Date: 15-06-24  Time: 23:15 pm

Author Topic: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?  (Read 32966 times)

richfzs

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #75 on: 07 February 2012, 05:37:06 pm »
P2N, all makes perfect sense to me.


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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #76 on: 07 February 2012, 06:34:03 pm »

The problem is that most people on the minimum wage are on benefits.

Big wealthy companies, dodging billions in tax, paying big shareholder dividends and paying their board of directors millions upon millions of pounds in salaries, bonuses and pensions are shirking their responsibilites by paying  large chunks of their hard working staff the minimun wage (or just over), rather than a living wage.

The result is that we the tax payer subsidise multi billion pound businesses and their greedy bosses.

Nor is this any help whatsoever to our economy. 

Rich people hoard money, working people spend it. 

As for people who cannot work I do not believe that they should be punished for this by being plunged into poverty.

Nor is it possible for 3 million unemployed people to pick up the few dozen jobs out there.

People need to wake up to why we are in this mess. 

Is it those who are on benefits who have destroyed our industry, deregulated the banks, filled the pockets of the rich with billions, wrecked the economy and practically bankrupted the UK?

I don't think so.



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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #77 on: 07 February 2012, 07:24:42 pm »
Simples. God I wish I was Prime Minister.

 :thumbup you'd get my vote mate
 

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #78 on: 07 February 2012, 10:15:46 pm »


Quote
Bring back the workhouse, if you want something from the state, then give something to the state.


The modern version is the state pays a Private company to place claimants with private companies to work for free.

http://www.boycottworkfare.org/

As always the taxpayer pays to support the profits of private industry again.

I just applied for the summer maintenance jobs on the council.
Fully expect that wit cuts these real jobs will disappear over the next few years to be replaced by workfare type placements.

Start using unemployed to fill jobs for their benefits , you lose the jobs.
And end up with everybody as a state employee much like the old soviet system

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #79 on: 07 February 2012, 10:25:30 pm »
and also if the Tories get in for a second term I fully expect the minimum wage to go as well.
It's definitely an obstacle to employment in their world.
So we the taxpayer. will probably end up paying out more in benefits(tax Credits)
to cover the fact we have millions in jobs that don't pay a living wage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/damianreece/9042652/A-minimum-wage-can-be-beneficial-...-as-long-as-its-set-at-the-right-level.html

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #80 on: 07 February 2012, 10:51:26 pm »
Benefits should be there as they were designed, as a last safety net to prevent people starving. The problem now is that people can be classed as in poverty if they don't have sky TV.  I agree they should be capped, but I would have it far lower than £26k.


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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #81 on: 08 February 2012, 06:33:55 pm »
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Benefits should be there as they were designed, as a last safety net to prevent people starving.

I never knew that benefits were simply designed to keep people from starving!

NOT!

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #82 on: 08 February 2012, 06:43:03 pm »

YES!

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #83 on: 08 February 2012, 07:07:32 pm »
If you want to live a life of luxury with beer, fags, Sky TV, mobiles, etc, bloody work to earn it.  If you can't be arsed to work, then you've made your bed so lie in it.  Different if you've been working but been made redundant but most of the people that are going to be affected by any benefits cap haven't.

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #84 on: 08 February 2012, 08:18:27 pm »
Yet there is a severe shortage of jobs.

And the severely disabled are going to be targetted by these reforms.

Is that the sort of country we want to live in, where some of the most vunerable in society, those with severe disabilities, only comfort is that they will perhaps not starve to death.

Meanwhile big companies will continue to get away with not paying a living wage, so the biggest savings in welfare reform will not be tackled.  That's becuase it could effect some companies obscene profits and the massive dividends paid to wealthy shareholders.

Billions, if not trillions of pounds are simply vanishing into the hands of the stinking rich, while some of here gloat at the thought of some of the most vunerable in our society get by on starvation benefits.

Doh doh doh!

Quote
I reiterate my above point ...the tactic is working - almost all on here are working class folk, and we are fighting amongst ourselves.

Worryingly I find myself in total agreement with Pitternator. :eek

He's right the ordinary working man has been taken in by the crap he reads in his Daily Shit and Lies.  Too stupid to see the wood for the trees.





pitternator

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #85 on: 09 February 2012, 07:54:13 am »
VNA
Its no shame to agree with me. I was born working class. We lived on small wages in a council house. We never claimed any benefits other than child benefit when it came out. It was a great boon to my mum. I studied hard , got my A levels, and onto uni for a economics degree. I now run my own building company, since 1988. I see myself as one of the few who did get out of the mire. I say that cos it aint a simple task.Education was my key , and parents who scrimped and saved,and encouraged me in my efforts.My parents came from a solid working class society but one where people stuck together..What I did get from my childhood was an immense realisation of how the rich had no care for the poor. I lived through many tory governments, and each one resorted to similar tactics like this one. They want minimal benefits to reduce their own taxation. It is that simple.The rich dont like forking out for the poor.In some ways I can see the argument , but its a purely selfish standpoint since they have access to money , and by and large jealously keep hold of it. Whilst I am no communist , I do believe that society should attempt to share its wealth , and the rich help to support the poor and needy. What is blurred today is the growth of the welfare state and the 12 years of relative prosperity in the Uk till 2007 meant we didnt focus where the cash was going. Now we are hacking away at the welfare state in desperation to cut a deficcit, which in my humble opinion I am sure will be self defeating , and could end up with a greater deficcit. We have a spending dearth in terms of demand, but a growing welfare burden which reduces demand further. It is a crisis of confidence and it i skilling this country.. We should be focusing on how  we can up demand, cut imports as well as reviewing spending. So far all I have seen is this doctrinal purge of the welfare state and sod all other considerations. One cynic might say its the easy option , as it only hurts the non torys....I mean, cameroon will never be claiming benefit will he ?, and under his schemes, his private medical care will have easy access to NHS facilities..
Personally every one of us here should feel threatened by this government , it is a minority government whose agenda is really only focused on a minority of the population.
As hated as the lib dems are...imagine what the tories would be like given unfettered power !!
 
My biggest concern is not now...its the next general election , where I really can see  a possibility of the tories getting enuff votes to get  a majority ...as labour voters are brainwashed and  persuaded to vote tory , and lib dems lose popular support because of their association with this government.

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #86 on: 09 February 2012, 07:58:08 pm »
'...as labour voters are brainwashed'

Yep - that's why they're Labour voters :lol :lol :lol

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #87 on: 09 February 2012, 08:19:52 pm »
Some good points here but two more

Some people claiming benefits are only on benefits because they have been made redundant due to the crisis and the cuts- before that they may have never had a day off work but been chucked on the scrap heap.... and now I cant remember the other one  :rolleyes it will come back to me (its my age  :'( ) when I am not so stressed for working long hours for reasonable pay- I guess I am lucky I have a job .... still!
59 going on 57

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #88 on: 09 February 2012, 10:05:21 pm »
 
Quote
Its no shame to agree with me.

 But it's still a bit of a worry ;)
I agree with the general tone of your posts on this subject, but not so much of the detail.
Quote
They want minimal benefits to reduce their own taxation. It is that simple.
It's not quite that simple.  Thatcher part privatised welfare, in particular housing.  She got rid of the bulk of the council houses.  Now while working people could invest in their own property, though only later to find themselves totally and utterly priced out of the market, not many could invest in property to rent.  That was the preserve of the better off.  So the Tories, albeit Tories further down the chain than our elite millionaire public schools boys in government, are one of the biggest recipients of benefits, and a lot of what passes for private DSS rental property is very much sub standard.  There's a massive amount of wasted cash here, again all going into wealthy pockets.
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What is blurred today is the growth of the welfare state and the 12 years of relative prosperity in the Uk till 2007 meant we didnt focus where the cash was going.

You are right there, Brown's miracle economy , one based on ever rising asset value and no more bust (Gordon Brown must go down in history as the UK's worst ever chancellor) meant that nobody was paying that much attention to the benefits bill.  But even today that bill is utterly insignificant compared to the day light robbery and legal fraud being committed by big corporations and their rich friends.  And that is what is strangling the economy, not benefits payments - of course as you know.  Oh of course PPP has stuffed us as well, but with ever rising asset prices (not) that wasn't supposed to be a problem, but now it is, and a big foccing problem at that.
 
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Personally every one of us here should feel threatened by this government

Indeed, it's a disaster.  Look Blair's government was a disaster too, cos they wanted to be like the Tories, but now we have something even worse the bloody Tories themselves :\ .
 
Quote
it is a minority government whose agenda is really only focused on a minority of the population.

No it's not a minority government, it should have been, but it's not.  There was only ever one reason for the Lid Dems taking on a suicide mission and jumping into bed with the Tories, and that was to get voter reform for what is basically a dying democracy.  They failed, and now they will be wiped out, and wiped out for nothing.
 
They should have either got a guarantee of voter reform or left the Tories to it.  Despite the SNP forming a minority government in Scotland in 2007, and doing so because a party that had much in common with them - The Lid Dems - refused to enter into a coalition with them, the same party down south seemed to think that leaving the Tories to minority rule was not an option!  Of course it was, it was obvious and would have been a political master stroke.  As you say the Tories look after their own interests and only their own interests, such narrow minded selfish bastards would never survive a whole term of minority government and would end up being wiped out at an inevitable half term general election.  And just think with the hapless Ed milliband now at the helm, who seems to have become suddenly confused as to what The Labour Party is supposed to be about now that he's in the driving seat, well the Lid Dems might have even taken a majority!
 
So yeah you are right about the next election, as it stands we are heading for a Tory landslide.
And as for us in Scotland.  17 years of Tory rule, we never voted, subsequently delivered devolution. Scotland again is looking at 10 - 20 years of Tory rule, I think we'll bail out of the UK before the next general election.  Which sadly leaves England with a Tory government for quite some time. 



The only positive out of this, is that I think this is the last Tory government that will rule over me in my lifetime. :D
 

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #89 on: 09 February 2012, 11:44:48 pm »
The only positive out of this, is that I think this is the last Tory government that will rule over me in my lifetime. :D

Don't do it Andy, we'll all miss your wit and humour  :rolleyes
Better to stand and look a fool than speak and prove it !
If it aint broke, I'll fix it till it is !!

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #90 on: 10 February 2012, 05:55:35 pm »
Don't fret LT, I'll still be here.

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #91 on: 11 February 2012, 06:35:43 pm »
tax or spend?
labour, conservative or liberal?

Oh well, look on the bright side, at least the Greens aren't in power....  Cars banned, Bikes banned, windmills everywhere ....
Wonder how long it would take to get to work on a Donkey?  :lol

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #92 on: 15 February 2012, 07:15:25 am »
my basic mesage is there is no easy answer, but the burden of the spending cuts needs to be balanced across the economy. And it needs to be part of a package to revive the economy. Paradoxically I believe we do need to reduce welfare costs, but borrow to stimulate the economy. Any worker idle on benefit is a waste to the nation. Our welfare state does encourage single mums to have more kids, immigrants get full benefit package while domestic workers can get almost nothing, the list is quite long  ...there is just too much wrong with how benefits are assessed ,and lack incentives for return to  work. But for any return to work to happen, we do need jobs for people to go to.
The severe housing shortage should be addressed by a national building programme. This would directly stimulate the construction sector and have demand knock ons for the whole economy.If we had plenty of cheap affordable housing , private landlords wont have a noose on rental levels...
 
George osbourne is sitting in his ivory tower just like norman lamont did...and both are doomed to failure.
 
Personally I dont think brown was " worst chancellor" ..if you review his achievements over the first 2 labour  governments it was very upbeat. His issue was trusting Blair who basically sold him down the river, gave him the poisoned chalice...and I still believe darlings method of deficcit reduction would have been more effective and fair than this present government. Trouble is he was discredited by the bankling crisis, which in reality was not something I believe anyone could have controlled at the time. My biggest fear , like VNA is because demand management is discredited in the populaces eyes...osbournes methods willbe perceived as the only way out. Yes we absolutely have to reduce the deficcit , but in an imaginative and positive way, which the tories just cant or wont do.

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #93 on: 15 February 2012, 08:25:24 am »
Quote
Personally I don't think brown was " worst chancellor" ..if you review his achievements over the first 2 labour  governments it was very upbeat.

Not really - he mistook the unsustainable bubble for genuine growth (so when it popped we ended up f**ked) and also used a load of slight of hand tricks - some of the benefits he introduced were so universal that practically every family qualified, so if we all qualified for money from the government where did that come from? Tax of course! A big merry go round, tax to pay for the handouts we all got with the civil service skimming off a wage in the process. £10 tax -> £8 benefit  :rollin
 
Borrow for investment? Borrow from China to pay for more shopping malls to sell more junk made by China. Now China is rich and we are bust.
 
Time to curtail the tax/benefit merry go round. No more handouts.

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #94 on: 15 February 2012, 08:38:23 am »
What Brown got, was a tenure in No11 through some of the most benign world economic conditions in many years - and he was big headed enough to think it was all his doing cos he's such a good chancellor. No more boom and bust, my arse.

The man's a clueless w@nker, and Darling was no better. The way the pair of them dithered and didn't make a decision - any decision - for days during the run on Northern Rock made the situation far worse; for the folks queuing on the street, for the rest of the banking industry, for NR itself, for the tax payer (as it made the situation worse than it needed to be). Any decision better than no decision, but it took them days to do anything (guarantee the savers funds). Whether that decision was right or not is perhaps another discussion, but it should have been made (one way or the other) much sooner.

The man's a clueless w@nker, and it good to see that he's vanished into the ether since the election. Apart from an attempt to put himself forward for the IMF job (Government corridors around the world are still echoing to the laughter on that one), has he been seen / consulted on anything?

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #95 on: 15 February 2012, 06:24:03 pm »
Quote
immigrants get full benefit package while domestic workers can get almost nothing

That's a rather sweeping statement, and frankly one that is not true.

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he mistook the unsustainable bubble for genuine growth

Soaring shares, increasing debt level and soaring house prices should have had big loud alarm bells ringing.  Brown's miracle economy was built on cheap credit and rising asset prices.  It would be interesting to know how many times the world's worst (and unqualified banker) visited No.11, Goodwin was pals with Brown, and indeed it was Brown that got him knighted.

No these fools thought asset values could and would rise forever, that cheap credit was here to stay and that boom and bust was now a thing of the past.  What they did was create a massive boom and the biggest bust ever.  Incompetent fools.

Quote
Now China is rich and we are bust.

China is not rich.  In terms of wealth based against population the UK is stinking rich compared to China, however just like China the big bucks are in the hands of the few.  And they will hang onto it at any cost.    The difference is we can change it, but that ain't gonna happen while the working man frets about irrelevant welfare payments.

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #96 on: 15 February 2012, 07:02:31 pm »
From the Money Saving Expert site: I'm on benefits, but I'm no scrounger

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #97 on: 15 February 2012, 07:07:27 pm »
'China is not rich.  In terms of wealth based against population the UK is stinking rich compared to China'

You're confusing the Chinese people with China the country. China the country is very, very rich, and the rest of the world should better watch their arses!!

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #98 on: 15 February 2012, 07:29:20 pm »


You're confusing the Chinese people with China the country. China the country is very, very rich, and the rest of the world should better watch their arses!!

:agree - China has over 3000 Billion USD in foreign reserves, around 2.5 times that of the 2nd country on the list (Japan). The USA, by comparision, has just 148 billion USD in foreign reserves.

When you compare those figures, with the USA having the largest GDP $14,660,000,000,000 and China second with $10,090,000,000,000, there is no way you can claim China is not a very rich country.

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Re: Quick straw poll - the welfare £26K cap - good or bad?
« Reply #99 on: 15 February 2012, 09:35:29 pm »
And the USD is worth ?????  :rollin

Sooner we get back on a gold standard the better, then we will have some promissory notes that actually have a value.

Maybe we won't have theses bang busts then. because banks will actually have to hold the values that they are lending instead of creating numbers on a screen.

You know like the days when we had building societies that couldn't lend more cash than they Held,. so that they couldn't contribute to  housing bubbles.
Which is what after all brought this current pile down on our heads.

gotta love that Maggie Ronnie Liberalisation of the markets.