know how much advance is considered optimum for Gen1 thou for 95RON never mind 98RON.

With V-Power though, the car definitely gets some better MPG

What sort of cage are you driving?  Have you checked the owners manual for recommended Octane?

[fazersharp]

The thick get plotter !
So are we now saying the dudes who say they can feel and or do notice a difference that their bikes have unbeknown to them had the timing modified   

[Dead Eye]

The thick get plotter !
So are we now saying the dudes who say they can feel and or do notice a difference that their bikes have unbeknown to them had the timing modified   

Well I'd heard that an ignition advancer could make the bike feel better or whatever so figured I'd give it a punt as they aren't expensive. As it turns out, it did so I never took it off - if it hadn't of worked I would have just removed it and taken the financial hit.

With V-Power though, the car definitely gets some better MPG

What sort of cage are you driving?  Have you checked the owners manual for recommended Octane?

As for the car (MG ZS 180) - I've never bothered to look at the recommended Octane fuel. Its naturally aspirated so didn't consider this before hand but a little research says that it is tuned to run on 95 RON apparently...

People on the MG ZS forums reckon that you can get up to 200hp (+20-25~) by remapping the ECU

[noggythenog]

Deadeye....my little skoda is recommended for 95 ron.....it's a 1.2 TSI......so a turbo.....so that's 2 pretty different engines covered there....1 big, 1 small, 1 NA & 1 Turbo..........both running on the same old shizny.

[Dead Eye]

True, but neither are what I would call performance engines... the V6 tries but realistically its still entry level :P

I imagine they have been developed to support the most common fuel available for the regions they are intended to be sold in. The KV6 has knock sensors but apparently the ECU will only compensate for lower RON fuels to avoid pinking and therefore won't make the most out of the likes of V-Power - this could go a way to explaining why remapping the ECU gets recommended

[VNA - BMW Wank]

The KV6 has knock sensors but apparently the ECU will only compensate for lower RON fuels to avoid pinking and therefore won't make the most out of the likes of V-Power - this could go a way to explaining why remapping the ECU gets recommended

Nope becuase an engine either needs it or it does not.  High octane petrol contains the same energy as low octane fuel.

Anyway according to the interweb.  My GEN1 Fazer thou has a high compression engine, however as it is a small capacity engine that runs at 'normal' temperatures it won't 'knock' or 'pink' on 92RON, so therefore it does not require a higher octane. 

And personally I'm not minded to mess with Mr Yamaha's timing. 

[Dead Eye]

Given that a higher RON fuel has a more controlled burn, timing can be adjusted to make the most of the burn cycle to ensure you get the most out of the fuel? I'm not saying the fuel has more energy, just that the timing can be adjusted to make the most out of the burn. Given the more uncontrolled burn of a lower RON fuel, I would assume that at least some of the energy is wasted.

Engine design (and probably ECU software) will factor in a lot on this I imagine. I agree that an engine may not NEED a higher octane fuel to function, but surely that is like saying you don't NEED decent tyres - the car will still perform its function. But upgrading either can be beneficial - I'm not saying it definitively, just that it is possible.

I would guess that the most modern engines can probably get very good efficiency from the burn cycle of lower RON fuels, but that doesn't mean you can't edge out that little bit extra. I'm all for experimentation so I tend to base my recommendations on first hand experience - anything else is subject to (polite) scrutiny, theory and discussion until it is put in to practice. I've personally found that the ignition advancer has made my experience on my thou more enjoyable, but it has been extensively modified... YMMV

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Given that a higher RON fuel has a more controlled burn, timing can be adjusted to make the most of the burn cycle to ensure you get the most out of the fuel? I'm not saying the fuel has more energy, just that the timing can be adjusted to make the most out of the burn. Given the more uncontrolled burn of a lower RON fuel, I would assume that at least some of the energy is wasted.

Nope, you want to use the lowest RON fuel you can get away without pinking.  The anti-knock additives sap a little energy from the fuel.  Remember the RON rating is a measure of anti-knock property.

Engine design (and probably ECU software) will factor in a lot on this I imagine. I agree that an engine may not NEED a higher octane fuel to function, but surely that is like saying you don't NEED decent tyres - the car will still perform its function. But upgrading either can be beneficial - I'm not saying it definitively, just that it is possible.

On that basis, can I recommend you use this water for your coolant.  http://www.veenwaters.com/index.html

[Aegis Bearing Mel]

It's not just about the RON number, it's about what else it's blended with.
Lead being the most commonly known, if no longer used, additive...

Winter fuel and summer fuel still have the same RON number, but are entirely different compositions.
The mix of short chain,long chain, branched, unbranched and aromatic hydrocarbons are altered to allow different volatility at different ambient temperatures so the engine can start, but still blended to ensure it resists knocking as well as the iso-octane blend it's based on once in the engine.
Then you add other components such as detergents to ensure injection nozzles don't clog and the like and it's a whole lot more complicated than not exploding quicker than 95% octane.

I think.
It's been a while...

[noggythenog]

Aegis were you a refinery operator up Grangemouth or sumingk?


Or have you just been watching the great british bake off too often with all that mixing and blending

[VNA - BMW Wank]

It's not just about the RON number, it's about what else it's blended with.
Lead being the most commonly known, if no longer used, additive...

Winter fuel and summer fuel still have the same RON number, but are entirely different compositions.
The mix of short chain,long chain, branched, unbranched and aromatic hydrocarbons are altered to allow different volatility at different ambient temperatures so the engine can start, but still blended to ensure it resists knocking as well as the iso-octane blend it's based on once in the engine.
Then you add other components such as detergents to ensure injection nozzles don't clog and the like and it's a whole lot more complicated than not exploding quicker than 95% octane.

Sure but that applies to all petrol fuels. 

The question is if 92RON is recommended by Yamaha, is there any benefit in using 99RON.

I think the answer is simple - NO.

[Aegis Bearing Mel]

Sure it applies to all petrol fuels, but that's kinda my point.
The RON number is tied into the blend, but if the companies are spending more on the blend to ensure a resistance to knocking, to my thinking it makes sense that they would also spend a little more on the other additives too.

I'm not disagree that from a purely bang per buck argument there is little to be gained from a higher octane rating without engine mods, more that the "premium" fuels are more likely to contain additives that are a little more cosseting to the rest of the fuel line from tank to cylinder.

Noggy, was an option, but I decided that blowing shit up and cutting up dead stuff in front of bairns was more fun.