Cam chain noise.. again?

[davidkent]

Hi all.
Been trying to research this all week to no avail.

I have a noise that seems to have suddenly appeared.

I thought it sounded cam chainy, but I've recorded it now as best I could.

I've just stripped it down and removed the tensioner, checked it all out, put it back then wound the centre bolt in last thing and it adjusted.

the noise is no worse, but no better and I'm not sure where to go next.
I'm not sure how many clicks were left on it because I was a fool and didn't take the centre bolt and spring out first LOL.

Either way, don't want to spend over £100 on something it doesn't need.

The noise isn't mega, but does go with the engine revs and is annoying, and makes me conscious that it'll break.
I've tried the spirited ride trick and its still there, again no worse.
Its present from Cold and when Hot also.

Any advice?
Don't know where to go now

Its a 2003 Foxeye with circa 28k on the clock.
I changed the oil around 1500 miles ago.

Thanks

[darrsi]

It's like deja vu 
 
(read my post Cam Chain Rattle)

[davidkent]

Think I've read it, but can't find anything definitive.

Is this the same noise as yours, and so I'm right in aiming towards the cam chain?

[darrsi]

Think I've read it, but can't find anything definitive.

Is this the same noise as yours, and so I'm right in aiming towards the cam chain?

Yeah, same sound, it's quite distinctive.

[davidkent]

Sounds a nightmare. Tried it again and it's as bad if not worse. Chain time me thinks :/

[unfazed]

Were the valve clearances ever checked???

[davidkent]

Not that I'm aware.

May be worth noting that the noise seemed to start pretty suddenly too. Didn't appear a gradual start.

[unfazed]

Not that I'm aware.

May be worth noting that the noise seemed to start pretty suddenly too. Didn't appear a gradual start.

Simple enough to check and you can check the chain wear at the same time.

If the timing marks line up almost perfectly then the chain is fine.

Quite possible you have a loose valve clearances.

[davidkent]

Is there a guide on here mate? And assume ill need some feeler guages?
The metal slice type things?

[unfazed]

Buy a good set of feeler gauges, they should have these combinations in them 0.10, 0.13, 0.15, 0.18, 0.20, 0.23, 0.25, 0.28, 0.30, 0.33, 0.35 metric or 0.0035, 0.004, 0.005, 0.006, 0.007, 0.008, 0.009, 0.010, 0.011, 0.012, 0.013 imperial
Remove the Seat
Remove the tank
Take plug caps off and pull leads up over the the cables and wires to give space for lifting the cam cover
Remove bolt holding on the thermostat
Remove the 4 decorative cover on cam cover
Remove the rubber cover in front of the plugs
Bend back tab holding cable near Alternator/generator cover to free cable.
Take off Alternator/generator cover and tie it up
Remove bolts on cam cover
Lift the cover, might need a few light taps to loosen as it will most likely be stuck
This is where you need three hands

Take it out from the left side. holding the throttle cable out of the way and moving the thermostat housing a little to gain the clearance over the top of the cam chain. It does come out even though the clearance is only millimeters

The gasket is rubber and can be reused but grease it lightly on both sides before refitting

Now turn the rotor counter clockwise until the T mark lines up with the line where the top and bottom crankcase meet.

Do the deep punch marks on the top of the cam shaft line up with the punch marks on the camshaft caps, if the camshaft punch marks are not visable rotate the rotor one full turn counter clockwise and line up the T mark again. (Two rotations of the crank equal one rotation of the Cams)

Post a picture of of the alignment.
 
Download the manual and look at at the bottom of page 3-5 and page 3-6 and follow the instruction on checking the clearances.

Let us know the results

[davidkent]

Will do this tomorrow all going well.

Thanks for such a detailed response

[unfazed]

Check out my post here also http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9372.msg159835/topicseen.html#new

[davidkent]

Not gone thus far yet.
Just advanced the tensioner one click manually.

There was 3 clicks  left and now there's 2.

Started up and still noisy from cold so it's warming up now to see if that helps.

If there's still clicks on the tensioner am i right in thinking that's good news for the chain?

[davidkent]

Warmed up and the noise is as bad or worse.

Not sure what exactly to do. Suppose I'll let it cool and think about checking these valve clearances while the bikes semi apart..

Doesn't sound like that kinda noise Imo.

It's rather irritating none the less

[davidkent]

This correct? T mark with the crank case join at the front of the bike and the 2 dots on the cams with the mark?

Look a tiny amount out but trivial to me?

[davidkent]

Also, while this is off, how do I check valve clearances?
Is this further stripping or not too bad from here?

I have some feeler gauges its just knowing what to actually do.
Apologies for 10 replies in a row, just want this bike working, im terrified it'll break while riding and throw me into a bus or something, Being a relatively new rider, I doubt id to handle any failures..

[His Dudeness]

Looks fine to me. To check the valve clearances the best thing to do is start on cylinder one which is the left one as you sit on the bike. You need to make sure you're checking the clearance at top dead centre on the compression stroke because on the compression stroke the valves are totally closed so there's a "clearance" gap between the camshaft and the valve. You have two top dead centres one happens on the compression stroke and the other happens on the exhaust stroke. The easiest way to know your on the compression stroke is to look at the cam shafts as you turn over the engine. You know you're on the compression stroke because the lobes for the cylinder you're measuring will be pointing away from each other. Sounds complicated but it'll make sense when you see it. Make sure the tdc marks also line up as you did already and the lobes are pointing away from each other then use your slip gauges to make your measurements. To measure the next cylinder take a look at the manual it'll tell you to rotate the engine a certain number of degrees to take the next measurement, the lobes will point away from each other again on the cylinder you're measuring. It's easy when you've done it once. The tricky bit I think is judging how much resistance there should be on the slip gauge. That takes a bit of experience to know for sure but you'll get it close enough to make a judgement on whether it's in spec or not. It's on page 3-5 of this manual http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=8

[davidkent]

Makes sense I think. Not too tight but not so loose they flap about I guess.

I'll measure them now as the rockers off, looks fiddly.

What are spec measurements?

Thanks

[His Dudeness]

Have a look in the manual.

[unfazed]

Do you mean there is only 2 notches left to take up the slack on the chain or 2 notches from the front of the tensioner where it pushes against the guide or 2 notches left in these in the tensioner? 2 from the guide side is good 2 notches from the back is bad.

There is a some stretch on the chain as the dots are behind the cam cap marks.

Rotate the rotor counter clockwise until the marks line up again and check it the marks stay the same and do this about 4 more times and see if there are any changes in the line up. if there is any change the chain has tight spots which may be the cause of the slight rattle you say you have.

With the cams in this position you should be able to slide the feeler guage in between the cam lobe and bucket over the valve on the 4 valves on the 1st cylinder . See example in page 3-6 on of the manual

Rotate the rotor counter clockwise 180degrees and you should be able to check the clearance of the no 2 cylinder

Another 180 and check the no 4 cylinder and a further 180 check the no 3 cylinder

Valve clearance (cold)

Intake valve
0.11
0.20 mm Ideally the 0.11 should slide in nicely and the 0.20 should not slide in. If .20 slides in easily there is to much clearance

Exhaust valve
0.21
0.30 mm Ideally the 0.21 should slide in nicely and the 0.30 should not slide in. If .30 slides in easily there is to much clearance


What you are doing is really ruling out causes of the noise.

I presume you check the downpipes for small holes which can give really funny sounds

[davidkent]

Do you mean there is only 2 notches left to take up the slack on the chain or 2 notches from the front of the tensioner where it pushes against the guide or 2 notches left in these in the tensioner? 2 from the guide side is good 2 notches from the back is bad.

There is a some stretch on the chain as the dots are behind the cam cap marks.

Rotate the rotor counter clockwise until the marks line up again and check it the marks stay the same and do this about 4 more times and see if there are any changes in the line up. if there is any change the chain has tight spots which may be the cause of the slight rattle you say you have.

With the cams in this position you should be able to slide the feeler guage in between the cam lobe and bucket over the valve on the 4 valves on the 1st cylinder . See example in page 3-6 on of the manual

Rotate the rotor counter clockwise 180degrees and you should be able to check the clearance of the no 2 cylinder

Another 180 and check the no 4 cylinder and a further 180 check the no 3 cylinder

Valve clearance (cold)

Intake valve
0.11
0.20 mm Ideally the 0.11 should slide in nicely and the 0.20 should not slide in. If .20 slides in easily there is to much clearance

Exhaust valve
0.21
0.30 mm Ideally the 0.21 should slide in nicely and the 0.30 should not slide in. If .30 slides in easily there is to much clearance


What you are doing is really ruling out causes of the noise.

I presume you check the downpipes for small holes which can give really funny sounds

Couldn't find much in the manual unless im being poor.

When I take the tensioner out, I can pull it out to full lengths by 2 more clicks. it isn't fully extended, but in another 2 clicks it will be.

I've rotated it several times counter clockwise, and the dors stay exactly the same as they are in the pics, no different at all, if anything I've lined the T up a touch better and they've all been pretty much bang on.

The results I got are:

Cylinder 1 Inlet 0.15mm for both
Cylinder 1 Exhaust 0.23 for both (0.20 was easy and 0.25 needed a little more friction though not mega tight.

Cylinder 2 Inlet 0.13mm Both
Exhaust 0.25mm Both

Cylinder 3 Inlet 0.15mm was about right
Cylinder 3 Exhaust 0.25mm Both

Cylinder 4 Inlet 0.15-0.18 for Both
On the exhaust side, the valve closer to cylinder 3 was 0.25 but the valve closest to me was more like 0.23.

Are these reasonable, I'm trying to compare with your results now

Thanks

[davidkent]

Also, Downpipes are stainless, all seem good and don't seem to see any signs of blowing at the head end.

The noise did get very noticeable very quickly, went from sounding like a normal fazer to a toolbox of spanners virtually overnight if that helps

[His Dudeness]

If there's only two adjustments left on the tensioner it's time for a new chain unfortunately. The clearances are in spec so they're fine.

[davidkent]

Done the tensioner again, to be sure. That seems the case.
Ive pushed it in with something to ensure its tight but not too tight etc..

Had a feeling chain would be the outcome.

Whats going to be the best solution for this? Obviously a new chain, but any advice on this?

Assumably an engine out job?

Will riding it as it is do any major damage for the time being? as there's still adjustament on there, is it going to get worse?

ie can I use for the summer and take off the road end of summer, remove the engine and so on, or is my summer prematurely over?

Cheers

[His Dudeness]

You can probably get away with riding it. If you manually forced the tensioner on another click it'll probably make the chain quieter for a while and then it'll get noisy again. You can replace the chain with a continuous chain like the standard one that's in it and that will mean a full rebuild or you can use a rivet link chain and break the old chain, attach the new chain, drag it around by rotating the engine and then rivet it closed so no rebuild. The only disadvantage is you've got a riveted link which could be weaker than the rest. I've done this and so have lots of other people thanks to advice from Unfazed and I don't think anyone has had a problem but it's up to you how you do it.