Problem while shifting gear from first to second

[sasa78]

Hello,

First I would like to apologize for my bad English. I don't know exact technical words but I'll try to explain the best I can.

I am proud owner of FZS600 '98 a couple of months from now and recently a problem has been appeared when trying to shift from first gear to second; instead to enter in second gear, I hear a rattle noise and feel on my foot like a gears start to tear one another, the same thing when you try to shift gears on a car without pressing a clutch first. But sometimes it goes well, while the other times it goes into neutral and then I have to shift up again. And the problem only appear when the bike is hot, obviously cold oil has some influence.
The problem has appeared after a friend of mine lowered clutch  grip from end of handle to middle (free play is increased). Trying to get the grip back to end again didn't make the problem go away.
I am starting to become desperate, mechanics knowing Fazer are rare where I live (if there are any) so any help from other owners would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

[darrsi]

I would start by making sure the clutch is adjusted correctly at the bottom end, then tweak it at the top.
Screw in the top end all the way before adjusting the bottom end though.

[sasa78]

Ok, I'll try. Do you have some advice about adjusting the bottom end?

[darrsi]

Ok, I'll try. Do you have some advice about adjusting the bottom end?

 
Be worth getting yourself a hard copy of a Haynes manual, it will make your life a lot easier, and with pictures too. 
 
This will help for now (make sure you read Dead Eye's comments as well):    http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,10229.msg106413.html#msg106413

[sasa78]

Thanks. I'll try tomorrow, will let you know how it went

[Fazerider]

Clutch adjustment may not be the cause of this problem: if there's too much free play (so the plates don't completely disengage) then difficulty changing from neutral to first is usually more noticeable.
Second gear is a known problem area on the FZS600, but if yours has only just started suffering, you may be able to improve it by adjusting the position of the gearlever slightly... lowering it a few millimetres may help you make the shift more positive.
Beyond that though, some have had success with new return and detent springs on the gearlever mechanism (the bit under the clutch cover), otherwise it's a change of selector forks, perhaps the selector drum too ... and possibly even some gears themselves if the dogs have become sufficiently damaged.

[sasa78]

Ok thanks for suggestions guys. I still didn't made the clutch adjustment at the bottom end, after talking with a more experienced friend of mine he suggested to shift gears faster (while engine is still in high revs instead to wait to return to idle) and it looks like there is an improvement. Maybe this is normal and expected thing to do but as this is my first 'big' bike I have a lot to learn.
If it turns out that is not a solution I'll try with clutch adjustment and then maybe adjusting the position of the gearlever as Fazerider suggested.

Cheers

[darrsi]

Ok thanks for suggestions guys. I still didn't made the clutch adjustment at the bottom end, after talking with a more experienced friend of mine he suggested to shift gears faster (while engine is still in high revs instead to wait to return to idle) and it looks like there is an improvement. Maybe this is normal and expected thing to do but as this is my first 'big' bike I have a lot to learn.
If it turns out that is not a solution I'll try with clutch adjustment and then maybe adjusting the position of the gearlever as Fazerider suggested.

Cheers

Erm......what???
So, when you're in traffic, with low revs, what does he say to do then?
Just curious........


Adjusting your gear lever position is all good and well, but if your clutch is not adjusted properly in the first place then it's all a bit pointless!

[Fazerider]

Ok thanks for suggestions guys. I still didn't made the clutch adjustment at the bottom end, after talking with a more experienced friend of mine he suggested to shift gears faster (while engine is still in high revs instead to wait to return to idle) and it looks like there is an improvement. Maybe this is normal and expected thing to do but as this is my first 'big' bike I have a lot to learn.
If it turns out that is not a solution I'll try with clutch adjustment and then maybe adjusting the position of the gearlever as Fazerider suggested.

Cheers

Erm......what???
So, when you're in traffic, with low revs, what does he say to do then?
Just curious........


Adjusting your gear lever position is all good and well, but if your clutch is not adjusted properly in the first place then it's all a bit pointless!

The experienced friend is right: if the throttle is closed too far for too long the engine revs won't match what they should be for the new gear and he'll be in the realms of engine braking... that will put load on the gears and make a clean change less likely. What puzzles me is that if the OP has a problem with his technique, why was this not picked up on during the training and testing regime?

[sasa78]

Erm......what???
So, when you're in traffic, with low revs, what does he say to do then?

Don't get me wrong, but I guess if you are in traffic with low revs you don't have a reason to shift to higher gear?
 

The experienced friend is right: if the throttle is closed too far for too long the engine revs won't match what they should be for the new gear and he'll be in the realms of engine braking... that will put load on the gears and make a clean change less likely. What puzzles me is that if the OP has a problem with his technique, why was this not picked up on during the training and testing regime?

That is a good question. I can only assume I did as it should in the beginning. All I can remember is that, after hearing and feeling gears rattle for couple of times, I intentionally started to shift with low revs fearing I would make things worser if gears are in higher revs.
On the other hand maybe something did gone wrong. I am thinking about adjusting clutch at the bottom end anyway, it cannot be bad.

[darrsi]

You say it's your first big bike, what bike did you have before out of curiosity?
If you simply had a smaller engine geared bike then you would've been changing gears a lot more, so if anything a bigger bike should be even easier for you in comparison, due to less changing gears so often!

[sasa78]

I had 50cc bikes with automatic and manual shifts. I don't know, maybe this is just a Fazer thing, as I rode 1000cc kawasaki while training for license and a friend's 500cc KLE and never had problem with shifts...

[Deefer666]

Its nothing to do with the clutch mechanism. Its the selector forks on the shift mechanism in the gearbox that are worn, you go from 1st into 2nd and it'll jump out into a "non gear" and make a grinding/clicking noise. FZS600's are known for it and I have fixed dozens with this fault. Get it fixed ASAP as it'll only get worse and if the end of a selector fork snaps off and goes into the cogs it'll be a whole load worse.

[sasa78]

I've been on a little trip yesterday and here are some things I noticed:

When engine is cold:
neutral to first: normal 'thack' sound
1st to 2nd: no any problems, the 'thack' sound again
3rd and above: go smoothly

When engine is hot:
neutral to first: normal 'thack' sound, sometimes but rarely a little grind
1st to 2nd: sometimes the 'thack' sound, sometimes grind/rattle, sometimes 'thack' but goes into neutral instead in 2nd
3rd: less but noticable 'thack' sound
4th and above: go smoothly

I have a feeling like something is out of offset and cold and dense oil compensate this.

Deefer666 is this looks like your experience with worn selector forks? If do, is it complicated to change them?

I forgot to say in both cases shifting from higher to lower gear go without problems.

[Deefer666]

Sounds like the start of it, it'll progressively get worse until it won't engage 2nd gear at all. It is quite a complex job to change the selector mechanism and if you search the site you will see my guide to doing it BUT if you are not 100% confident with what you are doing then do not attempt it yourself because if you get it wrong it will knacker the whole gearbox

[sasa78]

Ok thanks. I don't know what is worst thing here, to find spare parts or skilled person to change it.
I have a friend going to England to his uncle periodically can you obtain this forks for me?

[Deefer666]

Where are you based?

[sasa78]

I'm from Serbia

I thought if you can send to his uncle and he would pick up for me when visit him.

[sasa78]

A little update: just found some topic discussing use of oil and found this post:

Yamaha quotes obsolete API specs as recommended oil.  These are specs that date back to the 1980's and 90's.
As far as I know all the genuine motorcycle oil on sale in the UK is manufactured to obsolete API automotive standards.

Feel free to fill your bike with the latest super high tech API SM, but you might not feel so great once you find your clutch is wrecked and you need to get your bores honed and new rings fitted.

I am using Motul 5100 with API Standards:   API SG/SH/SJ/SL/SM (http://www.motul.com/gb/en/products/oils-lubricants/5100-4t-15w50--2) is it possible that caused problems in the first place?

[Fazerider]

I am using Motul 5100 with API Standards:   API SG/SH/SJ/SL/SM (http://www.motul.com/gb/en/products/oils-lubricants/5100-4t-15w50--2) is it possible that caused problems in the first place?

That's fine, 10W40 is what most of us are using so you're already using a slightly thicker oil.
It looks more and more like the selector forks are the cause of your problem.

[Deefer666]

I'm from Serbia

I thought if you can send to his uncle and he would pick up for me when visit him.

Pay my flights and I'll come fix it, I could do with a holiday 

[sasa78]

Gladly if my financial situation is not so sad...

Thanks again for help guys. I'll try to find local fazer owners to see does someone know someone who understand mechanics. Now I know what to look for.

[Slaninar]

I am using Motul 5100 with API Standards:   API SG/SH/SJ/SL/SM (http://www.motul.com/gb/en/products/oils-lubricants/5100-4t-15w50--2) is it possible that caused problems in the first place?

That's fine, 10W40 is what most of us are using so you're already using a slightly thicker oil.
It looks more and more like the selector forks are the cause of your problem.

I doubt it is fine. Motul 5100 bought in Serbia is pure rubbish. I'd avoid it. Motul 7100, Bel Ray, or evene Silkolene, but do avoid 5100.




I also get rattle sound when revs are not right, not matched. 1st to 2nd. It has been like that for some 40,000+ kms, since I bought the bike. Doesn't get any better or worse. When doing clutchless upshifts I have no problems, as well as when getting the revs right. Now, having read all this, I'm not sure if I have a problem, or is it just normal FZS behaviour. Deefer? 




Edit: coming from 2nd to 1st also does rattling when revs are not matched, usually when going 30km/h+ in neutral, with engine idling at 1300 rpm and trying to put it into 1st. Slowing down below 20 km/h, or blipping the throttle, or just being slow and patient on the lever all do the job. But like I said, it has been like this ever since I got the bike (some 30,000 km, now it has under 70,000 kms and has been the same - not better, not worse).

[sasa78]

All I can say is the problem started about 100 miles after changing oil. I am now seriously thinking about replacing it as this is cheapest investition to try.

[Slaninar]

7100 10w40
http://www.e-mass.rs/proizvod.php?idA=12858&LID=zahtv86xhkh451b


7100 5w40
http://www.e-mass.rs/proizvod.php?idA=13063&LID=zahtv86xhkh451b



Motul 5100 from Serbia makes Honda gearboxes bad.