Author Topic: Chain snap :( (Read 10697 times)

limax2 · « **Reply #25 on:** 19 November 2013, 10:27:43 pm »

fazersharp. At a guess I'd say the clutch is just above the stationary oil level but the gear on the clutch might be in it. Either way when it's running oil will be splashed about all over the place and the clutch will get some and gears will get a good soaking. The clutch push rod is fairly well hidden in there and with centrifugal force wont see much of of the oil. More of a worry would be grit etc getting in if the seal was really bad. Unless you're thinking of riding in about 18 inches of water and the seal is not making contact I wouldn't worry about it.

Edit. Actually the gear on the clutch basket is above the stationary oil level and it is the oil pump gear that dips into it. Still the same effect though of oil all over the place when running.

fazersharp · « **Reply #26 on:** 19 November 2013, 11:03:29 pm »

I see - its not for my seal but for the OP to know how good his new bodge up needs to be. Although I was interested too in the workings

davidkent · « **Reply #27 on:** 20 November 2013, 03:17:29 pm »

When running i'm sure it'll be under a bit of pressure.
I have some better pics now, which I'll upload in a minute.
Limax, what you're saying sounds right to an extent, but the bit doesn't look replaceable at all, but yes perhaps a new seal and something to seal it well could work, personal experience says Chemical metal isn't all that great though, but surely perhaps some kind of instant gasket to fill the gap between the ovaled hole and the seal?

Pics may explain more in a sec

Cheers

davidkent · « **Reply #28 on:** 20 November 2013, 03:25:19 pm »

darrsi · « **Reply #29 on:** 20 November 2013, 04:46:22 pm »

Is that a 9mm sprocket nut i can see?

davidkent · « **Reply #30 on:** 20 November 2013, 04:53:13 pm »

Probably, though slightly irrelevant now as it'll be changed with the replacement parts

darrsi · « **Reply #31 on:** 20 November 2013, 05:26:21 pm »

Quote from: davidkent on 20 November 2013, 04:53:13 pm

Probably, though slightly irrelevant now as it'll be changed with the replacement parts

For anyone who's not sure, you can see in David's photo's that the sprocket nut is not flush with the end of the shaft and you can still see a couple of threads, the new 12mm nut sits totally in line with the end of the shaft so you shouldn't see any thread at all.

Sorry for slightly going off topic but it's a good photo to explain it.

davidkent · « **Reply #32 on:** 20 November 2013, 05:33:20 pm »

No worries, explains it a little better for myself anyway
Cheers

Hedgetrimmer · « **Reply #33 on:** 20 November 2013, 05:40:05 pm »

What was your experience with chemical metal? It would be interesting to hear, as a number of people have considered it for various fixes, but I've yet to see anything definitive on the subject. I would've thought it'd be ok in this instance, as the application area shouldn't need to take much stress of any kind?

davidkent · « **Reply #34 on:** 20 November 2013, 05:41:06 pm »

Just not holding, falling off and the like, as a general rule

Hedgetrimmer · « **Reply #35 on:** 20 November 2013, 05:47:04 pm »

No experience in this myself, but is it too delicate/awkward an area to build up a little weld on?

davidkent · « **Reply #36 on:** 20 November 2013, 05:49:49 pm »

The more i think of it the more i think this could be the option really...

Just finding someone to do it, usually material dependant - i don't even know what the crank case is made of, i'm sure it isn't straight aluminium, but a cast?

Hedgetrimmer · « **Reply #37 on:** 20 November 2013, 06:14:39 pm »

I have some experience of having a crankcase welded - not a good experience unfortunately.
I had a Kwak 750 H2 that wouldn't change gear - absolutely solid on the lever. Had the engine out and apart to find that the crankcase had cracked around the gearbox area. A friend of mine who was a pretty experienced welder had a try, but every time he tried to weld a bit, the heat just distorted and cracked the cases elsewhere. BUT, the cases on that bike were a really crappy quality ally, very thin and easily prone to cracking (vibration used to crack them around the engine mounts - they were known for it.) I think maybe the Fazer would withstand welding on the cases a lot better? Not sure though... $:\$

davidkent · « **Reply #38 on:** 20 November 2013, 06:18:26 pm »

Ah i see.
My local Yamaha Dealer did forward me on to some places for crank case welding if they'd split, apparently they'd used them before - Plus, as its a small area i can't see it being all too much greif really..

Worth an ask, assumably its cast and not just alu?

Hedgetrimmer · « **Reply #39 on:** 20 November 2013, 06:27:42 pm »

Not a metallurgist myself - I thought cast was just the method of producing the item, as opposed to extruded etc. But yes, just aluminium as far as I'm aware. Might be different grades? Now you need someone above my (extremely) limited knowledge

davidkent · « **Reply #40 on:** 20 November 2013, 06:29:25 pm »

I see,
I thought it was mixed with other compounds to make the 'casting' as such

I may be wrong however

Andy FZS · « **Reply #41 on:** 20 November 2013, 07:31:59 pm »

Looks like a 9 to me I seem to remember the 12 is flush.

limax2 · « **Reply #42 on:** 20 November 2013, 08:54:57 pm »

Some good photo's there David

.
The hole to hold the oil seal doesn't look too bad to me. The obviously oval part of the casting is just a clearance hole for the push-rod and as long as it is not rubing on the push rod or the bearing inside it doesn't matter what shape it is and will be o.k.
I take it you have not yet tried a new oil seal yet. You might find it is a good fit anyway. But you obviously need to do something about the retaining plate.
I think the main issue with chemical metal is having the parts to be fixed spotlessly clean.
On the subject of welding, is it the oval hole you were thinking of or the recess for the oil seal, approx 22mm dia? If it is that oval hole just leave it for the reason I've just given.
If you are struggling to get the push rod out it is no big deal to get to the other end, but you might need a new gasket for the cover. You just need to take the clutch cover off, then undue the six bolts that hold the clutch pressure plate and remove that plate. The rest of the clutch can stay put. You then lift out a short stepped push rod and catch the 5/16" ball bearing. (Strangley not a metric size). Then you can push the push rod from either side.
If you do it all from the chain side and you are not sure if the ball bearing has dropped out measure the distance from the end of the new push rod to the sprocket cover fitting face. It should be round about 32 to 33mm. If it is 8mm less the ball bearing has gone.
When I mentioned adjusting the clutch cable in a previouse post I should have said it is the adjustment opposite the push rod in the sprocket cover that need some care.
Keep us informed and good luck.

davidkent · « **Reply #43 on:** 21 November 2013, 03:19:58 pm »

Limax - You've just made my day.
So potentially, with a new oil seal, it should be fine?

My concern was that the oil seal used that to seat, but if it uses the larger outer edge to seat, then as you say it shouldn't be a huge problem anyway.

Also helps with the ball bearing - So basically, if i push the new rod on in, as far as it'll go, it should stick out around 32mm, if its closer to the 24-25mm mark with it stationary as it is, then the bearing has gone?

How does the bearing fit? obviously if i don't have to drop the oil and remove the clutch cover, i'd rather not and so this solution makes sense.

I was simply under the impression that the oval hole was what seats the seal and left me basically screwed - the back of the hole still looks round, its actually just the face that seems ovaled.

In short, replace all the clutch rod, seal and so on, stick it back together and it should be fine?

limax2 · « **Reply #44 on:** 21 November 2013, 04:07:47 pm »

You have got the idea Dave and glad I made your day

.
The ball bearing sits in the bore of the gearbox input shaft between the short push rod, at the clutch end, and the long push rod (245mm long) that you will be replacing. It can't drop out at the clutch end unless you remove the pressure plate and short push rod. It doesn't usually drop out at the sprocket end but it can do, especially with no oil seal there.
There is another ball bearing in the withdrawal mechanism but that is trapped in there so no problem.
If you do have to remove the clutch cover you can put the bike on the side stand and hardly any oil will come out. On the centre stand some might come out but not a lot.

"In short, replace all the clutch rod, seal and so on, stick it back together and it should be fine?" But not forgetting to check and maybe adjust the screw behind the rubber bung in the sprocket cover, especially with having changed the push rod. Details of how to are on this site somewhere I think.

davidkent · « **Reply #45 on:** 21 November 2013, 04:11:34 pm »

Right,

Thats all i needed to know then.
Thanks

Now, where can i get all these bits online? it just so happens to be pay day

Also, what are decent brands of Chain and sprockets? and original teeth etc?

Basically I'll need:

Clutch Rod
Clutch Rod oil seal
Ball bearing (Possibly)
Sprockets
Sprocket Nut and Tab Washer
Retaining plate for clutch rod oil seal (Assuming thats the bracket i've mullered near the sprocket?)
Chain

and is there a gasket for the sprocket cover?

Cheers

fazersharp · « **Reply #46 on:** 21 November 2013, 04:18:15 pm »

His ball bearing should still be in there because the rod has snaped where it turns to alluminium and is still in there as far as I know.

Dave can you post a picture of the bit of the pushrod that you do have

davidkent · « **Reply #47 on:** 21 November 2013, 04:19:37 pm »

I have 2 small bits of Solid pushrod, the bulk is still in there nicely

Will get a pic shortly

fazersharp · « **Reply #48 on:** 21 November 2013, 04:25:35 pm »

If you look at my picture you can just about see the retaining plate/tab, yours has bent down, you dont need a gasket for the sprocket cover ---- is the gereral consensus on this forum

davidkent · « **Reply #49 on:** 21 November 2013, 06:41:44 pm »

Yeah wondered what that was for lol
Sounds good - Now its just finding an online supplier and the bits - Then a half sensible chain and sprocket set

Cheers